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  1. #1276

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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Thats why you'd hire writers that aren't stuck in their own spatial community.
    This!!!! This resonates deeply. How would Marvel determine this? What line of questioning in the interview process? It's tricky because there are gifted writers that are still stuck in their own spatial community.

    Edit: I love Hill's energy

    Last edited by Jbenito; 08-02-2020 at 12:11 PM.
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  2. #1277
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    There are PoC writers writing Black and diverse characters and good stories...it's just that we are not reading them or, more truthfully, we are not inclined to read them because they're ostensibly not The X-Men.

    The same way we absolutely insist writers include diverse characters in their stories, background or forefront, we should also insist to ourselves to read those books, other than X-Men, that actually have the diverse characters we want to see.
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  3. #1278
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    This!!!! This resonates deeply. How would Marvel determine this? What line of questioning in the interview process? It's tricky because there are gifted writers that are still stuck in their own spatial community.

    Edit: I love Hill's energy
    Like a certain Black Panther writer, perhaps.
    Or, Sina Grace's Iceman.

    And apropos of my previous post, if I'm being quite honest and a tad hypocritical...I refuse to read Coates' BP because it is such rubbish and poorly written
    Whether a book has a diverse cast or not...whether the writer is a PoC, LGBT or not...it is imperative that the writing be subjectively good (to the reader) first and foremost.
    Last edited by Devaishwarya; 08-02-2020 at 12:42 PM.
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  4. #1279

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    There are PoC writers writing Black and diverse characters and good stories...it's just that we are not reading them or, more truthfully, we are not inclined to read them because they're ostensibly not The X-Men.

    The same way we absolutely insist writers include diverse characters in their stories, background or forefront, we should also insist to ourselves to read those books, other than X-Men, that actually have the diverse characters we want to see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    Like a certain Black Panther writer, perhaps.
    You always get where I'm coming from.
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  5. #1280
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    You both make great points and I think it's something to be looked at. I want more diversity in the writers but I want them to be able to write what they want because we all know editorial mandates are usually destructive. So maybe the issue is deeper than simply changing the people in the X-Office and more about how writers can understand these characters and bring them into fuller life. I have high hopes for our boy Prodigy at the moment.
    Agreed. 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    There are PoC writers writing Black and diverse characters and good stories...it's just that we are not reading them or, more truthfully, we are not inclined to read them because they're ostensibly not The X-Men.

    The same way we absolutely insist writers include diverse characters in their stories, background or forefront, we should also insist to ourselves to read those books, other than X-Men, that actually have the diverse characters we want to see.
    I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, if you are clamoring for more diversity in the X-books, then by all means support other titles written by POC authors about POC characters. But that shouldn’t be a prerequisite. In other words, if the X-men are your favorites, you shouldn’t have to “put your money where your mouth is” and “prove that POC characters can sell” by supporting other titles in order for the X-books to incorporate more diversity and inclusion. Since the whole mutant metaphor is an allegory for persecuted peoples, they should be doing that regardless IMO.

    I’m not saying that’s what you were trying to say, Devaishwarya. Just saying that it could come across that way to some.

  6. #1281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    There are PoC writers writing Black and diverse characters and good stories...it's just that we are not reading them or, more truthfully, we are not inclined to read them because they're ostensibly not The X-Men.

    The same way we absolutely insist writers include diverse characters in their stories, background or forefront, we should also insist to ourselves to read those books, other than X-Men, that actually have the diverse characters we want to see.
    This. Now more than arguably any time in history, you have black creators breaking new ground in the world of literature. Novels, anime, comics, etc. are seeing an explosion in black voices but all too often it's the very black consumers they hope to gain that ignore or reject their efforts. While it's fair to expect black male representation from the Big 2, black folks got to cultivate a mentality that promotes supporting such representation outside the conventional producers (provided it's of quality, of course).

