Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2019

[ohfellow]

That's right. There's clearly something going on in Bendis's collaborative ongoing narrative push that includes things from pre-Flashpoint bleeding into the current continuity.

I don't quite understand why they'd keep Steph as Robin and remove Steph as Batgirl. But I also don't understand why they killed Steph off and erased her. So clearly Didio and Harras think extremely differently than me.

I agree with you that there is ROOM for Steph to be Batgirl. Whether or not DC is willing to accept it? That's another issue altogether.

Returning Babs sooner just...frustrates me, both because I love her as Oracle so much, and because at this point, it seems almost completely motivated by spite on editorial's part towards Steph.

Is it that they want Cass to be Batgirl for 5 years - G3 years 7-11 - and then Barbara? Cass's solo title alone did run 6 years, until 2006, and the character continued to exist through 2009. (Or did she? She was with the League of Assassins in One Year Later - when was she reinstated as Batgirl?)

I don't know when she first appeared. But is it safe to say Cass was Batgirl for at least a decade? And now the Cass/Batgirl DC Ink book is about to appear. So, Cass as Batgirl is much more prominent in DC publishing history, though what was the elapsed time assumed to be? (A story can take place over a few days or a week but take a year to be published.)

In this chart, Cass can only be Batgirl for 5 years, and they can't chop much of that out for Steph without "elevating" Steph to Cass's level. I guess they could split it up as 4 years and 1 year. Or 4 years 11 months, relegating Steph to a very short storyline, more like her actual time spent as Robin - brief. Something like "Cass doesn't feel well, so Steph takes over for her for a few days." That's not nothing! To be part of the timeline even like that would mean it "happened." Maybe a day or two, and most of it spent under the influence of Black Mercy. I mean, gooperangs obviously can't really exist. Has to have been a dream.

But so much is missing - are they suggesting Steph was Robin for 5 years, years 9-13, until Damian debuts in year 14? That seems unlikely.

I think there is a lot that is missing and a lot that will change. All of it can change until the very specific storylines matter - unless there are stories directly involving a Batgirl in the era just before Barbara returns, this can be left open indefinitely.

[ohfellow]

Now, DC is including Cassandra in Birds of Prey (which will have a film). So, of course, DC makes Cassandra to be Batgirl again.

I missed that. Cass will be in BoP? As Batgirl? Oh - the plot summary says as a young girl threatened by Black Mask. Does that set up Cass as Batgirl by the end of the film, or in a subsequent film? How young a girl is she supposed to be?

[millernumber1]

I don't deny that. I just don't think that's the main reason this time

I mean, Didio has shown his spite towards Cassandra too, but she has recovered her time as Batgirl this time.

We shall see. I think when someone has been directly responsible for killing and then erasing a character, and then you do a third thing which deletes or erases one of her most popular stories, there's a bit of Importance of Being Earnest at play - to lose one Stephanie Brown might be considered an accident. To lose two begins to look like carelessness.

[Konja7]

I missed that. Cass will be in BoP? As Batgirl? Oh - the plot summary says as a young girl threatened by Black Mask. Does that set up Cass as Batgirl by the end of the film, or in a subsequent film? How young a girl is she supposed to be?

Cassandra will appear in the film "Birds of Prey", we don't know if she will be Batgirl in this.

However, the new mini "Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey" includes Cassandra and they call her Batgirl.

https://www.newsarama.com/47232-aman...bel-title.html

"With Harley finally done with The Joker, she’s moving forward with her life (as only she can) until she’s beset by a rogue’s gallery of Gotham City’s worst villains, the target of a $10,000,000 bounty placed on her head by the Clown Prince of Crime," reads DC's description of the book. "It will take the help of Black Canary, Cassandra Cain (a.k.a. Batgirl), Renee Montoya, and the Huntress to help Harley and get to the bottom of why The Joker has turned Gotham’s worst loose on her."


PS: Of course, it could be like Young Justice promotion where Tim wasn't really Robin (he was Red Robin), but he was promoted like Robin out of universe.

[millernumber1]

Is it that they want Cass to be Batgirl for 5 years - G3 years 7-11 - and then Barbara? Cass's solo title alone did run 6 years, until 2006, and the character continued to exist through 2009. (Or did she? She was with the League of Assassins in One Year Later - when was she reinstated as Batgirl?)

I don't know when she first appeared. But is it safe to say Cass was Batgirl for at least a decade? And now the Cass/Batgirl DC Ink book is about to appear. So, Cass as Batgirl is much more prominent in DC publishing history, though what was the elapsed time assumed to be? (A story can take place over a few days or a week but take a year to be published.)

In this chart, Cass can only be Batgirl for 5 years, and they can't chop much of that out for Steph without "elevating" Steph to Cass's level. I guess they could split it up as 4 years and 1 year. Or 4 years 11 months, relegating Steph to a very short storyline, more like her actual time spent as Robin - brief. Something like "Cass doesn't feel well, so Steph takes over for her for a few days." That's not nothing! To be part of the timeline even like that would mean it "happened." Maybe a day or two, and most of it spent under the influence of Black Mercy. I mean, gooperangs obviously can't really exist. Has to have been a dream.

