Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
Firstly, I think they try too hard to "differentiate" the Batfamily members sometimes. They end up pigeon-holing them as just one thing. I've complained before, especially, about someone deciding that each Robin is basically one concentrated aspect of Bruce instead of each having a fully developed skillset in various areas. Tim is the Detective - so no one else is. Which is ridiculous. Dick's detective skills were highly praised for years, and then later he was kind of a flake, which is so sad. Tim was used to be well-rounded, despite having some issues, and became broody and miserable (understandable, since Steph, Jack, Dana, Kon, and Bart were all killed). And went from a smart kid to super genius. Here is a post I had with some irritation on that. Sometimes it feels like they can each only have one dominant emotion/personality-trait - instead of each being a whole person, they each have to be an aspect of a whole person. This probably happens more when they are together, but wouldn't swear to it.

Also, I think later on sometimes (not at all always) something of Steph's demeanor gives the impression of being a bit ditzy/flaky. Not the reality of her actions, you understand, but the demeanor, the language. This happens to Dick some, as well, later. And I seem to recall it applying to cartoon Starfire, but it's been a long time since I watched that Teen Titans.

What made me interested in Steph in the first place was that Batman didn't want her working in Gotham, but she did it anyway. She did not submit to his authority. The pregnancy storyline sounded interesting (it was okay, but sometimes went a little after-school-special). But mostly, it was that she worked independently, though in Bruce's city, and under no one else's authority. I liked the idea. So that's why I picked decided to read. As I read, I became more frustrated with Batman, and how he orders his family around (and they do what he says) and how he acts like he's the king of Gotham and gets to decide what happens there. I liked her because she was likable - it pretty simple. She was struggling for acceptance, had a mother she loved but couldn't rely on, was trying to find her place, and having some fun and trying to improve. And Tim and Bruce were not supportive, but she didn't let that stop her. Despite being rough around the edges and inexperienced, she was generally capable, if reckless. She's a bit insecure, and it's understandable that she is - in a professional sense because they keep telling her she is unworthy, and in personal sense because not only does Robin not tell her his identity, but he doesn't exactly invite her to hang out with Young Justice and him, either. He's in every piece of her life, but kept her walled off from his, and she doesn't know how important she is to him. After she finds out his identity, things change a bit.

But since I really like the independence aspect, you can see why I'm not exactly a fan of her being Batgirl (or Robin, even if had been done to deliberately make her a failure and kill her off). She's become subordinate to someone instead of being her own boss. Heck, Barbara is even her teacher, too, so has some authority over her in that aspect of her life as well. I know that being accepted into the Batfamily was meant to be a promotion. But for me, it's a demotion, because she went from being independent to at least sort of answering to someone else. Worse, they treated her so poorly. It's Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer - you're supposed to be happy that all the reindeer love him now, but I want to tell them to go screw themselves. Obviously, the most mature, most self-confident reaction is just not to care anymore what those people think (see Jake Stone on the Librarians for an excellent example), but it's not necessarily as fun, and it's not really a place you think Steph would be at that time - emotionally recovered enough for that. Heck, I might even feel better if they said she'd earned Batgirl, but then it seemed like she was given out of charity, because she needed it. That I did not like, at all. It's one thing for Damian, and an entirely different one for Steph to me. And then, you know, sometimes it's like having the title makes her worthy of respect/regard instead of herself making her worthy of respect. And they (at least Barbara) can take it away anytime they want - just like Bruce did Robin. At least that's how it is in the early issues of Batgirl - it may change later, but I disliked the vibe enough I haven't read many issues (I did read a couple later ones).

But mostly, it's because I read and liked the character, and then she had a completely different characterization. Personality-wise, she's like the same in name-only, almost. This happens all the time in comics. And so I have a lot of characters that I only like in certain eras or at least that I strongly prefer the characterization of a certain era and don't really care to read others (I gave list in a previous post). Here is a post about someone who finds New 52 and post-COIE Barbara to be like two different characters. A very understandable perception, IMO. I can sometimes feel similarly about late '90s and late '00s Tim and Steph. At least Tim has stuff that would make him act the new way (so much death) - I don't feel like anything that happened in Steph's life would motivate her to start throwing wisecracks and being extremely cheerful.

I don't like dark paths and I certainly don't want anyone to be him. I don't even want Bruce to be post-COIE Batman. Got annoyed when Tim and Dick and even Barbara pulled some of his tricks.

Thing is, she gets treated like this (by fans) in the present tense (and even before N52). She might have been canonically far less capable when she was Spoiler, but she was a far more serious character (in a day-to-day-interaction sense, not claiming she didn't have any angst later).
I mean, when you have a large family (as I grew up in), people do tend to "specialize" even though they are more than their differentiating traits. I just think that there's some specific things that most (but not all, as I tried to explain in my "classification of Steph fans" post earlier) Steph fans tend to love about her. The frustrating thing for me, sometimes, is that when a writer tries to put some things back in the character, the fandom generally rejects them. Tynion gave Steph a lot more anger, but was accused constantly of both hating Steph but also making Steph (and Tim and the rest of the non-Batman members of the team) a Mary Sue because they're constantly criticizing Batman.

There's definitely a tendency of fans and less careful writers of flanderizing - allowing one trait to overwhelm the others. But I don't think that means we have to throw out the baby of Steph's cheer and joy with the bathwater of "Steph is just Tim's perky girlfriend who is a clutz."

I do love that Steph is an outsider. She's the underdog. And I really appreciate that Tynion worked to give her some of that quality in his Detective Comics story - but he wanted to do so without making Batman as much of a jerk as he was in the early 2000s, so he had to make Steph make choices to put herself outside of the family. That necessarily makes her less easily sympathetic - but I think also makes her more complicated and interesting, as well as honoring her past continuity history.

However, keeping a character constantly down may make them sympathetic, but it also is really tiring, I think, if you never give her a win. That is what Batgirl was to a lot of Steph fans. I know that when I picked up Batgirl #1, I noticed it was Steph in the cowl, and thought, "Well, that's certainly some element of justice for what she went through in War Games." I think, though, even though she gained a support structure, she was still independent. That was the whole point of the Bruce Wayne: The Road Home issue. And in the end, though she had her friends help her out in #23, she faces her father alone, and wins. Now, you may not like that Bruce and Cass gave her the mantle - but I think the whole run shows her earning it.

I think you have a solid point that Steph's voice changed quite a bit from before War Games to Batgirl - and a lot of that is just Miller's style. If you watch his Smallville episodes, or read Smallville Season 11 - it's like Bendis or Tom King - he writes in a fairly recognizable way. However, I think that while he may have started out with a few gaps in his Steph knowledge, by the time he got one year into the series, it was clear he'd done his research, because of all the careful references to her history. Now, Miller's style might not be for you, or might not be for you on Steph. But it's kinda the nature of the comics beast when you have different writers all the time. And not liking one of them is totally fine.

All we can do as fans is try to spread the love, share our favorite issues, and continue to talk about her.