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  1. #496
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    A nice interview with Chuck Dixon, Bryan Q. Miller, and Lee Garbett was just posted here:

    https://www.newsarama.com/46588-step...s-batgirl.html

    Lots of good stuff in the interview, probably some worth citing here.

    One thing I was amused by was this that I took to be a comment about the current Spoiler mask, even though it really refers back to to the original one too. (But - why go back? I guess the point is by the time of "Batgirl," the character design had evolved into something better, don't jettison that.)

    Nrama: What do you think of her placement in DC's comic books now?

    Miller: Never in a million years would I put her in a costume that covers her smile/smirk. Laughing in the face of danger – and danger being able to see that laugh – is 90% of her hero game.
    Thanks for the link - would have missed it otherwise! Glad someone besides us twitter fans and DCUniverse's twitter noticed and actually did something meaningful. That was a really meaty interview!

    Quote Originally Posted by Chickfighter View Post
    And that is why many of us loved Miller's take on the character.
    It was just so GOOD!

    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    Yes, that's also how I read it. That he has an idea for a Stephanie Brown solo series but where she would take on a new hero identity. (With more of her face showing, of course!)

    And @Chickfighter. I totally agree! That's really what I meant when I quoted that - not just that he didn't like that they reset the mask, but that in doing that they hid that personality.

    At least the ninja mask, when they draw that and not the full mask, lets some of it through.
    I still wish they'd given Steph a domino in the new costume.

    I wish DC were smart enough to give Bryan a title for Steph.

    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Too true. My favourite Batgirl.
    I mean, we are in the Steph thread, so clearly most peeps here are biased, but she was amazing.
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  2. #497
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Miller: Never in a million years would I put her in a costume that covers her smile/smirk. Laughing in the face of danger – and danger being able to see that laugh – is 90% of her hero game.
    And I think that's vastly underrating her. She is a whole lot more than that - at least she was at one time.

    I feel like sometimes later she 90% quips, and I really didn't go for that.

    Conceptually speaking, I also much prefer as Spoiler to her as Batgirl, though, so I know I'm in the minority.

  3. #498
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    I want him on a solo Steph title but I want "Batgirls" even more.
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  4. #499

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And I think that's vastly underrating her. She is a whole lot more than that - at least she was at one time.

    I feel like sometimes later she 90% quips, and I really didn't go for that.

    Conceptually speaking, I also much prefer as Spoiler to her as Batgirl, though, so I know I'm in the minority.
    What do you mean it is underrating her? Could you go into more detail on this?

    The interview was very nice, I wish we had more Stephanie in YJ but alas.

  5. #500
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And I think that's vastly underrating her. She is a whole lot more than that - at least she was at one time.

    I feel like sometimes later she 90% quips, and I really didn't go for that.

    Conceptually speaking, I also much prefer as Spoiler to her as Batgirl, though, so I know I'm in the minority.
    Not to mention her mask was incredibly expressive. Maybe not as expressive as she was as Batgirl, but it was still a cool visual.

    I don't think she should have an exposed face if she's not Batgirl anymore.
    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I want him on a solo Steph title but I want "Batgirls" even more.
    I'd be interested to see Miller write her as Spoiler.

  6. #501
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    And I think that's vastly underrating her. She is a whole lot more than that - at least she was at one time.

    I feel like sometimes later she 90% quips, and I really didn't go for that.

    Conceptually speaking, I also much prefer as Spoiler to her as Batgirl, though, so I know I'm in the minority.
    I think that Miller in his Batgirl run was writing a much more mature, much more settled Steph. She's overcome a lot of the injustice heaped upon her prior to War Games (and after, in the dreadful Fabian Nicieza arc of Robin). Plus, Miller is a TV writer, who was expected to write in the "Buffy" mold - very quoteable, very polished dialogue. It is a difference in style and tone, but I think the core of optimism and cheesy wit has always been there - with "A bad case of the Stephs".

    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    I want him on a solo Steph title but I want "Batgirls" even more.
    I've been trying to promote the Batgirls or League of Batgirls or Batgirl Inc for 5 years now! Everyone should get on board.

    Quote Originally Posted by uchihafanboy View Post
    What do you mean it is underrating her? Could you go into more detail on this?

