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  1. #1366
    Extraordinary Member BroHomo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    I mean, what if it ends up being Darwin instead
    It'll be less cool
    GrindrStone(D)

  2. #1367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    He did. He gave you four examples, in fact.
    Now some of those black writers have not done it to the levels of Wally West but they did it.

    Here is a 5th example-MOESHA. Her father owned a car dealership, married and was successful. Then came RAY J and the cheated on MOMMY episode. Just had to make him another stereotypical no good black man for the BET crowd. Oh you don't think it was destroying a black man? Sara Finny and Sheryl Lee Ralph got tossed because they didn't like it.
    At the end of the season and all the ratings came out-Moesha suffered the LARGEST rating decline of any show that season. I want to say it was between 50-70%.

    Cyborg's EDITOR was black. The same one who did Static. He chased both writers off.
    John Rozum is no bum off the street-he was a MILESTONE alum who wrote Static, Xombi & Kobalt.
    Harvey Richards (editor) chose to stand with Scott McDaniel (the artist). Who has ZERO writing experience. DC had no issue with that.
    Marc Bernardin NEVER got a chance because as soon as issue 7 came out-box axed and FANS were blamed.

    Cyborg will get Ivan Reis for an arc then trash artists for the rest of the time. again were was the attempts to bring in great artists as well.
    Brian Selfreeze is not a bum off the street.
    Daniel Acuna is not a bum off the street.
    Cyborg's artists have skins on the wall.
    Artist wise-Scott McDaniel was NOT a bum. He had a long run on Nightwing.
    The artists in many of those books were not bums off the street. Some worked with A list talent and books at Marvel and DC.
    ART was not the issue with those books. It was the WRITING.
    All those books had better art than Squirrel Girl. So how did she get 50 issues? Oh she had decent to good WRITING.
    Look in the bins at your comic book store and see how many IMAGE books with pretty art are there.

    To clear up something-
    Tom King? Before he got Wally-he got DUKE THOMAS. We have seen Batman TRAIN every partner/sidekick. They have had adventures with Batman. Except Duke Thomas. He was BARELY in that Batman book. By 2018-he as GONE after multiple one page cameos.

    I have rarely seen a project with a black character handle well the lone exceptions have Bendis projects Miles and Naomi, and I guess you can put his Luke Cage in that mix.
    You haven't been looking hard enough. Bitter Root, Excellence, Shaft, Dead Letters, Prodigy, Bingo Love, Shadow Man, Far Sector, Virgil, Unknown Solider, Goldie Vance, The original Static run, You Bought Me the Ocean, Livewire, Noble, Cartoon Life of Chuck Clayton and others say HI.

  3. #1368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will Evans View Post
    I mean, what if it ends up being Darwin instead
    To me personally it is more likely to be Darwin that will evolve into a being beyond mutant,he could be equivalent to CoV omega and so become revered or almost worshipped there.Synch and X-23 may remain more like themselves but maybe just changed into really wise old souls kind of like Xorn. What would really be freaky is if Darwin comes out like Proteus a being of pure energy, X-23 comes out like Mercury with her adamantium bonded to every cell in her body and Synch comes out looking like himself with like parts of him permanently different but distinct colours.Like some god trio finishing each other's sentences and claiming they are beyond mutant and want all humanity and mutants to evolve through the vault.Now that would be AWESOME! Haha would be like having Dr.Manhattan in like 3 personalities,Legion would be envious

  4. #1369
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    You haven't been looking hard enough. Bitter Root, Excellence, Shaft, Dead Letters, Prodigy, Bingo Love, Shadow Man, Far Sector, Virgil, Unknown Solider, Goldie Vance, The original Static run, You Bought Me the Ocean, Livewire, Noble, Cartoon Life of Chuck Clayton and others say HI.
    You are so caught up in trying to make your point you missed what said, If this what your response is you clearly missed the point. I am not going back and forth with you I general agree with your points on things but not this point. You can't say that any of projects that I mention were properly supported with a straight face.

    Writing isn't to blame for Static getting a quick hook, Writing isn't to blame for cutting out Cyborg history and support system,etc. Even Coates run has been mismanaged. I am not absolving people in involved of all the blame but talking about black creators at fault in some of this stuff when it is support and upper management messing things up more is silly.

    I didn't mess up in what I said ,Come back talking to me when black creator has one of the best artist in the world, the full support of company, full advertising push and they f' up a fan favorite like that. And the reason I mention Wally West because King failed forward. Hero in crisis sold very well and he still gets to work on big projects. That is what happened when you have great support you can fail the character and still leave character around for use because of sales . Coates is the closest example and 2 artist who are solid names out of how many artist and that isn't enough for the caliber of character Black Panther.