But so much is missing - are they suggesting Steph was Robin for 5 years, years 9-13, until Damian debuts in year 14? That seems unlikely.

I think there is a lot that is missing and a lot that will change. All of it can change until the very specific storylines matter - unless there are stories directly involving a Batgirl in the era just before Barbara returns, this can be left open indefinitely.

I think it's really tricky, even with "generations" being 15 years, to have such long runs of characters if you're trying to keep everything within the timeline of that generation. Steph was Batgirl for about a year, even though her title ran for two. Cass returned to being Batgirl after the horrible Evil Cass storyline in about 2007ish, with Batman and the Outsiders, Batgirl: Redemption Road, and a few other cameo titles.

I think Steph taking over for Cass even for a few months would be better than her never being Batgirl at all, but there's clearly room for Steph to have a year as Batgirl, as I laid out before, and I think refusing to include her is just meanspirited.

Also, gooperangs are just as plausible as Spider-Man's web fluid, so I'm totally okay with them. Especially the icy-flamy-goopy-shock-erangs.

I missed that. Cass will be in BoP? As Batgirl? Oh - the plot summary says as a young girl threatened by Black Mask. Does that set up Cass as Batgirl by the end of the film, or in a subsequent film? How young a girl is she supposed to be?

I think it's extremely unlikely that Cass will be Batgirl, given that Gail Simone is saying that Barbara is going to be part of the movies in some capacity soon.

Which is moronic. I think DC could make a boatload of money off of a League of Batgirls film. No one knows who Steph and Cass are? Well, at one point, no one knew who anyone was. You have to introduce characters sometime! Just look at how Into the Spider-Verse did it! You really think a lot of people knew who Spider-Gwen was?

[Dataweaver]

My guess is that all will be revealed on December 18, with the release of Doomsday Clock #12. Just speculating here; but I think what's going to happen is that the encounter between Superman and Dr. Manhattan will result in something of a “Superman Reborn” style alteration of the timeline, and what Didio has been showing will be officially published at that time as the DCU's new official timeline. Heck, it might even be the back pages of that issue.

I'm speculating here; but I think DC may be going to the opposite extreme from what they did with New 52: N52 was an attempt to streamline and simplify the DCU timeline, knocking a whole bunch of stuff out of continuity in the process. In contrast, this has the feeling of DC trying to get as close to saying “it all happened!” as possible while still maintaining a single consistent timeline. That is, I think the primary goal here is to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

If I'm right, then I expect all of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history to be restored, even if it's at the cost of the Eternal storylines, in much the same way that Tim got his pre-Flashpoint origin back after Superman Reborn. If so, it does leave us with the question of why she gave up being Batgirl and went back to being Spoiler…

[millernumber1]

My guess is that all will be revealed on December 18, with the release of Doomsday Clock #12. Just speculating here; but I think what's going to happen is that the encounter between Superman and Dr. Manhattan will result in something of a “Superman Reborn” style alteration of the timeline, and what Didio has been showing will be officially published at that time as the DCU's new official timeline. Heck, it might even be the back pages of that issue.

I'm speculating here; but I think DC may be going to the opposite extreme from what they did with New 52: N52 was an attempt to streamline and simplify the DCU timeline, knocking a whole bunch of stuff out of continuity in the process. In contrast, this has the feeling of DC trying to get as close to saying “it all happened!” as possible while still maintaining a single consistent timeline. That is, I think the primary goal here is to be inclusive rather than exclusive.

If I'm right, then I expect all of Stephanie's pre-Flashpoint history to be restored, even if it's at the cost of the Eternal storylines, in much the same way that Tim got his pre-Flashpoint origin back after Superman Reborn. If so, it does leave us with the question of why she gave up being Batgirl and went back to being Spoiler…

Well, the idea that Steph "filled in" for Cass, and then Babs got her legs back, would actually make a lot of sense.

That being said.

Steph actually being Batgirl. Straight up. No fill ins. No replacements. Just earning it.

That story? The one we got? That will never go away, no matter how DC tries to make us think it will.

[ohfellow]

Cassandra will appear in the film "Birds of Prey", we don't know if she will be Batgirl in this.

However, the new mini "Harley Quinn and the Birds of Prey" includes Cassandra and they call her Batgirl.

https://www.newsarama.com/47232-aman...bel-title.html

"With Harley finally done with The Joker, she’s moving forward with her life (as only she can) until she’s beset by a rogue’s gallery of Gotham City’s worst villains, the target of a $10,000,000 bounty placed on her head by the Clown Prince of Crime," reads DC's description of the book. "It will take the help of Black Canary, Cassandra Cain (a.k.a. Batgirl), Renee Montoya, and the Huntress to help Harley and get to the bottom of why The Joker has turned Gotham’s worst loose on her."