    The interview was very nice, I wish we had more Stephanie in YJ but alas.
    There's a part of the Steph fandom (as far as I have taxonomically classified them ) that places a higher emphasis on her anger and her frustration, and thinks that her Batgirl run isn't representative of her character. I don't share that interpretation, but I think there's an element of truth to it - Steph does have a lot more anger in a lot of her stories before Batgirl. Batgirl represented a new stage of maturity and acceptance for Steph, leading to a new outlook on life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Not to mention her mask was incredibly expressive. Maybe not as expressive as she was as Batgirl, but it was still a cool visual.

    I don't think she should have an exposed face if she's not Batgirl anymore.

    I'd be interested to see Miller write her as Spoiler.
    Haha, Frontier is a big stan for the full face mask. I prefer a domino, but I can see the classic appeal.
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  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I think that Miller in his Batgirl run was writing a much more mature, much more settled Steph. She's overcome a lot of the injustice heaped upon her prior to War Games (and after, in the dreadful Fabian Nicieza arc of Robin). Plus, Miller is a TV writer, who was expected to write in the "Buffy" mold - very quoteable, very polished dialogue. It is a difference in style and tone, but I think the core of optimism and cheesy wit has always been there - with "A bad case of the Stephs".
    I hear a lot of Spider-Man along with some Buffy. And I think of Steph hurtling herself across town kind of like a Spider-Man - a lot more swinging than Babs has ever done. (Technically impossible, but even what Spider-Man does is impossible - when switching arms, the torque would pull the arm right out of its socket.)

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    I've been trying to promote the Batgirls or League of Batgirls or Batgirl Inc for 5 years now! Everyone should get on board.
    Yeah, and yet no Batgirl AT ALL in the upcoming Birds of Prey film or comic. (Though a Batgirl could come on board the comic later - I think that wouldn't be the first time that happened.) I suppose they're saving Batgirl for her own film? Is there any news about that?

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    There's a part of the Steph fandom (as far as I have taxonomically classified them ) that places a higher emphasis on her anger and her frustration, and thinks that her Batgirl run isn't representative of her character. I don't share that interpretation, but I think there's an element of truth to it - Steph does have a lot more anger in a lot of her stories before Batgirl. Batgirl represented a new stage of maturity and acceptance for Steph, leading to a new outlook on life.
    Bryan Miller did say where he was planning to take the story, and it does sound like there was going to be some anger involved:

    Nrama: Were there more stories you wanted to explore for the series?

    Miller: Absolutely. All of Steph’s Black Mercy hallucinations from the final issue are glimpses into stories I planned to tell. That said, if we had managed to keep going, her third year under the cowl would have been terribly angsty – very much on purpose from a character development standpoint. Though I wish the circumstances surrounding it were different, I’m happy we wrapped it up exactly how we did, exactly when we did.


    So in retrospect he sounds happy, in a way, that he didn't get to do that 3rd year. The way it wrapped up just turned out right. Imagine if he had messed up a 3rd year, and then the book got cancelled due to low numbers - and it just ended with no real conclusion. As so many books do, sometimes with just a few words in the final panel or two, and sometimes without even that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by millernumber1 View Post
    Haha, Frontier is a big stan for the full face mask. I prefer a domino, but I can see the classic appeal.
    And you were right, earlier: this WAS a meaty interview, totally unexpected!

  8. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohfellow View Post
    I hear a lot of Spider-Man along with some Buffy. And I think of Steph hurtling herself across town kind of like a Spider-Man - a lot more swinging than Babs has ever done. (Technically impossible, but even what Spider-Man does is impossible - when switching arms, the torque would pull the arm right out of its socket.)

    Yeah, and yet no Batgirl AT ALL in the upcoming Birds of Prey film or comic. (Though a Batgirl could come on board the comic later - I think that wouldn't be the first time that happened.) I suppose they're saving Batgirl for her own film? Is there any news about that?

    Bryan Miller did say where he was planning to take the story, and it does sound like there was going to be some anger involved:

    Nrama: Were there more stories you wanted to explore for the series?

    Miller: Absolutely. All of Steph’s Black Mercy hallucinations from the final issue are glimpses into stories I planned to tell. That said, if we had managed to keep going, her third year under the cowl would have been terribly angsty – very much on purpose from a character development standpoint. Though I wish the circumstances surrounding it were different, I’m happy we wrapped it up exactly how we did, exactly when we did.


