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  1. #1261
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    Spoken with eloquence, insightful precision, and most importantly TRUTH! Thanks for the timely response fam! BTW agreed 110%!
    You're very welcome, and thanks as well.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #1262
    Mighty Member Zelena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    The connection is that when you have the upper echelons of leadership in an industry, those who make most if not all the major decisions as to who or what gets pushed forward or phased into the background, consist (almost) exclusively of straight white men, you get at best blind spots and at worst outright biases around race, nationality, gender identity, sexual orientation, religious affiliation, etc. that block people who aren't straight white men from opportunities for advancement in the industry. Hell, there's a Business Insider article (that's been followed up by some more comic-focused news sites, including CBR) where it's admitted that Marvel really did consider stripping Miles Morales --- one of the most successful and popular of the nonwhite legacy characters introduced in the last decade --- of his claim to the Spider-Man mantle and essentially downgrading him.

    Now, that push to downgrade Miles obviously fell through, but the fact that it was even being seriously considered among the upper echelons of Marvel execs and/or editorial is a case study in why greater inclusivity and representation is needed at that level. And yes, when you have the upper echelons of talent and leadership in an industry consist (almost) exclusively of a class or group that is used to certain amenities and privileges as a norm, it is (or can be) very hard to get them to address issues of mistreatment or alienation that (seem to) primarily affect those who are not in that privileged class or group, especially when it comes to holding members of the same privileged class or group accountable for whatever role(s) they've played in said mistreatment and alienation.
    You speak like there’s a connivance between the “white authors” and those who hired them… because they have the same color of skin?

    Authors are just happy to be able to work and share the stories they imagine. They are not responsible there isn’t not much diversity at the “upper echelons of Marvel”… But what they are responsible for is making stories that the maximum of people can be interested in. They were more interesting stories about diversity in the 80s, not because they were more black authors then, but because authors had more eclectic interests and they were interested by the world they were living in and by all its problems…

  3. #1263
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    You speak like there’s a connivance between the “white authors” and those who hired them… because they have the same color of skin?
    Not a full blown conspiracy but in the same way Men can incidentally create and perpetrate a 'Good Ol' Boy's Club' at work Itd be naive to think that sorta preferential treatment wouldnt exist on a skin color level

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    They were more interesting stories about diversity in the 80s, not because they were more black authors then, but because authors had more eclectic interests and they were interested by the world they were living in and by all its problems…
    I think the 'Any Diversity=Forced Diversity' narrative is a main reason there may be less diverse stories being told
    GrindrStone(D)

  4. #1264
    Fantastic Member davetvs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    You speak like there’s a connivance between the “white authors” and those who hired them… because they have the same color of skin?
    Uh, yes? This is true for virtually every industry in the business sector.

  5. #1265
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelena View Post
    They were more interesting stories about diversity in the 80s, not because they were more black authors then, but because authors had more eclectic interests and they were interested by the world they were living in and by all its problems…
    Were they really more interesting stories about diversity in the 80s? That seems like rose color tint glasses to me. Anyways this something easy to understand the X-men franchise currently has more Queer Women writers and shockingly on in their books they are more queer characters being used. The comic industry has been dominantly white straight male and shocker guess which pov has been pushed and stagnated things. And no disrespect to Cyclops and Kitty despite how bland they can be at times it is never a surprised to see them being used because writers see themselves in characters. How often was there a writer who can I can see myself as Bishop or Sunspot

    Any way instead depending of writers to have "eclectic interests" how about more than handful of them have different backgrounds and perspective which will lead to different stories.

  6. #1266

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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Any way instead depending of writers to have "eclectic interests" how about more than handful of them have different backgrounds and perspective which will lead to different stories.
    I'm genuinely curious what people thought about Bryan Hill not using any black male characters in Fallen Angels. It was a Kwannon story so it was nice that the main focus was an Asian character, and we did have Bling!, but your avatar always reminds me of Gentle of course and I love his character.

    We now know that Synch and Prodigy were tied up and Bishop was in Marauders, so in this case was it about who was available and/or Hill just telling the story he wanted to tell? He told us that "philosophically, I have gravitated toward ideas present in Bushido, Shinkendo and even Ninjitsu" so that's what he wanted to play with. I guess my question is, should he have been expected to use a character he resembles physically?
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  7. #1267
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    No. Hill should’ve done exactly what he did and used the characters he wanted to use to tell the story he wanted to tell. Forcing a black writer to write black characters feels a bit wrong to me. But maybe that’s just me.

  8. #1268
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dkrook View Post
    I for one, don't even care if there is never a race issue plot that brings in Bishop. Just as long as we can get a good story layered with action and drama. Let's start with this. Part of me is cheering on all the revealing sexual assault allegations going on with comic veterans right now. I see this as a means to an end. The prevalence of white male presence in the upper positions of influence is directly to blame for the lack of well written black male heroes not just in X-Men but Marvel comics as well.
    Who do you think will take the place of those blacklisted veterans? A young black female writer or a young white male?

    I believe we all know in who we would bet to get the job.

    The problem is not just the talent, but the people who hires them. The writers we like and follow are not the ones with the power to actually change the industry, at least not any time soon, their work may have impact in 5 or 10 years, but to change things faster, the people on top would have to change.

