Why haven't any of the Black Male X-men caught on other than Bishop?

[spirit2011]

Yuck....”alpha” postering breeds toxicity. Pacifism shouldn’t be seen as a negative but neither should militantness. Cyclops and Magneto aren’t respected by the greater part of the fandom because of their “alpha”ness, it’s because they strongly hold on to their ideologies. I’ve only see right-wing circles talking about “alpha scott” while ignoring what actually makes him a great character.

I think by Alpha he means a "leader". Magneto nor Cyclops would be where they are only because of their ideologies, it is because they were respected leaders and lots of panel time dedicated about them.

[chief12d]

I tend to think of "alpha" when referring to characters as a shorthand for having traits that promote influence, relevance, leadership, etc. Sunspot as he was written on Avengers and now New Mutants feels like an alpha character despite not necessarily being as gruff or broody as traditional alpha characters like Cyclops or Wolverine. Those characters 100% owe their popularity to the way in which their personalities made them viable and compelling candidates for positions of prominence within the narrative of the X-Men. Storm is someone else who during Claremont's time was given strong character elements that allowed her to take a central role in the direction of the team and that lack of edge to her character is largely responsible for her weak portrayal in recent years.

Sunspot caught on when Hickman decided to put on full display the elements of his character that made him cool and engaging as a hero, such as his massive wealth, his vast experience, and his jovial, inviting personality. By unashamedly harnessing those traits he was able to create an organic situation in which he could gain in-universe importance, lead other heroes, and help drive the overall story. There was also Ewing who followed up on all that with US Avengers. He had all the pieces in place to be a leading character, it just took writers with the desire and ability to put him on. And funny enough that didn't happen until the Avengers office got hold of him. I'm 99% sure that if Hickman didn't come to the X-Men next to none of the development Sunspot got would've been followed up on in any meaningful way that made him important to the X-Men as a whole.

Gentle will almost certainly never reach the level of Sunspot or white characters like Gambit because his passivity is limiting. He's more geared toward being a more important character's shoulder to cry on than the type to take the reins and do something that drives the story. So in a large team setting (especially when characters are reduced to their base traits) it's easy to keep him in the background and not have him rock the boat. Sure, he can Hulk out every now and then but it takes more than occasional moments of badassery to build a substantial following and be relevant to the story. He simply lacks the air of a character that warrants any attention when discussing the movers and shakers of mutantdom.

[KurtW95]

Evan Daniels should have made it to the comics canon a long time ago but sadly I wouldn’t wish him to be involved in the current mess where even the good mutants are evil.

[ComeOnBunny]

Yuck....”alpha” postering breeds toxicity. Pacifism shouldn’t be seen as a negative but neither should militantness. Cyclops and Magneto aren’t respected by the greater part of the fandom because of their “alpha”ness, it’s because they strongly hold on to their ideologies. I’ve only see right-wing circles talking about “alpha scott” while ignoring what actually makes him a great character.



Oh ****, how did I miss this??? My main man!!!!!

I think it is different for everyone I don't mind pacifism to a certain extent but I despise pacifism at the face of mass murder. I feel there is no need for pacifism or moral superiority against trash that want to murder a entire people because of how much melanin they have. I also despise the idea that using force to defend themselves against being murdered is considered violence instead of justice.

[Killerbee911]

I tend to think of "alpha" when referring to characters as a shorthand for having traits that promote influence, relevance, leadership, etc..

Good post.


That is how I was pretty much using it earlier, In comics we don't get to be around the characters all time 24/7, so for a character to be seen as something important. It has to be exaggerated way up so it stands out. Which is why Alpha is fitting in this context because "Alpha" is an exaggerated leadership or attitude. Pretty much anybody in real life who is using the phrase " I am Alpha" is going to out of their way to show you how much they are the "leader"/ "the big man" while that is toxic as hell in real life comic book world that is only way to stand out. For Wolverine it is exaggerated how much of badass he is and everything stories to play on that, For Cyclops it is exaggerated how good leader he is and they do everything in stories to play up that, For Gambit it was the smooth and suave ladies man he was and he was super popular it was that element being exaggerated. If you checkout the popular characters they have a personality trait and job/skill that tend to get exaggerated way up for effect.

