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  1. #1321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    So no stories that put minorities or women into terrible positions of pain, humiliation, indignity or servitude... that’s a bit limiting in terms of story potential, no? I say that as a huge Wolverine fan. Take away those things and you’d pretty much take away all the things that make him popular. Namely his overcoming those situations. I get where you’re coming from, but you might want to think through how you’d be limiting the character arcs of these characters and actually holding them back in the doing of it. Assuming you were to institute some editorial mandate prohibiting the putting of minorities and women through the proverbial ringer in terms of origin stories and/or situations.
    I think that's untrue. Wolverine is white canadian so he can do that story but women and minorities have been oppressed for so long even in modern shows they are secondary that i feel there are so many stories out there with them untold holding positions of power we can take a break from women on there knees groveling and black people being oppressed. I usually am so over those stories anyway, they are not that interesting. I would rather see a strong man have to out maneuver a strong female any day than the tropes of weak women or enslaved minorities. I think that is why to this day War of the Roses is one of my fave movies.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  2. #1322
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Yes, but heroes typically have to be put through rough spots by the bad guys so that their eventual triumph is actually a payoff. That may involve them being outsmarted, at first, and put into captivity, servitude or just beaten up.

  3. #1323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    So no stories that put minorities or women into terrible positions of pain, humiliation, indignity or servitude... that’s a bit limiting in terms of story potential, no? I say that as a huge Wolverine fan. Take away those things and you’d pretty much take away all the things that make him popular. Namely his overcoming those situations. I get where you’re coming from, but you might want to think through how you’d be limiting the character arcs of these characters and actually holding them back in the doing of it. Assuming you were to institute some editorial mandate prohibiting the putting of minorities and women through the proverbial ringer in terms of origin stories and/or situations.
    It's not that bad things can't happen to characters of color or women. It's an issue when a disproportionate amount of the stories being told are about their struggle, racial or otherwise. What made Black Panther standout in the landscape of the superhero medium was the power fantasy he brought to the table as a desirable African king with wealth, family, and respect. It opened up story possibilities that weren't exclusively framed in terms of his inadequacy, despite the fact his film put him through the ringer emotionally and physically. The issue with most black males at the X-Office is that they don't offer that.

    Others have gone down the list of all the basic conceptual issues with characters like Gentle, but it always boils down to not being the type of character a regular reader or consumer would want to be. Too many dudes that look like freaks, have zero confidence, or who can't rise to the occasion and actually do something cool. The tragic black man is a trope onto itself where a black male is constantly haunted by his failures and his own lack of confidence.

    The big difference between a nontraditional character like that and Wolverine is that Wolverine is written in such a way where he nearly ALWAYS triumphs. He's the embodiment of a dude that powers through everything thrown his way and tends to win in compelling and often overwhelming ways. He struggles with trauma and the ghosts of his past, but he's not defined by his failures and more than compensates with his wins in that story. That's different than say Black Panther, who 5 years after the fact is still dealing with his failures before Secret Wars and hasn't gotten any real wins under his belt since then.

  4. #1324
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroHomo View Post
    Guess it just depends on what story you wanna tell, and what is available, I get your point but maybe look to see if a writer has told/is good at thought out stories featuring people who dont like like the writer...when doling out books that feature a diverse cast

    Ha! thanks man!
    And you Right!

    Uh when was Bishop a slave?


    I don't pretend to understand girls, much less YGOC but after seeing what the ads/media they are bombarded with, I'd consider it lucky if they are into Disney's Princess and he Frog movie :/
    Ummm which ones of the 'many' are freakish looking? Or Passive?
    They X-men don't have enough black dudes for ANYthing relating to them be a tendency lol
    Gentle looks like a misshapen Hulk whenever he uses his powers. His whole personality is passivity and emotional vulnerability because of mommy issues
    Maggot has lame powers and mismatching features
    Darwin doesn't look black half the time and he looks like a freak either way
    Triage is a healer and written with the personality of drying paint (because he's just a regular guy)
    Synch makes rainbows whenever he uses his powers

    Part of the issue is that most black X-males are coming up in an era where comics don't last all that long and characters can be dropped and forgotten as quickly as they're created. So while at face value square, swagless personalities and out there powers are bad, what's worse is how they're not being given consistent development that could grow into something more. There are plenty of black X-males, most of them just suck at a conceptual level and suck more because of lack of use.

  5. #1325
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Logan is being written well for the first time in a long time. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was “winning” for a lot of the past 15 years or so. Hell, he was dead for a lot of it. But I kind of see your point.

    I’m just saying that there’s breaking stereotypes and then there’s limiting stories that can be told with POC characters. For example, when Gambit came on the scene he was one of the most popular X-characters and still to this day remains very popular. Had he been a minority I think it would’ve been great (and could be great if they made him one in the MCU), but I can only imagine the outcry by today’s standards if a badass minority character with cool powers happened to be a thief. No writer would want to touch that.
    Last edited by Jackraow21; 08-03-2020 at 11:51 AM.