  9. #1269
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    No. Hill should’ve done exactly what he did and used the characters he wanted to use to tell the story he wanted to tell. Forcing a black writer to write black characters feels a bit wrong to me. But maybe that’s just me.
    Yeah, one criticism you often see is writers trying to write a character they really don't "get" and thus the character comes off as a caricature. It's probably part of why some writers just don't want to use certain characters, they don't feel liek they could write them well.

  10. #1270

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    No. Hill should’ve done exactly what he did and used the characters he wanted to use to tell the story he wanted to tell. Forcing a black writer to write black characters feels a bit wrong to me. But maybe that’s just me.
    Thanks and I happen to agree. I think we have to look beyond the assumption that bringing in more writers of color automatically means more representation of characters of color. Hill was part of the first wave of what is arguably the greatest relaunch of the X-books. Unfortunately his title wasn't received as well as the others (it wasn't my cup of tea, personally) but I loved the character work he did between Kwannon and Sinister, and Kwannon and Magneto. Could he have used Gentle or Triage, or tapped into the villain pool with Hairbag or Emplate perhaps? Absolutely but they weren't part of the story he wanted to tell.

    I completely agree that we need more diversity in terms of writers. I would love it if Marvel brought on a gay man from Puerto Rico, someone I could relate to. But if said writer decided he wanted to write a story about Emma and Warren, and wrote it well, he would have my full support.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  11. #1271
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    No. Hill should’ve done exactly what he did and used the characters he wanted to use to tell the story he wanted to tell. Forcing a black writer to write black characters feels a bit wrong to me. But maybe that’s just me.
    Absolutely.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  12. #1272
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    No Hill can tell what story he wants and use what story he wants. I get that but also I would liked his ass to be a little more mindful though and even if he dont use a Black male character as a major part of his cast to at least use them in the background. Now thats just me. I feel like on one hand yes its super unfair for Black or Brown or Asian writers to have to write characters from their background but by this time in his life he already know that life is not fair for Black or other people of color. There are ways I think he could have did a better job but hell its over now and it is what it is.

  13. #1273
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    But why is that the black writer’s responsibility? To me that type of thinking is a little bit dated. It should be everyone’s responsibility to consider diversity and inclusion in the stories they tell with regards to the characters used. That was my point. Automatically putting that on black writers saying “your ass should be mindful of the world around you and you should want to use black characters” just kind of reinforces the stereotype that black writers should be hired to write black characters, and effectively pigeon holes them. At least IMO.

  14. #1274

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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleo_Rage View Post
    No Hill can tell what story he wants and use what story he wants. I get that but also I would liked his ass to be a little more mindful though and even if he dont use a Black male character as a major part of his cast to at least use them in the background. Now thats just me. I feel like on one hand yes its super unfair for Black or Brown or Asian writers to have to write characters from their background but by this time in his life he already know that life is not fair for Black or other people of color. There are ways I think he could have did a better job but hell its over now and it is what it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    But why is that the black writer’s responsibility? To me that type of thinking is a little bit dated. It should be everyone’s responsibility to consider diversity and inclusion in the stories they tell with regards to the characters used. That was my point. Automatically putting that on black writers saying “your ass should be mindful of the world around you and you should want to use black characters” just kind of reinforces the stereotype that black writers should be hired to write black characters, and effectively pigeon holes them. At least IMO.
    You both make great points and I think it's something to be looked at. I want more diversity in the writers but I want them to be able to write what they want because we all know editorial mandates are usually destructive. So maybe the issue is deeper than simply changing the people in the X-Office and more about how writers can understand these characters and bring them into fuller life. I have high hopes for our boy Prodigy at the moment.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  15. #1275
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    I'm genuinely curious what people thought about Bryan Hill not using any black male characters in Fallen Angels. It was a Kwannon story so it was nice that the main focus was an Asian character
    Dang I had no idea the writer was black lolAnd after reading the story I'm glad he didn't...real tay
    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    I guess my question is, should he have been expected to use a character he resembles physically?
    lol I wouldn't call having the same skin color a 'resemblance' but if that was the case most of thecomic characters would look pasty and kinda doughy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    No. Hill should’ve done exactly what he did and used the characters he wanted to use to tell the story he wanted to tell. Forcing a black writer to write black characters feels a bit wrong to me. But maybe that’s just me.
    of course writers should write the stories they want But if not you then who?
    a black writer writing an XBook with an all black cast would be seen some type of way while books cast like X-Force, or 90sExcalibur are norm. It's like that South Park episode where Token (lil blk kid) and the new lil blk girl are actively dismissing each other because they're black!

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, one criticism you often see is writers trying to write a character they really don't "get" and thus the character comes off as a caricature. It's probably part of why some writers just don't want to use certain characters, they don't feel liek they could write them well.
    Thats why you'd hire writers that aren't stuck in their own spatial community. I mean damn I see this argument a lot...'writer resorting to caricaturical antics due to cultural differences' Buuut I'm like you're a writer you're supposed to be able to create a story...im positive if tasked to write a story centered around an East Asian kid with resorting to chopsticks and a Judo competition
    GrindrStone(D)

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