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  1. #76
    of House Bolton Ramsay Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    It would be the first Complete Clone Saga Epic, I would think, as that gets the ball rolling on Ben as a character.
    I'm not necessarily looking for the beginning stages, as the start of a storyline isn't always the best. I'm looking to get the best part of his entire epic to see if I'll get hooked and want more.

  2. #77
    Spectacular Member Obsidian Spider's Avatar
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    I’m not sure old Ben stories can resonate with new audiences now. He was the first alternate Spidey. At the time, Spidey has only ever tried a few different costumes and having a doppelgänger was unique. These days Spidey has had tonnes of costumes and alt universe versions.

    Add to that the fact that many of us were teenagers or younger with less sophisticated senses of good stories and were very accepting of the Clone Saga and its ridiculousness. Adult readers going back to see what all the buzz was about may be left scratching their heads.

    Hopefully I’m wrong. Maybe others have a good jumping on point for Mr Reilly. Lost Years, perhaps? Or when he fights Venom?
    Last edited by Obsidian Spider; 03-01-2019 at 07:57 AM.

  3. #78
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian Spider View Post
    I’m not sure old Ben stories can resonate with new audiences now. He was the first alternate Spidey. At the time, Spidey has only ever tried a few different costumes and having a doppelgänger was unique. These days Spidey has had tonnes of costumes and alt universe versions.

    Add to that the fact that many of us were teenagers or younger with less sophisticated senses of good stories and were very accepting of the Clone Saga and its ridiculousness. Adult readers going back to see what all the buzz was about may be left scratching their heads.

    Hopefully I’m wrong. Maybe others have a good jumping on point for Mr Reilly. Lost Years, perhaps? Or when he fights Venom?
    The Lost Years and The Exile Returns, those are definitely good ones.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  4. #79
    Y'know. Pav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian Spider View Post
    I’m not sure old Ben stories can resonate with new audiences now. He was the first alternate Spidey. At the time, Spidey has only ever tried a few different costumes and having a doppelgänger was unique. These days Spidey has had tonnes of costumes and alt universe versions.

    Add to that the fact that many of us were teenagers or younger with less sophisticated senses of good stories and were very accepting of the Clone Saga and its ridiculousness. Adult readers going back to see what all the buzz was about may be left scratching their heads.

    Hopefully I’m wrong. Maybe others have a good jumping on point for Mr Reilly. Lost Years, perhaps? Or when he fights Venom?
    I don't necessarily disagree; but on the other hand, there are some deep themes present in some of the stories -- especially early in the Clone Saga -- themes about identity and purpose and even justice that I think will always resonate with readers who, like me, enjoy a little philosophy in their comic reading.

    -Pav, who really needs to replace his CS collection...
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  5. #80
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree; but on the other hand, there are some deep themes present in some of the stories -- especially early in the Clone Saga -- themes about identity and purpose and even justice that I think will always resonate with readers who, like me, enjoy a little philosophy in their comic reading.

    -Pav, who really needs to replace his CS collection...
    Exactly, which is why Ben Reilly first resonated with readers back in the 1990s.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  6. #81
    of House Bolton Ramsay Snow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obsidian Spider View Post
    I’m not sure old Ben stories can resonate with new audiences now. He was the first alternate Spidey. At the time, Spidey has only ever tried a few different costumes and having a doppelgänger was unique. These days Spidey has had tonnes of costumes and alt universe versions.

    Add to that the fact that many of us were teenagers or younger with less sophisticated senses of good stories and were very accepting of the Clone Saga and its ridiculousness. Adult readers going back to see what all the buzz was about may be left scratching their heads.

    Hopefully I’m wrong. Maybe others have a good jumping on point for Mr Reilly. Lost Years, perhaps? Or when he fights Venom?


    Duly noted. I'll go in not expecting the greatest literary works of comicdom, but something that'll help me appreciate a character I haven't been exposed to much.....And, hopefully, I'll end up enjoying it more than I expect to.


    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The Lost Years and The Exile Returns, those are definitely good ones.

    Cool, those are in the first volume of the Complete Clone Saga trade, so I guess I'll start from the beginning after all. Thanks!

  7. #82
    The Celestial Dragon Tien Long's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pav View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree; but on the other hand, there are some deep themes present in some of the stories -- especially early in the Clone Saga -- themes about identity and purpose and even justice that I think will always resonate with readers who, like me, enjoy a little philosophy in their comic reading.