  6. #1326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Yes, but heroes typically have to be put through rough spots by the bad guys so that their eventual triumph is actually a payoff. That may involve them being outsmarted, at first, and put into captivity, servitude or just beaten up.
    Many of our characters don't get that.

    DC just put out a Summer Special with Cyborg in it. DESPITE David Walker and Sempter already DEALING with Cyborg and his Daddy issues-guess who bought them right back up? His Dad has said he loved him and all that MANY times but the woes is me-my Daddy don't love me or man vs machine crap comes right back up.

    Duke Thomas-we have a JOKER crossover-he's doing nothing in it. Joker GASSED his parents. Excluding Jason, Gordon & Babs & even Bat God-who would have a bigger bone to pick with Joker than him? Yet he's an after thought.

    Jason Rusch-had his powers taken from him in a story written by RONNIE"S creator. Doomsday Clock pretty much wrote him off as never being Firestorm.

    you might want to think through how you’d be limiting the character arcs of these characters and actually holding them back in the doing of it. some editorial mandate prohibiting the putting of minorities and women through the proverbial ringer in terms of origin stories and/or situations.
    The issue is most of our black ones keep getting held up to certain origins or stories.

    A guy who is now banned on here kept bringing it up about what stories blacks get subjected to versus their counterparts of all races.

    Gang related stories. The first arc and most of Steel's run before Priest was him fighting gang members, having a nephew in a gang and thugs using his inventions to kill folks. Oh that book left a HUGE plot hole with a foster kid from his family being taken in by a villain to eventual kill Steel.

    Black Lightning volume 2 (not the 1995 series) did NOTHING but paint his students as hood kids that HAD to be thugs. I had to stop reading and took that book back to the library. I worked with hood kids who went on the the NBA, NFL, Ivy League schools, military and many are business owners. NONE were thugs or gang members.

    Wallace West-folks HATED how he was introduced. Arrest by Barry and help white savior trope.
    Rage's intro? Calling Falcon & Panther tokens in Avengers.
    Rayshuan Lucas's intro vandalizing.
    Jakeem Thunder-cussing folks out left and right when we finally meet him.

    Why have folks JUMPED on Static, SYnch, Shuri, Moon Girl and Miles? For once you saw a collection of black kids who did NONE of that.

    How many angry black males are we going to KEEP seeing at Marvel & DC? That need white folks to save them?

  7. #1327
    Mighty Member Steroid's Avatar
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    My dude Synch just needs to get out of The Vault and finally realize all that potential. IMO he's the only that has a chance of not only catching on like Bishop, but even surpassing Bishop.

  8. #1328
    Grizzled Veteran Jackraow21's Avatar
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    Not really IMO because Rogue has his power set, but with the added pathos that comes from not being able to touch people for fear of hurting them. Bishop has more unique powers and has barely scratched the surface in terms of interesting ways to use them. Again, just my $.02, but his solo book back in the 90s was fun and showed his potential as a character. I think if Marvel were to push him, he could definitely be one of the more popular Black male characters again, and not just in the X-books. Up there with Black Panther, Luke Cage and Blade.

  9. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Logan is being written well for the first time in a long time. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was “winning” for a lot of the past 15 years or so. Hell, he was dead for a lot of it. But I kind of see your point.

    I’m just saying that there’s breaking stereotypes and then there’s limiting stories that can be told with POC characters. For example, when Gambit came on the scene he was one of the most popular X-characters and still to this day remains very popular. Had he been a minority I think it would’ve been great (and could be great if they made him one in the MCU), but I can only imagine the outcry by today’s standards if a badass minority character with cool powers happened to be a thief. No writer would want to touch that.
    At least he HAD 15 years worth of stories. Even when he was DEAD.

    Synch was dead for 20.
    Night Thrasher was for 12.
    John Stewart had a span of 14 years before he saw another story.
    Hotspot went 20+ years before he got included in a story and then killed.

    Logan has that resume and collection of books that folks can over look bad writing.

    He has 7 volumes of solo books under his name. I am not even going to count minis and all those other books with his name.
    Only ONE black guy has that many BLACK PANTHER. IN all of comics ONE guy.

    The 100+ club
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    A franchise is missing...... On yeah Inhumans-oh wait Moon Girl has more than any black female at the big two. So that is a wash.
    Oh X-Men in both black males and females.

  10. #1330
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Yes, but heroes typically have to be put through rough spots by the bad guys so that their eventual triumph is actually a payoff. That may involve them being outsmarted, at first, and put into captivity, servitude or just beaten up.
    Understanding what you are saying, however there is a tendency in media, written and film that seems to always put black people in slave-like situations and it gets redundant, bordering on outright unimaginative. You know how many different slave movies that have come and gone with black people? There are so many of narratives that can be told dealing with black people throughout history. Just saying.