There is nothing wrong with passive or pacifist characters but Synch, Darwin, Triage, Prodigy, etc. All their personalities is pretty much with in the same spectrum and I think that is pretty weird. I don't know if they are trying to avoid the angry black man or thug thing but characters are in this safe bland area and they won't stand out in a book. I think most of them are supposed to be the Will Smith/Michael B. Jordan type they have charisma and this spark but are down to earth and normal but obviously that unique charm is showing up in the page.They are other things you can do personality wise. What about someone smooth, sexy and charming like Idris Elba? What about someone who is loud and animated with no filter like Samuel L Jackson? What about someone who has intimidating physical presence like Ving Rhames? What about someone comes off as deep and introspective like Kendrick Lamar? What about someone who is a little bit weird quirky and dark but cool like xxxtentacion or uzi vert? I don't know how they keep creating black characters and we keep getting vanilla safe swaggless character. And that is where Alpha stuff comes in play because we aren't seeing characters good qualities then maybe it has to be exaggerated and peacocked around on the page like people who tell you they are alphas in real life.

The best example is the current Sunspot, under Hickman his personality is dial up to 100, So you are really getting the "I am Rich" " I am little bit cocky" " I think of myself as ladies man" vibe from Sunspot. Plus he has a leadership role in New Mutants so he is really standing out. He isn't the only character this happening to see Magneto, Magik, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse and their personalities are dial up to max to establish who they are right now. So yeah I want Prodigy running around going yeah "I am smart than you" "I am the smartest mutant in the world", I want Synch to be expressed as tactical genius and everyone in the books say stuff like "Wow he is a really good leader" " I don't even think Cyclops,Black Panther or Captain America would have come up with plan", Maybe for Triage " You have Emma or some other female comment on how sexy he is" and how handsome he is becomes part of his thing. Alpha for me is forced exaggerated importance.

[dkrook]

Good post.


That is how I was pretty much using it earlier, In comics we don't get to be around the characters all time 24/7, so for a character to be seen as something important. It has to be exaggerated way up so it stands out. Which is why Alpha is fitting in this context because "Alpha" is an exaggerated leadership or attitude. Pretty much anybody in real life who is using the phrase " I am Alpha" is going to out of their way to show you how much they are the "leader"/ "the big man" while that is toxic as hell in real life comic book world that is only way to stand out. For Wolverine it is exaggerated how much of badass he is and everything stories to play on that, For Cyclops it is exaggerated how good leader he is and they do everything in stories to play up that, For Gambit it was the smooth and suave ladies man he was and he was super popular it was that element being exaggerated. If you checkout the popular characters they have a personality trait and job/skill that tend to get exaggerated way up for effect.

There is nothing wrong with passive or pacifist characters but Synch, Darwin, Triage, Prodigy, etc. All their personalities is pretty much with in the same spectrum and I think that is pretty weird. I don't know if they are trying to avoid the angry black man or thug thing but characters are in this safe bland area and they won't stand out in a book. I think most of them are supposed to be the Will Smith/Michael B. Jordan type they have charisma and this spark but are down to earth and normal but obviously that unique charm is showing up in the page.They are other things you can do personality wise. What about someone smooth, sexy and charming like Idris Elba? What about someone who is loud and animated with no filter like Samuel L Jackson? What about someone who has intimidating physical presence like Ving Rhames? What about someone comes off as deep and introspective like Kendrick Lamar? What about someone who is a little bit weird quirky and dark but cool like xxxtentacion or uzi vert? I don't know how they keep creating black characters and we keep getting vanilla safe swaggless character. And that is where Alpha stuff comes in play because we aren't seeing characters good qualities then maybe it has to be exaggerated and peacocked around on the page like people who tell you they are alphas in real life.

The best example is the current Sunspot, under Hickman his personality is dial up to 100, So you are really getting the "I am Rich" " I am little bit cocky" " I think of myself as ladies man" vibe from Sunspot. Plus he has a leadership role in New Mutants so he is really standing out. He isn't the only character this happening to see Magneto, Magik, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse and their personalities are dial up to max to establish who they are right now. So yeah I want Prodigy running around going yeah "I am smart than you" "I am the smartest mutant in the world", I want Synch to be expressed as tactical genius and everyone in the books say stuff like "Wow he is a really good leader" " I don't even think Cyclops,Black Panther or Captain America would have come up with plan", Maybe for Triage " You have Emma or some other female comment on how sexy he is" and how handsome he is becomes part of his thing. Alpha for me is forced exaggerated importance.