    So in retrospect he sounds happy, in a way, that he didn't get to do that 3rd year. The way it wrapped up just turned out right. Imagine if he had messed up a 3rd year, and then the book got cancelled due to low numbers - and it just ended with no real conclusion. As so many books do, sometimes with just a few words in the final panel or two, and sometimes without even that much.

    And you were right, earlier: this WAS a meaty interview, totally unexpected!
    Well, Dixon has said he based a lot of his Robin stuff on early Spider-Man. And Spider-Man is very much a template for a lot of teen heros, because he's such a crystallization of the coming of age story. But in terms of dialogue, I dunno. The era difference makes it hard for me to quite hear Spider-Man in Steph's mouth.

    The angsty storyline is likely because it would have been dealing with the revelation of Steph's dad being her big bad again. I could see that being good - but the Black Mercy teases were mostly pretty fun stuff.

    I do agree that it is better to have the conclusion we got than ending mid-storyline, like Birds of Prey or Red Robin did. It's a tad rushed, but I still think it ties almost everything together. And it still unites most of the Steph fandom with "It's only the end if you want it to be."
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  9. #504
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uchihafanboy View Post
    What do you mean it is underrating her? Could you go into more detail on this?

    The interview was very nice, I wish we had more Stephanie in YJ but alas.
    I mean, I think that's there's a heck of lot more to her than her smile/smirk and laughter - to call that 90% of her game is ridiculous to me - laughing doesn't matter if the hero gets curbstomped two seconds later. I don't prefer the quippy version of Steph, anyway. She's very capable, of course, but meta-wise treated very much like a joke - a mascot or the "moral support" instead of a highly capable professional. You can say the evidence doesn't support that, and that's absolutely correct - canonically she's done some fantastic things. But I think writers do need to think on how the audience perceives characters, too, even if they aren't perceiving reality (or only part of it). Steph is perceived as at least a little flaky/airheaded/no-filter-on-her-mouth (which was absolutely not true early on), and then it gets amped up by next writer and so forth. I mean, look at fanfic or at Tumblr. Saw one listing all the highly skilled Batfamily - except Steph who was moral support. Or all their driving - Steph hits parked cars. Saw both of those in the last week. And in fanfic, she's never the primary hero in a plotty-fic - she angsts (they all do) or gets rescued or provides emotional support or regular-person-lessons to Damian, Cass, or Tim (not the lessons to him, of course).

    Now, I like her original characterization (though, of course she needed to grow), and she was not the happy/smiley one there. I also liked Tim's early characterization before he became Mr. Broody. It's like all his lightness went to her and all her darkness went to him, and they both ended up unbalanced to me. I know it's not like that all the time (and I'm really speaking about pre-52), but it's irritating. Mind you, I'm also still stuck on Dick's 1980s and 1990s characterization and Kon's 1990s backtory. Started reading DC in 2015 specifically for Spoiler (read her three Detective Comics appearances, then 100 issues of Robin, then branched out from there), and so was reading back issues, and I know I'm rather living in the past. I preferred Ollie's pre-COIE characterization to post-COIE. Batman's too, but so much of the angst and dysfunction the Batfam is tied up his later characterization.

    I also have a general irritation with how female characters get gigantic eye-holes in their masks to be attractive, and males are much more likely to have small eyeholes and white lenses where you can't see their real eyes. I don't like Barbara in a domino instead of a cowl, either.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I also have a general irritation with how female characters get gigantic eye-holes in their masks to be attractive, and males are much more likely to have small eyeholes and white lenses where you can't see their real eyes. I don't like Barbara in a domino instead of a cowl, either.
    In my case, I would like a domino mask for Stephanie. However, I would like Robin's domino mask type, not Barbara big eye-holes domino mask.

    That said, I don't dislike Barbara current mask.

    In general, I prefer mask that allow heroes (male or female) to show big part of their faces. I don't really like full masks.
    Last edited by Konja7; 08-22-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  11. #506
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    In general, I prefer mask that allow heroes (male or female) to show big part of their faces. I don't really like full mask.
    I generally prefer more covered, as it makes a better disguise. Though, of course, Superman goes without one at all, as do several others. And, of course, they don't let logic get in the way a good aesthetic (so many bare legs and high heels - not as many as there used to be, though).