  11. #1331
    Mighty Member Ra-El's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chief12d View Post
    Gentle looks like a misshapen Hulk whenever he uses his powers. His whole personality is passivity and emotional vulnerability because of mommy issues
    Maggot has lame powers and mismatching features
    Darwin doesn't look black half the time and he looks like a freak either way
    Triage is a healer and written with the personality of drying paint (because he's just a regular guy)
    Synch makes rainbows whenever he uses his powers

    Part of the issue is that most black X-males are coming up in an era where comics don't last all that long and characters can be dropped and forgotten as quickly as they're created. So while at face value square, swagless personalities and out there powers are bad, what's worse is how they're not being given consistent development that could grow into something more. There are plenty of black X-males, most of them just suck at a conceptual level and suck more because of lack of use.
    Sunspot is probably the most promising one. He have a cool personality, cool powers and don't have a lot of angst.

    The greatest proof of his potential is that Marvel really want us to forget that he is supposed to be black.

  12. #1332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackraow21 View Post
    Logan is being written well for the first time in a long time. I wouldn’t go so far as to say he was “winning” for a lot of the past 15 years or so. Hell, he was dead for a lot of it. But I kind of see your point.

    I’m just saying that there’s breaking stereotypes and then there’s limiting stories that can be told with POC characters. For example, when Gambit came on the scene he was one of the most popular X-characters and still to this day remains very popular. Had he been a minority I think it would’ve been great (and could be great if they made him one in the MCU), but I can only imagine the outcry by today’s standards if a badass minority character with cool powers happened to be a thief. No writer would want to touch that.
    But not only was Wolverine in use, but he had his golden years to draw off and prevent more recent portrayals from sullying his rep. As well as the occasional gem to remind readers who he was at his core, which is much better than most black X-males and black men in comics period.

    I get what you're saying about limiting stories, and I'd argue that a lot of the problems we're seeing is the result of over correction for past depictions of black men. Creators don't want to be accused of showing an "angry black man", "happy go lucky black best friend", or "black male criminal" so you end up with these run of the mill black dudes with little in the way of personality or genuine escapism. They're the definition of safe.

    As far as a race changed Gambit is concerned, I'm actually of the opposite state of mind. Black Gambit would probably elicit a lot of excitement from people who know how cool he can be or who just see a badass black character. My question is instead of race changing Gambit, why not elevate Bishop?

    This goes back to the supporting diversity idea I had a few posts back. I don't think it's good or as fulfilling for me as a black person to only ever see great black characters if they're race changed. Bishop has managed to be in the game for as long as he has because he's genuinely great, so rather than have race-swapped Gambit get a Disney+ show, give originally black Bishop a project. Though him being a police officer could open up a whole host of issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ra-El View Post
    Sunspot is probably the most promising one. He have a cool personality, cool powers and don't have a lot of angst.

    The greatest proof of his potential is that Marvel really want us to forget that he is supposed to be black.
    Sunspot is the most promising option for prominent black X-males (even though he's only half black but that's another discussion). But if we're being entirely frank the only writers putting in the work to put him on is Ewing (who's not writing X-books) and Hickman. What Hickman's been doing with Sunspot, making him the narrative lead of New Mutants and setting him up for cosmic stories is great. It feels like he's laying the foundation for him to be an essential X-character, which could cement him as an A-list mutant by the end of his run.

    The big question is 1. will this push continue after Hickman leaves, and 2. will he continue to look black? The X-office was quick to let Sunspot lay on the sidelines after his return from the Avengers, which doesn't inspire much confidence that outside Hickman, there's anyone there really willing to advocate for him. And with the constantly fluctuating talent of X-artists we'll never get a Sunspot that looks consistently black, especially when you have SOME creators and fans that don't care or would prefer him to be whiter-looking.

  13. #1333

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steroid View Post
    My dude Synch just needs to get out of The Vault and finally realize all that potential. IMO he's the only that has a chance of not only catching on like Bishop, but even surpassing Bishop.
    I agree. I love him and I love his mostly sunny disposition. That's what always drew me to him.
    Boop! Krakoa forever!

  14. #1334
    Sarveśām Svastir Bhavatu Devaishwarya's Avatar
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    "Synch makes rainbows whenever he uses his powers" Said as if that's a bad thing or that his powers are any less/weaker for it...tch!
    We are MUTANT...One people. One tribe. One family...Krakoa, FOREVER!!!

  15. #1335
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    At least he HAD 15 years worth of stories. Even when he was DEAD.

    Synch was dead for 20.
    Night Thrasher was for 12.
    John Stewart had a span of 14 years before he saw another story.
    Hotspot went 20+ years before he got included in a story and then killed.

    Logan has that resume and collection of books that folks can over look bad writing.

    He has 7 volumes of solo books under his name. I am not even going to count minis and all those other books with his name.
    Only ONE black guy has that many BLACK PANTHER. IN all of comics ONE guy.

    The 100+ club
    Spawn
    Panther
    Cage
    70+
    Miles
    50+ club
    Malcolm Dragon
    Static
    Steel
    Hardware
    40+
    Falcon
    Black Lightning
    Blade
    War Machine

    A franchise is missing...... On yeah Inhumans-oh wait Moon Girl has more than any black female at the big two. So that is a wash.
    Oh X-Men in both black males and females.
    Batman franchise tried with Orpheus but failed.

    They tried recently with the Batwing book.

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