Why haven't any of the Black Male X-men caught on other than Bishop?

[skyvolt2000]

This doesn't answer his or her point. For every Hill there's 100 or more crap, white writers that still get work or get new books. Why, has he disappeared? after Fallen Angel and why that story? especially when they knew that kwannon was going to be getting her own mini-solo with Demon Days.

Hill is also a writer for DC's Titans tv show.
Hill was doing the Batman and Outsiders book and got an earful for how Duke Thomas was done.
Hill wanted to get back into doing what he was doing before comics-movie scripts and he is doing one for Black (the book from Black Mask).

That is why he disappeared-he was actually ready to leave comics.

But for every brian hill there are a 1000 white writers who did worse and still more yet and actually sold less than that travesty as well.

https://goodmenproject.com/komplicat...enied-by-sdcc/

Here’s a trivia question for you: Aside from the titles he published himself, what was Dwayne’s first monthly comics writing assignment? Believe it or not, that was Justice League of America in 2007. “But what about Deathlok,” you ask? Sorry, that was co-written with the redoubtable Greg Wright. “Fantastic Four?” Nope, it wasn’t open-ended. Dwayne knew that was a finite assignment when he took it. “X-O Manowar? Firestorm?” Same deal.

The majors never appreciated Dwayne’s writing enough to grant him a steady job of it. Not until there had been a Static cartoon, and the Justice League cartoon. And Beyond! And Fantastic Four. And Milestone, of course. By the time he landed that regular monthly, Dwayne was already in the history books of two media.

Now, naming no names, think of how many not-so-good writers you’ve seen blunder from one long-term monthly comic assignment to another. (And sure, who qualifies as a hack is subjective. You and I might not be thinking of the same names.) Each of those writers got more of a shot than Dwayne did.

Look at what McDuffie had to do just get Justice League. It took him 22 years.
Jason Aaron 6 to do it at BOTH companies. Cates 5 years. Liefeld 5-6 years.

Tried it. Give a black man a book with the worst artist and the dumbest storyline and then use that for why books with black writers aren't supported.

Well that is the defense. Good or bad we are expected to support badly done books by black writers. Folks want to JEDI handwave any discussion about actual issues with the book (See Black Panther).

Meanwhile as we saw at DC-bad white writers KEPT getting books. Not just books with Z listers but books with names. Names that ENSURE that book will get orders above cancellation numbers.

[danielsan52]

I still want to see Derrick Beacon return with his weird gel powers.

[Devaishwarya]

Let's not even wait for LaValle to come on board...
I thought Vita killed it on Marauders 13 and is slaying on New Mutants. From what I've read, CotA 01 was just okies but then I'm not really interested in those characters so my bias is showing, there.
How many in here have outright denounced Vita as not a good writer? And don't read their books?
How many here continue to denounce Duggan, Howard, HiX-Man as "bad" writers? And don't read their books?
How many vehemently denounce Coates' writing of Black Panther? And don't read that book?

Clearly, nobody is "expected" to like, follow, and support a writer because they're Black...I certainly don't.
Marvel isn't intentionally giving us "Bad" PoC writers, Hudlin, Coates, Hill, Ayala and LaValle are all accomplished......We are the ones making that judgement. We are the ones playing "judge, jury and executioner" here. And that's okies...no one is being forced to buy read support a book/writer we don't like (If you do, then that's entirely on you).

All I can say is...Thank the Goddess CBR'ers don't represent the majority of the actual global readership. Else no title would ever be a hit.

[jwatson]

Let's not even wait for LaValle to come on board...
I thought Vita killed it on Marauders 13 and is slaying on New Mutants. From what I've read, CotA 01 was just okies but then I'm not really interested in those characters so my bias is showing, there.
How many in here have outright denounced Vita as not a good writer? And don't read their books?
How many here continue to denounce Duggan, Howard, HiX-Man as "bad" writers? And don't read their books?
How many vehemently denounce Coates' writing of Black Panther? And don't read that book?