    Lastly I was clearly speaking in context of the big two , You are calling out books that have numbers that would get canceled at Marvel. The Cyborg and Black Panther books which are talking about writers destroying would have run another 30 or 40 issues with Livewire or Noble numbers. So I will say it again I have rarely seen a project with black character handle well (aka talking about Marvel and DC) the lone exceptions are Miles and Naomi they were given the support of great artist and writer and long leash to grow AND the full support of company . Cyborg has been successful in Young Justice, Teen Titans, Doom Patrol, Movie Project animated and live action but some how they can't figure out to use him in a solo book. Static had successful comic run and successful show but dc only give him a handful issues to be successful. And we know what the blueprint for success looks like see Captain Marvel. We know what the Big 2 look likes when they are trying to have successful book. Most of things you are blaming writers you can take one look at know the books will be dead at Marvel and DC.

    Anyways this isn't place for this specific convo in other place I would continue it .We can talk about how Cable and not Bishop keeps getting solos. If we put numbers on Bishops miniseries and Cable series I would bet you money they are generally in the same the range numberwise. And generally you can tell the same type of story with either character. Some how Bishop one of the commanders of Krakoa can't get a book or leadership in a book. I have nothing against Northstar but Bishop works perfectly as leader of team basically doing detective work OR as leader of Hellion trying to keep crew of crazy people in check OR X-force defending Krakoa against enemies. The Marauders is a decent fit but he has biggest role in x-franchise he had in awhile but he is background now being Red Bishop instead of being freaking badass commander of Krakoa.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-05-2020 at 04:01 AM.

  5. #1370
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    Let me just clear something up for everybody.

    Yelling for black writers, editors and all that does not mean you are going to get a quality black character.
    All those folks STILL have to answer to someone higher up. Who gives the final say. Sina Grace can tell you that. McDuffie could too.

    Look up the history of Tyroc from Legion. Folks FOUGHT against him. Levitz excluded him from his legendary run.
    Ask some of these black creators what they had to give up to get that final product made. Static Shock was suppose to be about a WHITE boy named Virgil Hawkins based upon the comic Static.

    I am not saying exclude black folks-I am saying make sure you find some black folks who can over DIVERSE opinions and experiences.

    Someone who will say if you want to do a racism issue-leave BLACK FOLKS OUT. Lets talk about the hatred Dust gets for being Muslim. Lets talk about Iceman and those mutants who are NOT cool with him being gay. Iceman dealing with police brutality towards LGBTQIA community.

    Let Cyclops go to PRODIGY or SHURI for science advice instead of Beast.
    Storm-lets see her embrace whatever African nation she is from.
    Synch-lets see his parents and adoptive siblings and deal with the lack of black folks to adopt black children.
    Lets see Prodigy give a speech at Howard University.
    Heck how about we go OLD SCHOOL-lets see Bishop chilling in a Morehouse Hoodie.
    How many black shows showcased HBCUs without saying a word?
    Show Beast reading James Baldwin.

    No more folks like Coates. No Lena Waithe or Roxanne Gays. No more folks who bathe in the water of black misery. We know the black community is a mess.
    We also know there is a TON of good stuff in it. It's about time we saw it.

  6. #1371
    Mighty Member dkrook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    You are so caught up in trying to make your point you missed what said, If this what your response is you clearly missed the point. I am not going back and forth with you I general agree with your points on things but not this point. You can't say that any of projects that I mention were properly supported with a straight face.

    Writing isn't to blame for Static getting a quick hook, Writing isn't to blame for cutting out Cyborg history and support system,etc. Even Coates run has been mismanaged. I am not absolving people in involved of all the blame but talking about black creators at fault in some of this stuff when it is support and upper management messing things up more is silly.

    I didn't mess up in what I said ,Come back talking to me when black creator has one of the best artist in the world, the full support of company, full advertising push and they f' up a fan favorite like that. And the reason I mention Wally West because King failed forward. Hero in crisis sold very well and he still gets to work on big projects. That is what happened when you have great support you can fail the character and still leave character around for use because of sales . Coates is the closest example and 2 artist who are solid names out of how many artist and that isn't enough for the caliber of character Black Panther.