  12. #507

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I mean, I think that's there's a heck of lot more to her than her smile/smirk and laughter - to call that 90% of her game is ridiculous to me - laughing doesn't matter if the hero gets curbstomped two seconds later. I don't prefer the quippy version of Steph, anyway. She's very capable, of course, but meta-wise treated very much like a joke - a mascot or the "moral support" instead of a highly capable professional. You can say the evidence doesn't support that, and that's absolutely correct - canonically she's done some fantastic things. But I think writers do need to think on how the audience perceives characters, too, even if they aren't perceiving reality (or only part of it). Steph is perceived as at least a little flaky/airheaded/no-filter-on-her-mouth (which was absolutely not true early on), and then it gets amped up by next writer and so forth. I mean, look at fanfic or at Tumblr. Saw one listing all the highly skilled Batfamily - except Steph who was moral support. Or all their driving - Steph hits parked cars. Saw both of those in the last week. And in fanfic, she's never the primary hero in a plotty-fic - she angsts (they all do) or gets rescued or provides emotional support or regular-person-lessons to Damian, Cass, or Tim (not the lessons to him, of course).

    Now, I like her original characterization (though, of course she needed to grow), and she was not the happy/smiley one there. I also liked Tim's early characterization before he became Mr. Broody. It's like all his lightness went to her and all her darkness went to him, and they both ended up unbalanced to me. I know it's not like that all the time (and I'm really speaking about pre-52), but it's irritating. Mind you, I'm also still stuck on Dick's 1980s and 1990s characterization and Kon's 1990s backtory. Started reading DC in 2015 specifically for Spoiler (read her three Detective Comics appearances, then 100 issues of Robin, then branched out from there), and so was reading back issues, and I know I'm rather living in the past. I preferred Ollie's pre-COIE characterization to post-COIE. Batman's too, but so much of the angst and dysfunction the Batfam is tied up his later characterization.

    I also have a general irritation with how female characters get gigantic eye-holes in their masks to be attractive, and males are much more likely to have small eyeholes and white lenses where you can't see their real eyes. I don't like Barbara in a domino instead of a cowl, either.
    Fair enough, I wanted an in-depth reason and I know you would give me one. A lot of what you say is true, especially she and Tim trading light and darkness. Which is odd, because in Robin, we saw a lot of her darkness. I don't know what happened as time went on. I fell in love with Steph from her time as Robin, that was when she was at her best IMO. She had both the light, and the dark.

    I wanted to see the dark develop in her and see how she slowly became Batman as Batgirl when her rage took over but I guess I will never see it.

  13. #508
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    In my case, I would like a domino mask for Stephanie. However, I would like Robin's domino mask type, not Barbara big eye-holes domino mask.

    That said, I don't dislike Barbara current mask.

    In general, I prefer mask that allow heroes (male or female) to show big part of their faces. I don't really like full masks.
    To be honest, if we're talking about her face as a visual appeal, I would give her something more like Barbara's since then you can still see her eyes.

  14. #509
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I mean, I think that's there's a heck of lot more to her than her smile/smirk and laughter - to call that 90% of her game is ridiculous to me - laughing doesn't matter if the hero gets curbstomped two seconds later. I don't prefer the quippy version of Steph, anyway. She's very capable, of course, but meta-wise treated very much like a joke - a mascot or the "moral support" instead of a highly capable professional. You can say the evidence doesn't support that, and that's absolutely correct - canonically she's done some fantastic things. But I think writers do need to think on how the audience perceives characters, too, even if they aren't perceiving reality (or only part of it). Steph is perceived as at least a little flaky/airheaded/no-filter-on-her-mouth (which was absolutely not true early on), and then it gets amped up by next writer and so forth. I mean, look at fanfic or at Tumblr. Saw one listing all the highly skilled Batfamily - except Steph who was moral support. Or all their driving - Steph hits parked cars. Saw both of those in the last week. And in fanfic, she's never the primary hero in a plotty-fic - she angsts (they all do) or gets rescued or provides emotional support or regular-person-lessons to Damian, Cass, or Tim (not the lessons to him, of course).