Thanks for the eloquent elaboration of the exact context I was using for "Alpha" I'm often left to wonder are we getting more "Carlton Banks" and less "Mace Windu" characters because the writers and creators tend to be white guys and even in 2020, there still seems to be some kind of weird fear/aversion to aggressive, and or assertive black males. Just to really put this question out there. Heck, can anyone tell me the last X-Men went up against a Doom or MCU Killmonger type Black male villain???

[CRaymond]

there still seems to be some kind of weird fear/aversion to aggressive, and or assertive black males.

Wrote something like this an hour ago and deleted it. There are too few acceptable stereotypes for black characters.

Heck, can anyone tell me the last X-Men went up against a Doom or MCU Killmonger type Black male villain???

They should amp the blackness of Apocalypse.

[spirit2011]

Thanks for the eloquent elaboration of the exact context I was using for "Alpha" I'm often left to wonder are we getting more "Carlton Banks" and less "Mace Windu" characters because the writers and creators tend to be white guys and even in 2020, there still seems to be some kind of weird fear/aversion to aggressive, and or assertive black males. Just to really put this question out there. Heck, can anyone tell me the last X-Men went up against a Doom or MCU Killmonger type Black male villain???

"Alpha" is a word with bad conotation (toxicity) that I think is better to not use.

I always think the best way is have diversity. So we can have different personalities, instead of Token angry guy or token passive guy.

I think cyborg on JL was a good example of what not to do. I think it was David Walker wrote about how emasculated the only black character on JL was. The character suffered a accident when getting powers, he was all machine waist down and was used as a transport bus and computer guy.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thanks for the eloquent elaboration of the exact context I was using for "Alpha" I'm often left to wonder are we getting more "Carlton Banks" and less "Mace Windu" characters because the writers and creators tend to be white guys and even in 2020, there still seems to be some kind of weird fear/aversion to aggressive, and or assertive black males. Just to really put this question out there. Heck, can anyone tell me the last X-Men went up against a Doom or MCU Killmonger type Black male villain???

"Alpha" is a word with bad conotation (toxicity) that I think is better to not use.

I always think the best way is have diversity. So we can have different personalities, instead of Token angry guy or token passive guy.

I think cyborg on JL was a good example of what not to do. I think it was David Walker wrote about how emasculated the only black character on JL was. The character suffered a accident when getting powers, he was all machine waist down and was used as a transport bus and computer guy.

Good points. I think Cyborg's solo series over at DC tried to give him more substantive characterization than just that, particularly given one of them was written by the same guy who did the writing for Spider-Man: The Animated Series back in the 90s. As for the issue of a Doom- or MCU Killmonger-style black male antagonist for the X-Men, Moses Magnum is the first one that comes to mind as having the potential for that kind of elevation.

[davetvs]

Good post.


That is how I was pretty much using it earlier, In comics we don't get to be around the characters all time 24/7, so for a character to be seen as something important. It has to be exaggerated way up so it stands out. Which is why Alpha is fitting in this context because "Alpha" is an exaggerated leadership or attitude. Pretty much anybody in real life who is using the phrase " I am Alpha" is going to out of their way to show you how much they are the "leader"/ "the big man" while that is toxic as hell in real life comic book world that is only way to stand out. For Wolverine it is exaggerated how much of badass he is and everything stories to play on that, For Cyclops it is exaggerated how good leader he is and they do everything in stories to play up that, For Gambit it was the smooth and suave ladies man he was and he was super popular it was that element being exaggerated. If you checkout the popular characters they have a personality trait and job/skill that tend to get exaggerated way up for effect.

There is nothing wrong with passive or pacifist characters but Synch, Darwin, Triage, Prodigy, etc. All their personalities is pretty much with in the same spectrum and I think that is pretty weird. I don't know if they are trying to avoid the angry black man or thug thing but characters are in this safe bland area and they won't stand out in a book. I think most of them are supposed to be the Will Smith/Michael B. Jordan type they have charisma and this spark but are down to earth and normal but obviously that unique charm is showing up in the page.They are other things you can do personality wise. What about someone smooth, sexy and charming like Idris Elba? What about someone who is loud and animated with no filter like Samuel L Jackson? What about someone who has intimidating physical presence like Ving Rhames? What about someone comes off as deep and introspective like Kendrick Lamar? What about someone who is a little bit weird quirky and dark but cool like xxxtentacion or uzi vert? I don't know how they keep creating black characters and we keep getting vanilla safe swaggless character. And that is where Alpha stuff comes in play because we aren't seeing characters good qualities then maybe it has to be exaggerated and peacocked around on the page like people who tell you they are alphas in real life.

