Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2019

[oasis1313]

This image made me smile. Thanks.

Looks a bit like one of my border collies.

[ohfellow]

Hi, 2 questions to people here who would certainly know the answers!

1. The mask.

I noticed in Detective #1000 two "appearances" of Spoiler, both with the full face mask. And, as posted above, on the variant cover of the upcoming Young Justice #5 too.

Looking back in time, it appears to me that the ninja mask came with the reintro to Spoiler during the New 52, and that the full mask was later brought back in Rebirth, maybe in Detective #945? Maybe as part of a new suit to offer more protection, including maybe against poison gas?

I think I saw a panel - Stephanie holding that full mask, then eventually actually wearing it. (Most of the time it seems she's not wearing a mask, so it is not so easy to trace the history of this if you aren't collecting all the books.)

Was there a fan clamor to bring back the original mask? I first got acquainted with Stephanie as Batgirl, so I am not as used to the full mask. (Of course Stephanie was Batgirl for just 2 years out of what I guess is a nearly 25 year history of the character.)

2. Batgirl + Supergirl

I vaguely recall some story where some version of Supergirl - maybe the one from 2004-2011 - meets some version of Batgirl, and they have an exchange - something like Batgirl tells Supergirl "I'm not the same one you know" and Supergirl says "I know, I heard."

I think Kara and Steph met in World's Finest #3, and then went to the horror movies together, as friends who already knew each other, in Batgirl #14. And I don't think they have this conversation in any of those stories.

What else could it be? Is there a panel where Steph is saying, essentially, that she isn't Cass? That timeline could at least conceivably happen. Cass, working as an assassin and hired to test Kara, met Kara many years before Kara and Steph met. But Cass wasn't Batgirl at that time.

I can't see what other combination of Batgirl/Supergirl versions might have had this kind of conversation.

So maybe I am remembering something else entirely, or have imagined the whole thing?

Anybody know what I'm talking about?

Thanks!

[Chickfighter]

You know, I can easily see Steph having a dog. She really seems like someone that would have one and take the dog running with her or something. Not to mention cuddling with the dog in her time off.

Yes, I am very much a dog person myself. Dogs are life.

I agree that Steph seems like a dog person, loyal and loving of her friends.

[adrikito]

Bat-family photo(except Cass the artist explained the reason):

bat_family__photobooth.jpg

[millernumber1]

Hi, 2 questions to people here who would certainly know the answers!

1. The mask.

I noticed in Detective #1000 two "appearances" of Spoiler, both with the full face mask. And, as posted above, on the variant cover of the upcoming Young Justice #5 too.

Looking back in time, it appears to me that the ninja mask came with the reintro to Spoiler during the New 52, and that the full mask was later brought back in Rebirth, maybe in Detective #945? Maybe as part of a new suit to offer more protection, including maybe against poison gas?

I think I saw a panel - Stephanie holding that full mask, then eventually actually wearing it. (Most of the time it seems she's not wearing a mask, so it is not so easy to trace the history of this if you aren't collecting all the books.)

Was there a fan clamor to bring back the original mask? I first got acquainted with Stephanie as Batgirl, so I am not as used to the full mask. (Of course Stephanie was Batgirl for just 2 years out of what I guess is a nearly 25 year history of the character.)

2. Batgirl + Supergirl

I vaguely recall some story where some version of Supergirl - maybe the one from 2004-2011 - meets some version of Batgirl, and they have an exchange - something like Batgirl tells Supergirl "I'm not the same one you know" and Supergirl says "I know, I heard."

I think Kara and Steph met in World's Finest #3, and then went to the horror movies together, as friends who already knew each other, in Batgirl #14. And I don't think they have this conversation in any of those stories.

What else could it be? Is there a panel where Steph is saying, essentially, that she isn't Cass? That timeline could at least conceivably happen. Cass, working as an assassin and hired to test Kara, met Kara many years before Kara and Steph met. But Cass wasn't Batgirl at that time.

I can't see what other combination of Batgirl/Supergirl versions might have had this kind of conversation.

So maybe I am remembering something else entirely, or have imagined the whole thing?

Anybody know what I'm talking about?

Thanks!

Sorry this took so long!

It is correct that Steph's new origin in Batman Eternal (particularly #20 and 24) featured her half-face ninja-style filtration mask, similar to the mask her father wears as Cluemaster. In "The Victim Syndicate" arc, she dons the full face mask, deliberately similar to her original Spoiler mask in the pre-n52 continuity, in issues 945-947. Batwing gives the new mask to her as a response to Steph being poisoned by Mr. Noxious, but I believe the real reason for the new mask was to indicate that Steph had become more closed off, more of an outsider to the Batfamily, similar to her original origin and her status quo for a lot of the time between Robin #100 to #126.

I didn't see a lot of fan clamor to bring back the original, but I did see several people, particularly Frontier here, who really liked that Tynion brought back the original mask, so it was clearly a desire from the fandom (and Tynion, who is definitely part of the fandom).