    Now, I like her original characterization (though, of course she needed to grow), and she was not the happy/smiley one there. I also liked Tim's early characterization before he became Mr. Broody. It's like all his lightness went to her and all her darkness went to him, and they both ended up unbalanced to me. I know it's not like that all the time (and I'm really speaking about pre-52), but it's irritating. Mind you, I'm also still stuck on Dick's 1980s and 1990s characterization and Kon's 1990s backtory. Started reading DC in 2015 specifically for Spoiler (read her three Detective Comics appearances, then 100 issues of Robin, then branched out from there), and so was reading back issues, and I know I'm rather living in the past. I preferred Ollie's pre-COIE characterization to post-COIE. Batman's too, but so much of the angst and dysfunction the Batfam is tied up his later characterization.
    I am curious what sets Steph apart, if you take away her upbeat attitude expressed through the quips? I think that she has a lot of traits that are great, but a lot of them tend to be shared by the rest of the Batfamily. Her cheer and joyfulness - not that she is exclusively that, but I think she has a lot more of those qualities than most of the other Batfamily members - are a big part of why a lot of fans like her or first came to know her.

    I do agree that there's a bit of "Steph was incompetent before she was Batgirl" that Bryan Q. Miller kind of accepted as the narrative going forward - and I don't think it's really true, if you read all of her comics before she became Batgirl. However, she did level up quite a bit when she came back from the dead and became Batgirl, so I view it as mostly an exaggeration to emphasize the coming of age narrative, rather than something outright wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Konja7 View Post
    In my case, I would like a domino mask for Stephanie. However, I would like Robin's domino mask type, not Barbara big eye-holes domino mask.

    That said, I don't dislike Barbara current mask.

    In general, I prefer mask that allow heroes (male or female) to show big part of their faces. I don't really like full masks.
    I think it's clear that DC doesn't really feel the need to emphasize the secret identity part of their narratives currently - Steph constantly takes off her mask in the field - and just assumes that we know it's a secret and we have to suspend disbelief about it. It's far from my biggest frustration with Big Two superhero comics these days.

    Quote Originally Posted by uchihafanboy View Post
    Fair enough, I wanted an in-depth reason and I know you would give me one. A lot of what you say is true, especially she and Tim trading light and darkness. Which is odd, because in Robin, we saw a lot of her darkness. I don't know what happened as time went on. I fell in love with Steph from her time as Robin, that was when she was at her best IMO. She had both the light, and the dark.

    I wanted to see the dark develop in her and see how she slowly became Batman as Batgirl when her rage took over but I guess I will never see it.
    I would love to see Steph face some really dark times as Batgirl (or Spoiler or any identity) - but it would really suck for her to get that story, but then the series got cancelled and she is left in that state for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    To be honest, if we're talking about her face as a visual appeal, I would give her something more like Barbara's since then you can still see her eyes.
    Thus my enjoyment of the ninja mask
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  15. #510
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I am curious what sets Steph apart, if you take away her upbeat attitude expressed through the quips? I think that she has a lot of traits that are great, but a lot of them tend to be shared by the rest of the Batfamily. Her cheer and joyfulness - not that she is exclusively that, but I think she has a lot more of those qualities than most of the other Batfamily members - are a big part of why a lot of fans like her or first came to know her.
    Firstly, I think they try too hard to "differentiate" the Batfamily members sometimes. They end up pigeon-holing them as just one thing. I've complained before, especially, about someone deciding that each Robin is basically one concentrated aspect of Bruce instead of each having a fully developed skillset in various areas. Tim is the Detective - so no one else is. Which is ridiculous. Dick's detective skills were highly praised for years, and then later he was kind of a flake, which is so sad. Tim was used to be well-rounded, despite having some issues, and became broody and miserable (understandable, since Steph, Jack, Dana, Kon, and Bart were all killed). And went from a smart kid to super genius. Here is a post I had with some irritation on that. Sometimes it feels like they can each only have one dominant emotion/personality-trait - instead of each being a whole person, they each have to be an aspect of a whole person. This probably happens more when they are together, but wouldn't swear to it.

    Also, I think later on sometimes (not at all always) something of Steph's demeanor gives the impression of being a bit ditzy/flaky. Not the reality of her actions, you understand, but the demeanor, the language. This happens to Dick some, as well, later. And I seem to recall it applying to cartoon Starfire, but it's been a long time since I watched that Teen Titans.