    -Pav, who really needs to replace his CS collection...
    Yeah, those were great themes with Ben Reilly. Yes, it was philosophical, but in another way, Ben represented that clean slate. Now, back in the day, a lot of people didn't like Ben because of his replacement of Peter. Me, particularly, was staunchly about status quo, tradition, continuity, all of that. Like I said before, that's why I didn't like Ben. After more than 20 yrs., however, after seeing how comics have changed (and have had to change) and how heroes are still heroes and characters are still great, I really like Ben now. Again, he (and Kaine for that matter) represent creative potential. Ben has Pete's powers, abilities, and other characteristics but not his history. Thus, Ben could be in the stories that one could never imagine with Peter.
    "I am a man of peace."

    "A man of peace...who fights like ten tigers."

  8. #83
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsay Snow View Post
    Duly noted. I'll go in not expecting the greatest literary works of comicdom, but something that'll help me appreciate a character I haven't been exposed to much.....And, hopefully, I'll end up enjoying it more than I expect to.





    Cool, those are in the first volume of the Complete Clone Saga trade, so I guess I'll start from the beginning after all. Thanks!
    You're welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tien Long View Post
    Yeah, those were great themes with Ben Reilly. Yes, it was philosophical, but in another way, Ben represented that clean slate. Now, back in the day, a lot of people didn't like Ben because of his replacement of Peter. Me, particularly, was staunchly about status quo, tradition, continuity, all of that. Like I said before, that's why I didn't like Ben. After more than 20 yrs., however, after seeing how comics have changed (and have had to change) and how heroes are still heroes and characters are still great, I really like Ben now. Again, he (and Kaine for that matter) represent creative potential. Ben has Pete's powers, abilities, and other characteristics but not his history. Thus, Ben could be in the stories that one could never imagine with Peter.
    Technically, it's Kaine that doesn't have Peter's history, at least according to Chris Yost's series. Ben was created with Peter's memories up to the point he awakened for the first time and believed himself to be Peter at first until finding the real Peter with Mary Jane, at which point he took off to figure out what he was going to do with himself. That's the tragedy at the root of the character, but the great thing about him is that he turned something that nearly drove him to suicidal despair into something that gave him the impetus to move forward and build a new life, identity, and purpose for himself. That's actually pretty inspiring, come to think of it.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  9. #84
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    Ben Reilly was always a character that should feel like peter but have, fundamentally, a different perspective in how the world works. Unlike Kaine who, in my opinion is more of a realist, and Peter, who is an optimistic, Ben Reilly was supposed to be the kind of character who balances the two. He saw the situations he got himself involved in and planned ahead to deal with them the best he could. In a lot of ways he understood, clone or not, that whatever life he used to have is gone but still tries to make a new one.

    He has gone through hell and back without being able to rely on all the people Peter has. That is both depressing and inspiring given how selfless he was in giving up his life to save a man who could have potentially stolen everything from him(Peter before knowing he wasn’t the clone). That’s why the clone conspiracy, in my opinion, effectively damaged the legacy of such a great character. Turning him into a villain was the worst thing they could have done.

    Going forward I honestly wish Ben and Kaine form a real brother relationship without all the constant fighting between them, especially how they are honestly the only real family that each other has.( specially how I think Peter probably wants nothing to do with them after clone conspiracy)

  10. #85
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    Also I really want Ben and Kaine to go back to their old looks. Ben with blond hair and blue eyes. Kaine no longer scarred and buzz cut hair.

  11. #86
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sectal View Post
    Ben Reilly was always a character that should feel like peter but have, fundamentally, a different perspective in how the world works. Unlike Kaine who, in my opinion is more of a realist, and Peter, who is an optimistic, Ben Reilly was supposed to be the kind of character who balances the two. He saw the situations he got himself involved in and planned ahead to deal with them the best he could. In a lot of ways he understood, clone or not, that whatever life he used to have is gone but still tries to make a new one.

    He has gone through hell and back without being able to rely on all the people Peter has. That is both depressing and inspiring given how selfless he was in giving up his life to save a man who could have potentially stolen everything from him(Peter before knowing he wasn’t the clone). That’s why the clone conspiracy, in my opinion, effectively damaged the legacy of such a great character. Turning him into a villain was the worst thing they could have done.