    Lastly I was clearly speaking in context of the big two , You are calling out books that have numbers that would get canceled at Marvel. The Cyborg and Black Panther books which are talking about writers destroying would have run another 30 or 40 issues with Livewire or Noble numbers. So I will say it again I have rarely seen a project with black character handle well (aka talking about Marvel and DC) the lone exceptions are Miles and Naomi they were given the support of great artist and writer and long leash to grow AND the full support of company . Cyborg has been successful in Young Justice, Teen Titans, Doom Patrol, Movie Project animated and live action but some how they can't figure out to use him in a solo book. Static had successful comic run and successful show but dc only give him a handful issues to be successful. And we know what the blueprint for success looks like see Captain Marvel. We know what the Big 2 look likes when they are trying to have successful book. Most of things you are blaming writers you can take one look at know the books will be dead at Marvel and DC.

    Anyways this isn't place for this specific convo in other place I would continue it .We can talk about how Cable and not Bishop keeps getting solos. If we put numbers on Bishops miniseries and Cable series I would bet you money they are generally in the same the range numberwise. And generally you can tell the same type of story with either character. Some how Bishop one of the commanders of Krakoa can't get a book or leadership in a book. I have nothing against Northstar but Bishop works perfectly as leader of team basically doing detective work OR as leader of Hellion trying to keep crew of crazy people in check OR X-force defending Krakoa against enemies. The Marauders is a decent fit but he has biggest role in x-franchise he had in awhile but he is background now being Red Bishop instead of being freaking badass commander of Krakoa.
    Everything about the second paragraph is hitting all notes of the x-office shenanigans that are perpetual in nature for people who have no idea how to write without horseblinder tunnel vision for the same few characters. That fact we don't have characters really break out in the X-Men is proof writers have jammed the lanes with very basic stories and plotting that lead them to bringing in Hickman to start from scratch and craft stories.

  7. #1372
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Let me just clear something up for everybody.

    Yelling for black writers, editors and all that does not mean you are going to get a quality black character.
    All those folks STILL have to answer to someone higher up. Who gives the final say. Sina Grace can tell you that. McDuffie could too.

    Look up the history of Tyroc from Legion. Folks FOUGHT against him. Levitz excluded him from his legendary run.
    Ask some of these black creators what they had to give up to get that final product made. Static Shock was suppose to be about a WHITE boy named Virgil Hawkins based upon the comic Static.

    I am not saying exclude black folks-I am saying make sure you find some black folks who can over DIVERSE opinions and experiences.

    Someone who will say if you want to do a racism issue-leave BLACK FOLKS OUT. Lets talk about the hatred Dust gets for being Muslim. Lets talk about Iceman and those mutants who are NOT cool with him being gay. Iceman dealing with police brutality towards LGBTQIA community.

    Let Cyclops go to PRODIGY or SHURI for science advice instead of Beast.
    Storm-lets see her embrace whatever African nation she is from.
    Synch-lets see his parents and adoptive siblings and deal with the lack of black folks to adopt black children.
    Lets see Prodigy give a speech at Howard University.
    Heck how about we go OLD SCHOOL-lets see Bishop chilling in a Morehouse Hoodie.
    How many black shows showcased HBCUs without saying a word?
    Show Beast reading James Baldwin.

    No more folks like Coates. No Lena Waithe or Roxanne Gays. No more folks who bathe in the water of black misery. We know the black community is a mess.
    We also know there is a TON of good stuff in it. It's about time we saw it.
    I get what you're saying and having Black writers doesn't guarantee success for Black characters but you gotta have a seat at the table in order to get different voices heard.

    Black writers should be allowed to fail or succeed just like any other writers and not have failure be the defining measure.

  8. #1373
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Let me just clear something up for everybody.

    Yelling for black writers, editors and all that does not mean you are going to get a quality black character.
    All those folks STILL have to answer to someone higher up. Who gives the final say. Sina Grace can tell you that. McDuffie could too.

    Look up the history of Tyroc from Legion. Folks FOUGHT against him. Levitz excluded him from his legendary run.
    Ask some of these black creators what they had to give up to get that final product made. Static Shock was suppose to be about a WHITE boy named Virgil Hawkins based upon the comic Static.

    I am not saying exclude black folks-I am saying make sure you find some black folks who can over DIVERSE opinions and experiences.

    Someone who will say if you want to do a racism issue-leave BLACK FOLKS OUT. Lets talk about the hatred Dust gets for being Muslim. Lets talk about Iceman and those mutants who are NOT cool with him being gay. Iceman dealing with police brutality towards LGBTQIA community.