I knew about Steph since War Games in 2004-5, but I first became a big fan when she was Batgirl. I think her solo really made a lot of new fans, so it's not surprising that even with just two years, that look was so popular - so much so that it heavily influenced her current bodysuit.

With regards to Batgirl and Supergirl, that's an interesting question. I've gone over the World's Finest issue, and you're absolutely right, that conversation doesn't appear. I'm not quite sure if I recall a conversation exactly like that, but I haven't read a lot of Supergirl stuff. It might be possible that Cass had that conversation, but I don't have a distinct memory of it.

Bat-family photo(except Cass the artist explained the reason):

bat_family__photobooth.jpg

Very cool! https://www.deviantart.com/burningar...ooth-749383303

[Konja7]

Honestly, I would prefer the ninja mask for Steph, I've never like full mask in superheroes.

I think it's better if the characters can show some emotions in their face.

[millernumber1]

Honestly, I would prefer the ninja mask for Steph, I've never like full mask in superheroes.

I think it's better if the characters can show some emotions in their face.

I'm with you there. Especially with characters who tend towards the more cheerful, like Steph. Which is partly why I appreciated how Tynion used the full mask, to symbolize her being in a darker place.

[ohfellow]

I'm with you there. Especially with characters who tend towards the more cheerful, like Steph. Which is partly why I appreciated how Tynion used the full mask, to symbolize her being in a darker place.

Thanks for the insights! And thanks for your wonderful wikia. It helped me track down a lot of stories, and gives those "summary of Stephness" sections that help a reader get right to the heart of the stories. I hope you can continue to maintain it - and maybe even update the costume section now that you've covered it so well here.

I definitely prefer the half-mask. Of course the full face mask hasn't harmed the popularity of the Spider suite of characters (some of whom do have a ninja or domino mask, but most wear full masks). The sole Spoiler action figure I am aware of wears the ninja mask.

It is cool how similar the Spoiler costume is to the costume Babs made for her in Steph's run as Batgirl.

With Tim and Steph off to try to learn more about future Tim - the timeline where Steph and Cass were Batgirls - I'm hoping we see more of those Batgirls in the upcoming Young Justice. "A League of Batgirls." Ah what I wouldn't give for Bendis to write that! Meanwhile, send our Spoiler and Orphan to the other universe where they can get trained; so, there'd be a temporary swap of the pair as opposed to stories about dopplegangers hanging out together. When they swap back, our Spoiler and Orphan would return as fully trained Batgirls.

Heck if you can have 4, 6, 8, or 10 Flashes simultaneously (I lose track of who is in and who is out of the speed force this month), and a Green Lantern corps with several hailing from earth, what's wrong with a few Batgirls?

[millernumber1]

Thanks for the insights! And thanks for your wonderful wikia. It helped me track down a lot of stories, and gives those "summary of Stephness" sections that help a reader get right to the heart of the stories. I hope you can continue to maintain it - and maybe even update the costume section now that you've covered it so well here.

I definitely prefer the half-mask. Of course the full face mask hasn't harmed the popularity of the Spider suite of characters (some of whom do have a ninja or domino mask, but most wear full masks). The sole Spoiler action figure I am aware of wears the ninja mask.

It is cool how similar the Spoiler costume is to the costume Babs made for her in Steph's run as Batgirl.

With Tim and Steph off to try to learn more about future Tim - the timeline where Steph and Cass were Batgirls - I'm hoping we see more of those Batgirls in the upcoming Young Justice. "A League of Batgirls." Ah what I wouldn't give for Bendis to write that! Meanwhile, send our Spoiler and Orphan to the other universe where they can get trained; so, there'd be a temporary swap of the pair as opposed to stories about dopplegangers hanging out together. When they swap back, our Spoiler and Orphan would return as fully trained Batgirls.

Heck if you can have 4, 6, 8, or 10 Flashes simultaneously (I lose track of who is in and who is out of the speed force this month), and a Green Lantern corps with several hailing from earth, what's wrong with a few Batgirls?

Thanks for your kind words! I give a ton of credit to my collaborators on the wikia, and hope that it continues to be a resource for comics fans everywhere. I plan to keep updating with new comics appearances, though sadly it's like two comics a year at this point.

That's a good point about the costume section of the wiki! I am really bad about costumes, and I don't really have a handle on how to really update that section in the same way I've updated the timeline sections.

I have the Steph action figure who does, indeed, wear the Batman Eternal suit (they use the Jason Fabok illustration from Batman Eternal #24 as the box art - and I have the figure and comic at my desk right now - I also have an in-box copy of the figure at home). There is a Spoiler Heroclix (from a much earlier version of the game) that I have which uses the Dixon/Lyle version of the costume. In the Lego DC Heroes videogames, Steph's figurine wears the half-mask as well, but in the DC Villains game, she wears the full mask.

The Spoiler costume in Batman Eternal and onwards was designed by Dustin Nguyen, who deliberately lifted from Lee Garbett's Batgirl design.