PS: Of course, it could be like Young Justice promotion where Tim wasn't really Robin (he was Red Robin), but he was promoted like Robin out of universe.

I'm mixed up. A monthly Birds of Prey title, including Harley Quinn, was at one time going to debut this month, written by Brian Azzarello and drawn by Emanuela Lupacchino. Black and white preview pages appeared (and of course this was solicited along with covers). That title was cancelled or postponed, to be replaced by a Black Label title whose release would correspond to the film and its R rating.

I was pretty sure Azzarello was still attached, but never heard if Lupacchino was too.

So now, what's this? There aren't going to be two Black Label Birds of Prey comics coming out in February by two different creative teams, are there? Is the monthly going to appear later after the Black Label mini? Was the BoP book always supposed to be a mini?

I wanted what was proposed more than I want this one.

Amanda Conner is fine, to a point. I used to like her a lot, but not since she decided to draw everyone with crossed eyes. Maybe there are fans out there who like that choice. After all, even Picasso has his fans!

But I love everything Lupacchino does.

It's out of continuity, obviously, and not just because of Cass - unless it's set in the distant past. Has anything under Black Label been in continuity?

[ohfellow]

Also, gooperangs are just as plausible as Spider-Man's web fluid, so I'm totally okay with them. Especially the icy-flamy-goopy-shock-erangs.

Oh, I know, I was kidding. I was more than ok with them. I loved her variety of batarangs, and the batarang factory Barbara set up for her that pressed out varieties of batarangs like - well, like a waffle iron!

Truth is, and maybe I've written this before, I think of Stephanie's Batgirl as a Spider-Family type of character. She swung around (implausibly) on her grappling hooks much more than Barbara does (and did she even have a large grappling gun? I don't think so), and she tossed out 6 or 8 little batarangs seemingly at once - and I thought of the goop as web fluid.

[millernumber1]

I'm mixed up. A monthly Birds of Prey title, including Harley Quinn, was at one time going to debut this month, written by Brian Azzarello and drawn by Emanuela Lupacchino. Black and white preview pages appeared (and of course this was solicited along with covers). That title was cancelled or postponed, to be replaced by a Black Label title whose release would correspond to the film and its R rating.

I was pretty sure Azzarello was still attached, but never heard if Lupacchino was too.

So now, what's this? There aren't going to be two Black Label Birds of Prey comics coming out in February by two different creative teams, are there? Is the monthly going to appear later after the Black Label mini? Was the BoP book always supposed to be a mini?

I wanted what was proposed more than I want this one.

Amanda Conner is fine, to a point. I used to like her a lot, but not since she decided to draw everyone with crossed eyes. Maybe there are fans out there who like that choice. After all, even Picasso has his fans!

But I love everything Lupacchino does.

It's out of continuity, obviously, and not just because of Cass - unless it's set in the distant past. Has anything under Black Label been in continuity?

Not yet, though there were plans to re-release Batman Year One as Black Label. I dunno if they ever did that.

I'm really sad we've never gotten Lupacchino drawing Steph.

[millernumber1]

Oh, I know, I was kidding. I was more than ok with them. I loved her variety of batarangs, and the batarang factory Barbara set up for her that pressed out varieties of batarangs like - well, like a waffle iron!

Truth is, and maybe I've written this before, I think of Stephanie's Batgirl as a Spider-Family type of character. She swung around (implausibly) on her grappling hooks much more than Barbara does (and did she even have a large grappling gun? I don't think so), and she tossed out 6 or 8 little batarangs seemingly at once - and I thought of the goop as web fluid.

There's always been a similarity between younger street level heroes and Spider-Man. I've heard the comparison quite a bit for Babs, Tim, Steph, and many other Bat characters in their younger and usually more hopeful days.

And now Steph and Tim are being written by the guy who wrote Ultimate Spider-man!

[GaryFisher]

I wonder how Convergence will be fit into the new timeline. Theoretically they said all what had happened is canon, so is Convergence. And we all know New Earth BatSteph is part of the event, having her own title.

[millernumber1]

I wonder how Convergence will be fit into the new timeline. Theoretically they said all what had happened is canon, so is Convergence. And we all know New Earth BatSteph is part of the event, having her own title.

Well, Bendis made Convergence part of the Seven Crises, so...maybe it'll be remembered?

[GaryFisher]

Well, Bendis made Convergence part of the Seven Crises, so...maybe it'll be remembered?

Seven Crises? Isn't it the title of the first arc of Bendis' Young Justice?

[millernumber1]

Seven Crises? Isn't it the title of the first arc of Bendis' Young Justice?

Yup! And it showed up in one of the Action Comics front matter pages on a list of crises as well. My theory is that Bendis is part of this timeline thing, and he's showing the "generations" bleeding together.