    That's not to say people shouldn't advocate for Bishop to play a bigger role in the X-Men or for Black Panther not to have his kingdom blown up every other year. But people need to forget this idea that great depictions of black men are limited to Marvel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    But why is that the black writer’s responsibility? To me that type of thinking is a little bit dated. It should be everyone’s responsibility to consider diversity and inclusion in the stories they tell with regards to the characters used. That was my point. Automatically putting that on black writers saying “your ass should be mindful of the world around you and you should want to use black characters” just kind of reinforces the stereotype that black writers should be hired to write black characters, and effectively pigeon holes them. At least IMO.
    It is definitely a burden that he and I both share as Black people. For instance, in my chosen profession, I am one of thew few Black men.What you call outdated I call realistic and pragmatic. Yes it is fucked up that I have to do certain things but if I do not do them things wont be better for the Black children that come after me.And yes it should be everyone responsibility but I cannot relay on white people or Non black pocs to what needs to to be done for Black people especially when many are not able to grapple with racism in all of its forms and permutations or do a critical self reflection on their racist and/or anti black racist practices. Like we know from reading these comic books that the comic book industry is very tone deaf to Black culture, and how to write, create, and tell rich and generative stories about Black people.

  8. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    No. Hill should’ve done exactly what he did and used the characters he wanted to use to tell the story he wanted to tell. Forcing a black writer to write black characters feels a bit wrong to me. But maybe that’s just me.
    That happens to most writers.

    Gail Simone and Ethan did NOT want to do New 52 Firestorm-they some how made it work (at least for Jason).
    Priest didn't want Black Panther-you couldn't tell by the way the book was done.
    Coates does not care for Black Panther and it SHOWS.
    McDuffie on his website made it clear he would NOT have put 4 black folks on his Justice League run. EDITORS did that. One he said had no business on the team. You could not tell who he didn't want on that team. He had that book planned out to issue 50. Trolls made sure he made it to issue 37.

    A lot of that is due to EDITORS.

    Priest didn't want to kill off Ironfist in the last issue of Powerman & Ironfist. Jim Shooter told him do it or be FIRED. He also most left comics over that because he got a Conan run.
    Static and Cyborg lost their writers over editors.
    Dc wanted to kill off John Stewart-that writer QUIT.
    Heroes in Crisis looked way different than the pitch King gave.
    Think about Eve Ewing-how much of a battle do you think she had using the Midnight Fire in her book?
    Leah and Vita have FOUGHT to use certain folks. You KNOW she had to fight for Prodigy in X-Factor.

    But why is that the black writer’s responsibility?
    Generally a black writer has ZERO issue doing it willingly. If their story calls for it. Look at Milestone despite claims it was all black-it was diverse books from the start. Go behind the scenes and your staff was diverse.
    Static from Static Shock? How many black writers did he have in his FIRST book? 1. He would not see another black writer until his mini series in 2000.
    In all of his stories 5 out of 13 writers were black. From his first book he had 1 gay Latino writer. 1 transgender writer (YES he was probably the first to have one). 4 female writers.
    How many black artist? 2. Khary Randolph (covers of New 52 Static) and Deny Cowans.

  9. #1284
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    Shifting gears a bit, I’d still like to see Percy write Bishop. Have loved his take on everyone else he’s writing, and think Lucas would an easy sub out for Piotr.

  10. #1285
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Agreed. 100%.



    I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, if you are clamoring for more diversity in the X-books, then by all means support other titles written by POC authors about POC characters. But that shouldn’t be a prerequisite. In other words, if the X-men are your favorites, you shouldn’t have to “put your money where your mouth is” and “prove that POC characters can sell” by supporting other titles in order for the X-books to incorporate more diversity and inclusion. Since the whole mutant metaphor is an allegory for persecuted peoples, they should be doing that regardless IMO.

    I’m not saying that’s what you were trying to say, Devaishwarya. Just saying that it could come across that way to some.
    I see where it might be misconstrued as such.
    I'm not saying to wholeheartedly support PoC writers and books with diversity (I would never support something that I personally think is rubbish or just does not interest me, regardless. Nor would I expect anyone else to do the same)...I am saying be open to exploring other books/literature for the diverse representation being sought, as a personal choice/decision.