I also think a League of Batgirls is the way to revitalize the Batgirl brand, but sadly, there's no one at DC with power to make decisions who sees the wisdom there. I'm going to keep talking about the idea, though, and hope that it gets enough momentum in 5-10 years that it finally happens.

[ohfellow]

I have a Heroclix of Steph as Batgirl, and that 6" Steph as Batgirl that for some reason "sells" for $100 or more now. (I put it in quotes, because it doesn't really sell at that price - a few sellers just keep relisting them.)

I suppose doing real justice to the wiki's costume section could involve even tiny changes from artist to artist, like if they change a pocket or belt buckle. But it could also just observe major changes that all the artists have to follow in general. (Like a new mask, or new colors.) The minor differences are from artist discretion/interpretation. For instance, it would be pretty easy to describe how the Batgirl of Burnside costume differs (radically) from the new one. But it's one thing to see the difference; another, to have the right words, the vocabulary of fashion, to know what's a gauntlet or a this or a that.


Nguyen did some really unusual and excellent Batgirl covers in 2011, and some good interiors too.

That series was blessed with cover art by the great Phil Noto, Stanley Lau (who has said he made is mark starting with these Batgirl covers), and Dustin Nguyen.

[millernumber1]

I have a Heroclix of Steph as Batgirl, and that 6" Steph as Batgirl that for some reason "sells" for $100 or more now. (I put it in quotes, because it doesn't really sell at that price - a few sellers just keep relisting them.)

I suppose doing real justice to the wiki's costume section could involve even tiny changes from artist to artist, like if they change a pocket or belt buckle. But it could also just observe major changes that all the artists have to follow in general. (Like a new mask, or new colors.) The minor differences are from artist discretion/interpretation. For instance, it would be pretty easy to describe how the Batgirl of Burnside costume differs (radically) from the new one. But it's one thing to see the difference; another, to have the right words, the vocabulary of fashion, to know what's a gauntlet or a this or a that.


Nguyen did some really unusual and excellent Batgirl covers in 2011, and some good interiors too.

That series was blessed with cover art by the great Phil Noto, Stanley Lau (who has said he made is mark starting with these Batgirl covers), and Dustin Nguyen.

Yeah, I'm still kicking myself for not getting Steph's 6 inch Batgirl figure in 2011/2012 when it was in the stores. That's why I bought two Steph Spoiler figures (one on Ebay for 30 bucks, the other I found at Walmart and snapped it up for 18).

I also have two HeroClix of Steph as Batgirl, one as Spoiler, and one as Robin.

The wikia founder, nevermore999, did do the kind of tiny changes from artist to artist, which I think intimidates me. If I just did a quick section on her N52 and Rebirth costumes, I probably wouldn't have too much trouble.

It's a strange thing, working on the wiki. When there's a lot of updates, it's harder to get motivated to look outside the major projects (I made thousands and thousands of edits to update the timeline sections in 2014-2015, and was pretty active from 2016-2018, during Tynion's run), but since May 2018, it's been so hard to be super motivated when DC clearly doesn't care about Steph. But I should get back into it. Maybe just do a little edit every day.

Steph had some of the best covers for her Batgirl run - the first 7 Noto covers, the gorgeous Artgerm run during The Flood, and then Nguyen doing all of the covers from 15-24. I wish we had Steph in a regular series that Artgerm could do variants for today .

[SneakyLookingSort]

Honestly, I would prefer the ninja mask for Steph, I've never like full mask in superheroes.

I think it's better if the characters can show some emotions in their face.

It used to be no problem:


But of course these days Jim Lee imitation and pinup poses with facial expressions ranging from :I to >:I is considered "good" art so what do I know.

[millernumber1]

It used to be no problem:


But of course these days Jim Lee imitation and pinup poses with facial expressions ranging from :I to >:I is considered "good" art so what do I know.

I think you have a point - I think if we had a wider range of art styles, from this type of really cartoony stuff (I really love this issue - it's one of the few issues of Cass's series that I own) to the more "house style" of fairly realistic, it wouldn't be bad. I'm going to be very interested in seeing what Kris Anka does on Young Justice #5 with Steph and Tim - his variant cover is pretty encouraging, I think.

But today, the standard seems to be from "fairly realistic" to "fairly realistic". Don't get me wrong - I adore Jason Fabok and Alvaro Martinez-Bueno, but it'd be nice if we had more heirs to the Dustin Nguyen style as up and coming artists. I suppose Pat Gleason is also more cartoony, but I don't see as many people working in that line.

[Pohzee]

I think the ninja mask exposes the wrong half of the face to capture expressions. White comic eyes can be used to exaggerate expressions, but it's more difficult to show someone smiling or laughing with their mouth covered.

[millernumber1]

I think the ninja mask exposes the wrong half of the face to capture expressions. White comic eyes can be used to exaggerate expressions, but it's more difficult to show someone smiling or laughing with their mouth covered.

I agree - I wish Nguyen had gone with a domino mask instead of the ninja mask, but I think it was related to the Cluemaster design they went with.