    Going forward I honestly wish Ben and Kaine form a real brother relationship without all the constant fighting between them, especially how they are honestly the only real family that each other has.( specially how I think Peter probably wants nothing to do with them after clone conspiracy)
    Quote Originally Posted by Sectal View Post
    Also I really want Ben and Kaine to go back to their old looks. Ben with blond hair and blue eyes. Kaine no longer scarred and buzz cut hair.
    Agreed, though Ben's not gonna have blue eyes unless the colorist gets it wrong or he starts wearing contacts. I did like Kaine with the buzzcut, though.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #87
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sectal View Post
    ...He has gone through hell and back without being able to rely on all the people Peter has. That is both depressing and inspiring given how selfless he was in giving up his life to save a man who could have potentially stolen everything from him(Peter before knowing he wasn’t the clone). That’s why the clone conspiracy, in my opinion, effectively damaged the legacy of such a great character. Turning him into a villain was the worst thing they could have done....
    Bravo, bravo, bravo *claps hands loudly* this is one of the best descriptions of Classic Ben Reilly I have ever seen.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  13. #88
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sectal View Post
    Also I really want Ben and Kaine to go back to their old looks. Ben with blond hair and blue eyes. Kaine no longer scarred and buzz cut hair.
    i don’t recall ben changing his eye colour. and pedantically speaking, his earliest defining look was long brown locks and stubble


    i have a soft spot for monster-kaine too, but the character has long moved on. it’s just odd now that the two characters more or less occupy the same space
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  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sectal View Post
    He has gone through hell and back without being able to rely on all the people Peter has. That is both depressing and inspiring given how selfless he was in giving up his life to save a man who could have potentially stolen everything from him(Peter before knowing he wasn’t the clone). That’s why the clone conspiracy, in my opinion, effectively damaged the legacy of such a great character. Turning him into a villain was the worst thing they could have done.
    I still stand by the idea that turning him into a villain and spinning him off into his own book and redemption arc was commercially the best way forward having worked for similar characters like Bucky, Jason Todd and even Kaine.

    I suppose PAD's series was a redemption arc of sorts but not the kind that readers imagined and the whole thing was a backdrop for a lot PAD's own pet ideas. That of course leads into the big problem with Ben is that he little mythology unique to just him and what he has comes from a decades old comics that were released in a very haphazard manner. You can't hand Ben off to a writer that is interested in the concept but knows little about him, just think what they'd have to do for prep. Reading through the entirety of the 90s Clone Saga would be one hell of a daunting task to the uninitiated.

    Maybe someone like Tom Defalco could take a stab at it although I'm unsure what his status with Marvel is right now. Still the fact that Marvel ignored the ending to PAD's series and rebooted him to factory settings rather than killing him as many (including myself) thought would happen in Spider-Geddon it's at least a positive sign.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orbus View Post
    I still stand by the idea that turning him into a villain and spinning him off into his own book and redemption arc was commercially the best way forward having worked for similar characters like Bucky, Jason Todd and even Kaine.

    I suppose PAD's series was a redemption arc of sorts but not the kind that readers imagined and the whole thing was a backdrop for a lot PAD's own pet ideas. That of course leads into the big problem with Ben is that he little mythology unique to just him and what he has comes from a decades old comics that were released in a very haphazard manner. You can't hand Ben off to a writer that is interested in the concept but knows little about him, just think what they'd have to do for prep. Reading through the entirety of the 90s Clone Saga would be one hell of a daunting task to the uninitiated.

    Maybe someone like Tom Defalco could take a stab at it although I'm unsure what his status with Marvel is right now. Still the fact that Marvel ignored the ending to PAD's series and rebooted him to factory settings rather than killing him as many (including myself) thought would happen in Spider-Geddon it's at least a positive sign.
    The problem with giving a redemption arc to Ben is because the one they gave Kaine was so organic and long waited. There was no way Ben, who was a hero from day one, could have a redemption story better than Kaine, who was made a monster but wanted deep down to be a hero. The problem with Ben now is that spidergeddon has just made his story even more convoluted for future readers and that it doesn’t give him anywhere to go.

    Donny Cates has teased that the next time we are going to see Ben would be during his upcoming carnage vs marvel universe arc. Hopefully that shows us that Ben has a role in the marvel universe.

    In my opinion, the best way to move forward with Ben is to make partner him up with Kaine and giving him a teacher/ leader role in some capacity while Kaine gets himself a kid. That way you can have uncle Ben Reilly and Kaine can deal with trying to be a better person for the sake of his kid.

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