Clearly, nobody is "expected" to like, follow, and support a writer because they're Black...I certainly don't.
Marvel isn't intentionally giving us "Bad" PoC writers, Hudlin, Coates, Hill, Ayala and LaValle are all accomplished......We are the ones making that judgement. We are the ones playing "judge, jury and executioner" here. And that's okies...no one is being forced to buy read support a book/writer we don't like (If you do, then that's entirely on you).

All I can say is...Thank the Goddess CBR'ers don't represent the majority of the actual global readership. Else no title would ever be a hit.

I think your confusing fans. I'm just going to leave it at that. IT seems your jumbling a lot of perspectives from a lot of threads and them dumping them all together in this one and it doesn't really make sense to the topic at hand imo. You basically are saying take it or leave it in a thread that is specifically asking why they aren't more. Your simply telling people to get over it, which is fine, but i'm not really sure what your going for. You got marvel stock?

[Devaishwarya]

That's absolutely not what I'm saying at all.

Ill go back and bold the pertinent points.

It's not that we don't have PoC writers (yes, there could be more) it's simply that we chose to follow and support or not to follow and support based on our own interests and subjective opinions on their work.

And to be clear...I'm just following up on a comment that specifically mentioned not having any PoC writers in the franchise.

And to bring it back to the OP the same can be said of Black and other PoC characters. A writer (White or PoC) using a more diverse set of characters does not guarantee that said characters will "catch on".

[jwatson]

Ok but i loved Marauders 13. I do support Vita Ayala. i did give coates run a turn until it turned out to be terrible. I did give fallen angel a chance and he did get a lesser character in a new age and a cut and paste artist worse thaan Greg land. I couldn't keep supporting that in good conscious. I am buying America chavez i bought Cota. So that still doesn't answer the question for me why isn't there more representation. For what we have of black writers i would say percentage wise their stuff is far more quality than if you take the white writers and do that percentage wise. So it doesn't make sense that there is any excuse why they don't get more opportunities.

I also don't get the false narrative that the audience isn't there. Well isn't that true for every character that gets a reboot. Why do Captain America, Carol Danvers, Thor, Daredevil, Spiderman, all of them keep getting reboots. The fact of the matter is because the sales are not there and thus they do it to bring in new audiences, so why don't black characters get that same benefit. If any of those white characters were selling well or there was a substantial audience there they would be on issue 1000 or something because no one is going to cancel a book that sells well above what is considered profitable just because.

[dkrook]

Let's not even wait for LaValle to come on board...
I thought Vita killed it on Marauders 13 and is slaying on New Mutants. From what I've read, CotA 01 was just okies but then I'm not really interested in those characters so my bias is showing, there.
How many in here have outright denounced Vita as not a good writer? And don't read their books?
How many here continue to denounce Duggan, Howard, HiX-Man as "bad" writers? And don't read their books?
How many vehemently denounce Coates' writing of Black Panther? And don't read that book?

Clearly, nobody is "expected" to like, follow, and support a writer because they're Black...I certainly don't.
Marvel isn't intentionally giving us "Bad" PoC writers, Hudlin, Coates, Hill, Ayala and LaValle are all accomplished......We are the ones making that judgement. We are the ones playing "judge, jury and executioner" here. And that's okies...no one is being forced to buy read support a book/writer we don't like (If you do, then that's entirely on you).

All I can say is...Thank the Goddess CBR'ers don't represent the majority of the actual global readership. Else no title would ever be a hit.

I will give you that Vita is a solid writer, I liked what she did with Bishop in the mini X-team book she wrote, despise how she did Black Panther in Marauders #13. To be very specific about writing black male mutants/heroes, hell yeah Duggan is trash! How do I know this, I read the the series from its start. Coates is trash! Again this was decided after READING, and understanding the narrative he was forcing a character into that was a misrepresentation of the heart of who Black Panther is/was. Writers should always be good researchers on their subject matter. What depth, and dimension is being written for Bishop by Duggan ? Tell me how this wanna be writer is using his purported skill to elevate the black male character on HIS book? You like it? Cool! You love it? Great! You have no right to low key try to clown folk that see their work as lacking. I will definitely agree with you that folks should be mindful of criticism without reading at least.