    How many X-fans clamouring for diversity in the X-books are actually reading Marauders (arguably the most Diverse X-book in DoX)?
    How many X-fans read books outside of the X-franchise?
    How many X-fans read books from publishers other than the Big2?
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  11. #1286
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    I can see both sides of this. On the one hand, if you are clamoring for more diversity in the X-books, then by all means support other titles written by POC authors about POC characters. But that shouldn’t be a prerequisite. In other words, if the X-men are your favorites, you shouldn’t have to “put your money where your mouth is” and “prove that POC characters can sell” by supporting other titles in order for the X-books to incorporate more diversity and inclusion. Since the whole mutant metaphor is an allegory for persecuted peoples, they should be doing that regardless IMO.
    Storm ONLY got her book because Ms Marvel was a hit.

    The issue is people are putting their money where their mouths are. They always have.
    The issue we have seen is companies being OKAY with that.

    Look at DC Comics. When Milestone was active. How many black lead books got green-lighted from 1993-97 when Milestone was active.

    Steel was already around. Green Lantern Mosaic was ending.
    We saw ONE book-Black Lightning.
    I think we saw 4-5 new black heroes at that time too.
    Cyborg nor Vixen nor John Stewart did anything during that time.

    Meanwhile at Marvel-Spectrum as Cap Marvel, Prowler, Luke Cage, Falcon, Night Thrasher, War Machine, Nightwatch, Blade, Storm and Bishop saw minis or ongoings or one shots.
    Rocket Racer saw backups in books. Deathlok was ending his run. Panther was co-leading Fantastic Force. Synch was in Generation X.
    Marvel was being active despite money issues.

    And Dc WONDERS why they have issues with black characters. For all of Marvel's MANY flaws blacks got shots.

    That's not to say people shouldn't advocate for Bishop to play a bigger role in the X-Men or for Black Panther not to have his kingdom blown up every other year. But people need to forget this idea that great depictions of black men are limited to Marvel.
    To me it's not so much that. My stance is "what YOU don't do SOMEONE else will." You put out badly done black males at Marvel and DC. The WORST thing that can happen is someone else steps up and BEATS you (not focusing on sales but everything else). Then you want to rush and play catch with something crappy see Black Lightning Cold Dead Hands series.

    While black males at Marvel & Dc (not named Miles Morales) were being marginalized....

    Shadowman, Resonant, Freeze, Prodigy, The Mall, Killadelphia, Rivers of London, Excellence, Assassin's Creed: Templars, Shades of Magic - The Steel Prince, Black, Bitter Root, Creature Features, Relay, Bass Reeves (a COMICS GATE SUPPORTER BOOK), Aliens Fire & Stone, Stealth, Outer Darkness, On The Stump, Savage Dragon, Spawn, Reyrn, Farmhands, Noble, Quincrible and even CELLIES weren't playing with folks.

    Prodigy (going to be a Netflix show) is the Mr Terrific/Marvel's Prodigy book you didn't know you needed. Excellence is the Brother Voodoo book you wished McDuffie wrote.
    The Indy universe has stepped up.
    Bass Reeves is sold at Wal-Mart and guess what it SELLS.

  12. #1287

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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    This. Now more than arguably any time in history, you have black creators breaking new ground in the world of literature. Novels, anime, comics, etc. are seeing an explosion in black voices but all too often it's the very black consumers they hope to gain that ignore or reject their efforts. While it's fair to expect black male representation from the Big 2, black folks got to cultivate a mentality that promotes supporting such representation outside the conventional producers (provided it's of quality, of course).
    Well said and that's exactly my point. I keep going back to Hill because he was a part of one of the biggest marketing/publicity initiatives in comics - everyone was talking about Dawn of X - and still most people don't know he's a black man. Is that Marvel's fault? Is that his fault? Is that the readers' fault? I think these things need to be explored because to me, the argument that more creators of color equates more representation is too simple. It's deeper than that. We all have to take part in this if we're passionate about this issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    That happens to most writers.