    What made me interested in Steph in the first place was that Batman didn't want her working in Gotham, but she did it anyway. She did not submit to his authority. The pregnancy storyline sounded interesting (it was okay, but sometimes went a little after-school-special). But mostly, it was that she worked independently, though in Bruce's city, and under no one else's authority. I liked the idea. So that's why I picked decided to read. As I read, I became more frustrated with Batman, and how he orders his family around (and they do what he says) and how he acts like he's the king of Gotham and gets to decide what happens there. I liked her because she was likable - it pretty simple. She was struggling for acceptance, had a mother she loved but couldn't rely on, was trying to find her place, and having some fun and trying to improve. And Tim and Bruce were not supportive, but she didn't let that stop her. Despite being rough around the edges and inexperienced, she was generally capable, if reckless. She's a bit insecure, and it's understandable that she is - in a professional sense because they keep telling her she is unworthy, and in personal sense because not only does Robin not tell her his identity, but he doesn't exactly invite her to hang out with Young Justice and him, either. He's in every piece of her life, but kept her walled off from his, and she doesn't know how important she is to him. After she finds out his identity, things change a bit.

    But since I really like the independence aspect, you can see why I'm not exactly a fan of her being Batgirl (or Robin, even if had been done to deliberately make her a failure and kill her off). She's become subordinate to someone instead of being her own boss. Heck, Barbara is even her teacher, too, so has some authority over her in that aspect of her life as well. I know that being accepted into the Batfamily was meant to be a promotion. But for me, it's a demotion, because she went from being independent to at least sort of answering to someone else. Worse, they treated her so poorly. It's Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer - you're supposed to be happy that all the reindeer love him now, but I want to tell them to go screw themselves. Obviously, the most mature, most self-confident reaction is just not to care anymore what those people think (see Jake Stone on the Librarians for an excellent example), but it's not necessarily as fun, and it's not really a place you think Steph would be at that time - emotionally recovered enough for that. Heck, I might even feel better if they said she'd earned Batgirl, but then it seemed like she was given out of charity, because she needed it. That I did not like, at all. It's one thing for Damian, and an entirely different one for Steph to me. And then, you know, sometimes it's like having the title makes her worthy of respect/regard instead of herself making her worthy of respect. And they (at least Barbara) can take it away anytime they want - just like Bruce did Robin. At least that's how it is in the early issues of Batgirl - it may change later, but I disliked the vibe enough I haven't read many issues (I did read a couple later ones).

    But mostly, it's because I read and liked the character, and then she had a completely different characterization. Personality-wise, she's like the same in name-only, almost. This happens all the time in comics. And so I have a lot of characters that I only like in certain eras or at least that I strongly prefer the characterization of a certain era and don't really care to read others (I gave list in a previous post). Here is a post about someone who finds New 52 and post-COIE Barbara to be like two different characters. A very understandable perception, IMO. I can sometimes feel similarly about late '90s and late '00s Tim and Steph. At least Tim has stuff that would make him act the new way (so much death) - I don't feel like anything that happened in Steph's life would motivate her to start throwing wisecracks and being extremely cheerful.

    I wanted to see the dark develop in her and see how she slowly became Batman as Batgirl when her rage took over but I guess I will never see it.
    I don't like dark paths and I certainly don't want anyone to be him. I don't even want Bruce to be post-COIE Batman. Got annoyed when Tim and Dick and even Barbara pulled some of his tricks. But I can't deny a lot of people love that type of story.


    I do agree that there's a bit of "Steph was incompetent before she was Batgirl" that Bryan Q. Miller kind of accepted as the narrative going forward - and I don't think it's really true, if you read all of her comics before she became Batgirl. However, she did level up quite a bit when she came back from the dead and became Batgirl, so I view it as mostly an exaggeration to emphasize the coming of age narrative, rather than something outright wrong.
    Thing is, she gets treated like this (by fans) in the present tense (and even before N52). She might have been canonically far less capable when she was Spoiler, but she was a far more serious character (in a day-to-day-interaction sense, not claiming she didn't have any angst later).
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-22-2019 at 06:37 PM.

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