    Let Cyclops go to PRODIGY or SHURI for science advice instead of Beast.
    Storm-lets see her embrace whatever African nation she is from.
    Synch-lets see his parents and adoptive siblings and deal with the lack of black folks to adopt black children.
    Lets see Prodigy give a speech at Howard University.
    Heck how about we go OLD SCHOOL-lets see Bishop chilling in a Morehouse Hoodie.
    How many black shows showcased HBCUs without saying a word?
    Show Beast reading James Baldwin.

    No more folks like Coates. No Lena Waithe or Roxanne Gays. No more folks who bathe in the water of black misery. We know the black community is a mess.
    We also know there is a TON of good stuff in it. It's about time we saw it.
    Ummm Storm is from America, but i think i get your point as she spent her formative years there. Just read a bit like when people say go back to Africa to people born in america.
    Don't let anyone else hold the candle that lights the way to your future because only you can sustain the flame.

  9. #1374
    Astonishing Member Spinster Sinister's Avatar
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    Synch needs to pull a 'Rogue' and perma-absorb someone else's powers. His abilities are a bit dull. Wish he would've gotten Hope's spot on the Five, but since he's not on that squad I'd love to see his powers go in a different direction.

    Shola was great in Mekanix (although kind of forgettable in Excalibur). Would love to see more of him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    I get what you're saying and having Black writers doesn't guarantee success for Black characters but you gotta have a seat at the table in order to get different voices heard.

    Black writers should be allowed to fail or succeed just like any other writers and not have failure be the defining measure.
    Definitely. I think there's also a tendency to develop white male talent from amateur steadily to pro that I haven't really seen done with Black creators.

  10. #1375
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spinster Sinister View Post
    Synch needs to pull a 'Rogue' and perma-absorb someone else's powers. His abilities are a bit dull. Wish he would've gotten Hope's spot on the Five, but since he's not on that squad I'd love to see his powers go in a different direction.
    Monoma Neito, Kakashi, Lead character of webtoon Unordinary, Peter Petrelli,etc The genre is filled with characters who have a variation of his powers in similar format and they never are the dull characters . Synch has OP ability by design and to double down on this with Synch being able to use powers better than person. It is bad writting if Synch powers comes off as dull.

    Saying Synch need a Rogue is wrong imo .Rogue never need other powers just a better writer. Rogue has secondary powers because of the application of her powers

    A. Rogue has a death touch/ instant KO touch
    B. Rogue can absorb memories
    C. Rogue can temporarily remove powers from people

    They are 100s of people who have super strength in comics they are few people who can do what Rogue can do with her powers. Which bring us to Synch just like Rogue because of how his power works, He has secondary powers

    1. He can track mutants and super power beings because by reverse having to be near to people to use powers means he know one is near
    2. He can gauge the strength of opponent and analyze what their powers can do

    Synch doesn't need to hold a power like Rogue. They just needed to extend the period he can hold powers when not in presence of person by maybe 4 or 5 mins. That way he can escape a dangerous situation or do a little something while not around a powered person. The second thing is improve his baseline fighting abilities. Synch should be a Hand to Hand combat God. It is kinda frustrating because Synch actually has a good power. If anyone doubts Synch ability I am spoiling it a little bit but read the Webtoon "Unordinary" It is story of a person with Synch's power.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-06-2020 at 12:19 AM.

  11. #1376
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    And we know what the blueprint for success looks like see Captain Marvel
    Sorry, I don't keep up with that character/book... and I didn't care for the Ultimates Blue Marvel/BP team.

    So what did you mean by this? If u have a second, just what IS the blueprint for success for a character?
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

  12. #1377
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    Sorry, I don't keep up with that character/book... and I didn't care for the Ultimates Blue Marvel/BP team.

    So what did you mean by this? If u have a second, just what IS the blueprint for success for a character?
    Captain Marvel they have done a couple things to ensure her success

    1. Actively make her apart of events, If you look at recent history of events, She is either part of major story or she gets her own side story mini series
    2. Never let her book get stagnant in sales they understand that if the pitch for that series does not work, it is okay to start over with a new number 1 even when book has solid numbers.
    3. Support her with generally good creative teams
    4. Active write the her as important part of the universe, It might seem like doesn't matter but setting the tone in world influences fans opinions of the character. The character in world at this is Superman, If you read books around DC you will see other characters talking about how amazing Superman is and builds a bias that Superman or other characters are important. Carol was made a leader in Avengers, Alpha Flight, etc and they have built over time a reputation that she is a leader

    They are couple of other little things but general those things are the big ones. A character has to have some inherent popularity for this to work but if Marvel or DC cancel a book after 12 issues does make much sense if they are actually did the ground work for a character. In most case it is really a true evaluation if character can sell. You need about 3 trades or about 18 issues to get a decent evaluation of character. That gives fans solid enough base to figure out character and gives writers a chance to completely go in another direction. Something like Nova with Sam Alexander got a fair shot, Something like Storm solo wasn't really a fair shot.
    Last edited by Killerbee911; 08-06-2020 at 04:51 AM.