    Gail Simone and Ethan did NOT want to do New 52 Firestorm-they some how made it work (at least for Jason).
    Priest didn't want Black Panther-you couldn't tell by the way the book was done.
    Coates does not care for Black Panther and it SHOWS.
    McDuffie on his website made it clear he would NOT have put 4 black folks on his Justice League run. EDITORS did that. One he said had no business on the team. You could not tell who he didn't want on that team. He had that book planned out to issue 50. Trolls made sure he made it to issue 37.

    A lot of that is due to EDITORS.

    Priest didn't want to kill off Ironfist in the last issue of Powerman & Ironfist. Jim Shooter told him do it or be FIRED. He also most left comics over that because he got a Conan run.
    Static and Cyborg lost their writers over editors.
    Dc wanted to kill off John Stewart-that writer QUIT.
    Heroes in Crisis looked way different than the pitch King gave.
    Think about Eve Ewing-how much of a battle do you think she had using the Midnight Fire in her book?
    Leah and Vita have FOUGHT to use certain folks. You KNOW she had to fight for Prodigy in X-Factor.



    Generally a black writer has ZERO issue doing it willingly. If their story calls for it. Look at Milestone despite claims it was all black-it was diverse books from the start. Go behind the scenes and your staff was diverse.
    Static from Static Shock? How many black writers did he have in his FIRST book? 1. He would not see another black writer until his mini series in 2000.
    In all of his stories 5 out of 13 writers were black. From his first book he had 1 gay Latino writer. 1 transgender writer (YES he was probably the first to have one). 4 female writers.
    How many black artist? 2. Khary Randolph (covers of New 52 Static) and Deny Cowans.
    Thank you for all of this info.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  13. #1288
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    Which shows that the responsibility for greater diversity lies not only and solely with the writers...but mostly and definitely with the editors and higher-ups.
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  14. #1289
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Static from Static Shock? How many black writers did he have in his FIRST book? 1. He would not see another black writer until his mini series in 2000.
    In all of his stories 5 out of 13 writers were black. From his first book he had 1 gay Latino writer. 1 transgender writer (YES he was probably the first to have one). 4 female writers. .
    Sorry, I'm confused here. Who were the other four black writers of Static and when did they write him if he only had one black writer on his first book?

  15. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Thats why you'd hire writers that aren't stuck in their own spatial community. I mean damn I see this argument a lot...'writer resorting to caricaturical antics due to cultural differences' Buuut I'm like you're a writer you're supposed to be able to create a story...im positive if tasked to write a story centered around an East Asian kid with resorting to chopsticks and a Judo competition
    A story? About who? That's where it gets interesting. Everyone Marvel's hired as a writer has had the ability to write a decent story... the question is about who? For example: writer A might be able to make a story about Thor and Amora having dinner in a tavern a riveting tale. throw on a good artist and get sales. Having that same writer try to write the mis-adventures of Rage and Power Man in Harlem? Might not work as well.

    This kinda goes back to the group think though. New writers get hired because someone already on staff likes their work. A writer who likes writing Thor might find it easier to appreciate similar work. The "I don't get it" thing applies both to writing work and appreciating it.

    Of course discussions like this make me wonder why people don't like Jim Lee and Dwayne McDuffie's works more. I personally thought McDuffie was one of the greats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Sorry, I'm confused here. Who were the other four black writers of Static and when did they write him if he only had one black writer on his first book?
    Creator: Dwayne McDuffie
    Writers: Dwayne McDuffie, Richard Washington III, Kurt Busiek, Shalom Fisch, Ivan Velez Jr, Maddie Blaustein, Yves Fezzani, Matt Wayne, Mark Bright
    Editor: Dwayne McDuffie
    Executive Editor/s: Richard Giordano, Dwayne McDuffie

    That's all I was able to find on the wiki.

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