The best example is the current Sunspot, under Hickman his personality is dial up to 100, So you are really getting the "I am Rich" " I am little bit cocky" " I think of myself as ladies man" vibe from Sunspot. Plus he has a leadership role in New Mutants so he is really standing out. He isn't the only character this happening to see Magneto, Magik, Mr. Sinister, Apocalypse and their personalities are dial up to max to establish who they are right now. So yeah I want Prodigy running around going yeah "I am smart than you" "I am the smartest mutant in the world", I want Synch to be expressed as tactical genius and everyone in the books say stuff like "Wow he is a really good leader" " I don't even think Cyclops,Black Panther or Captain America would have come up with plan", Maybe for Triage " You have Emma or some other female comment on how sexy he is" and how handsome he is becomes part of his thing. Alpha for me is forced exaggerated importance.

I totally agree with this post but honestly, The X-Men (and Marvel as a whole) would need more black writers to properly pull that off and that is the crux of the issue.

[Huntsman Spider]

I totally agree with this post but honestly, The X-Men (and Marvel as a whole) would need more black writers to properly pull that off and that is the crux of the issue.

Indeed. It's a common thread throughout fictional media that for all the diversity represented onscreen or on the printed page by the characters and/or actors, the actual shaping and telling of those stories behind the scenes is still in the hands of a roster of creatives (and executives) who largely don't represent that diversity.

[jwatson]

None of the Solos announced so far in the X-line features a character of color. I'm sure that plays a part as well.

[Beaddle]

Evan Daniels should have made it to the comics canon a long time ago but sadly I wouldn’t wish him to be involved in the current mess where even the

Even Daniels for some weird reasons was not a fan favorite though his character development in season 4 was the best of the bunch apart from Rogue's story line.

I agree that with a little push, he could have been the mutant answer to Miles Morales.

As for the general issue, It is obvious that Storm got so big as a black character in comics that marvel never cared to create a male black counterpart. Although Bishop is a quite established male character in x-men. I remember people feeling disappointed that he only made a cameo in the DOFP movie.

good mutants are evil.

All mutants tend to be evil.

[Sutekh]

As for the general issue, It is obvious that Storm got so big as a black character in comics that marvel never cared to create a male black counterpart. Although Bishop is a quite established male character in x-men. I remember people feeling disappointed that he only made a cameo in the DOFP movie.

I think (as a cynical white dude) it's more about what white dudes are afraid of. Powerful dudes of color. We can safely objectify black or Asian or tina hotties as 'exotic beauties' to be tamed, but heaven forfend our power-fantasies** include black or Asian or Latin *men* who might threaten our fragile and fading delusion that the world exists to cater to us, exclusively.

Even if that characterization isn't true of many of us, or even most of us, it's a *perception* that exists, and seems to perniciously affect how many (read: few, or none) powerful and significant black, Asian or Latino (or even Native American) *men* there created and used as X-Men, Justice League, Avengers, etc. And when it does get turned on it's head, say, with Stormwatch, a team led by Battalion, a pretty awesome and powerful black man, that team gets replaced by a bunch of white peeps, as the Authority, which sells a heck of a lot better, unfortunately.

** (And that's part of the delusion that needs to die, that comic books are ours. Unfortunately, it's catered so long to us, that's all it knows, and it's an uphill slog for marketing departments with no freaking clue how to attract the attention of potential customers who are not us white dudes to a product that, historically, has not been for them... And so they give it a stumbling half-hearted tone-deaf try, fail to get the sales numbers they want, throw their hands up and claim that they tried, and it's not their fault that 'fans wouldn't buy it.')

[CRaymond]

I think (as a cynical white dude) it's more about what white dudes are afraid of. Powerful dudes of color. We can safely objectify black or Asian or tina hotties as 'exotic beauties' to be tamed, but heaven forfend our power-fantasies** include black or Asian or Latin *men* who might threaten our fragile and fading delusion that the world exists to cater to us, exclusively.

Gonna double up on this. Well said.

Authority was brazen and brutal, but Stormwatch under Battalion had SO MUCH more style. It had a truly international cast!