  13. #1378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Synch doesn't need to hold a power like Rogue.
    Agreed. IMO, one of the *worst* things about Rogue is that she still lives or dies by the powers she stole from a non-mutant, while her storyline has, for decades, been about how she can't control her mutant power. She went to Xavier's to learn what, exactly? Apparently bupkiss.

    I don't need that 'can't control mah powers' crap with Synch. No need for him to spend a decade failing to learn control (especially since *he already has it*).

    His powers are already awesome. Put him on any X-team, and whoever your most useful member is in any given situation *you now have two of them!* That's insanely useful. "Oh, our telepath is down!" "Bam. I'm your telepath now!" "Colossus can't hold it up much longer!" "Bam, two Colossi, bitches!" And if the enemy has a cool hard-to-match mutant power? "Bam! Let's see how he likes a taste of his own medicine!"

  14. #1379
    Fantastic Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChronoRogue View Post
    I would really to see Sunspot rise in prominence. Hickman using him was nice and his humor was fabulous but I didn't really appreciate just leaving him in space.

    Al Ewing set him up in an interesting position as a major power player with A.I.M., he really should be with X-Corp with Warren and Monet IMO.
    Unfortunately, Sunspot is NEVER drawn as being Afro-Latino.

  15. #1380
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killerbee911 View Post
    Captain Marvel they have done a couple things to ensure her success

    1. Actively make her apart of events, If you look at recent history of events, She is either part of major story or she gets her own side story mini series
    2. Never let her book get stagnant in sales they understand that if the pitch for that series does not work, it is okay to start over with a new number 1 even when book has solid numbers.
    3. Support her with generally good creative teams
    4. Active write the her as important part of the universe, It might seem like doesn't matter but setting the tone in world influences fans opinions of the character. The character in world at this is Superman, If you read books around DC you will see other characters talking about how amazing Superman is and builds a bias that Superman or other characters are important. Carol was made a leader in Avengers, Alpha Flight, etc and they have built over time a reputation that she is a leader

    They are couple of other little things but general those things are the big ones. A character has to have some inherent popularity for this to work but if Marvel or DC cancel a book after 12 issues does make much sense if they are actually did the ground work for a character. In most case it is really a true evaluation if character can sell. You need about 3 trades or about 18 issues to get a decent evaluation of character. That gives fans solid enough base to figure out character and gives writers a chance to completely go in another direction. Something like Nova with Sam Alexander got a fair shot, Something like Storm solo wasn't really a fair shot.
    Huh. I'm gonna really give this some thought and even apply it to other characters I'd like to gain success and I THOUGHT I'd pick this argument apart, but I can find no fault with that strategy.
    I mean I don't "Feel" like she's important even still, but... As far as "What a company DOES" when they want to really PUSH a character I can't find a single fault in how you analyze that. I never really gave it much thought what a "Real" push looks like. They force the character into everything and keep the character relevant in all kinds of things.

    Unfortunately, Sunspot is NEVER drawn as being Afro-Latino.
    He's black but and he should be the center of MANY MANY stories and this is the most BITTER thing in comics. I'm literally NOT going see the New Mutants over the Henry Zaga, trashcasting. . . and moreover? I'm going to tell everyone "avoid this". I don't really do that but its kinda too much to bear.

    Sunspot is the only black character that I think is enviable enough to really want to be in real life. His gift is a curse in NO WAY, Hes Handsome, He's rich... he's carefree. He's a flying brick.
    I really want him base black again... or... tell us he's bleahing like sammy sosa and Charlemagne the God and address self hatred, but since thats beyond the scope of the x-books...
    Restore Him.
    SYNCH
    I hate his rainbows. . . but then some people really like it.

    The best example of someone using a similar powerset to synch imho is Calvin Rankin aka Mimic from the Exiles first run...

    So the whole thing where he Armors up like colossus, flys at you like Cannonball/or Northstar, and then Teleports you into space like Lila Cheney doesn't really happen with him.

    It was a really awesome effect that should played up on synch its VISUALLY really appealing.
    My priority is enjoying and supporting stories of timeless heroism and conflict.
    Everything else is irrelevant.

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