[dkrook]

Ok but i loved Marauders 13. I do support Vita Ayala. i did give coates run a turn until it turned out to be terrible. I did give fallen angel a chance and he did get a lesser character in a new age and a cut and paste artist worse thaan Greg land. I couldn't keep supporting that in good conscious. I am buying America chavez i bought Cota. So that still doesn't answer the question for me why isn't there more representation. For what we have of black writers i would say percentage wise their stuff is far more quality than if you take the white writers and do that percentage wise. So it doesn't make sense that there is any excuse why they don't get more opportunities.

I also don't get the false narrative that the audience isn't there. Well isn't that true for every character that gets a reboot. Why do Captain America, Carol Danvers, Thor, Daredevil, Spiderman, all of them keep getting reboots. The fact of the matter is because the sales are not there and thus they do it to bring in new audiences, so why don't black characters get that same benefit. If any of those white characters were selling well or there was a substantial audience there they would be on issue 1000 or something because no one is going to cancel a book that sells well above what is considered profitable just because.

360 degrees of fire fam! Simply stated facts of the matter. Guarantee there's no real answer to point you brought out.

[jwatson]

360 degrees of fire fam! Simply stated facts of the matter. Guarantee there's no real answer to point you brought out.

And when that doesn't work they try to add on "well it's because it's a dying industry." Well if you knew a certain kind of food your dog liked was killing your dog slowly would you keep feeding your dog the same food. It's like come on. The industry dying so lets save it by giving it exactly what is killing it by the people who are murdering it.

[dkrook]

And when that doesn't work they try to add on "well it's because it's a dying industry." Well if you knew a certain kind of food your dog liked was killing your dog slowly would you keep feeding your dog the same food. It's like come on. The industry dying so lets save it by giving it exactly what is killing it by the people who are murdering it.

Mind-blowing clarity statement, lol! It further illustrates that there are certain demographics on both ends of the business that despise evolving and the willingness to see there's so much more to offer this medium creatively. MCU is showing all of us what can happen when black male heroes are given REAL interest and investment, including agency to stand equal to white heroes. Look no further than FATWS! The X-office needs Kevin Feige to come in, clean house and bring in truly creative professionals that can work on making black properties equally popular as their white ones.

[Sutekh]

Mind-blowing clarity statement, lol! It further illustrates that there are certain demographics on both ends of the business that despise evolving and the willingness to see there's so much more to offer this medium creatively. MCU is showing all of us what can happen when black male heroes are given REAL interest and investment, including agency to stand equal to white heroes. Look no further than FATWS! The X-office needs Kevin Feige to come in, clean house and bring in truly creative professionals that can work on making black properties equally popular as their white ones.

That is one thing that makes me kinda happy about how long it's taken for Marvel to get it's house in order regarding ownership of the X-properties rights. If Marvel had been able to make an X-Men movie just 10 or so years ago, when the first Avengers movie came out, it would be the All-White X-Men, just as it was the All-White Avengers.

But we're crawling forward, even from dusty depths of 2012, and I suspect that if there's an X-Men movie coming from Marvel / Disney in the next 10 years, it's going to have some POC front and center.

And yeah, it would be nice to see some action on the comic-book front, as well.

[skyvolt2000]

So that still doesn't answer the question for me why isn't there more representation. For what we have of black writers i would say percentage wise their stuff is far more quality than if you take the white writers and do that percentage wise. So it doesn't make sense that there is any excuse why they don't get more opportunities.

Black stuff might be of more QUALITY but how much of it is QUANITY?

My challenge to all is look at your comic book store bins, Half Price book bins, Grab bags, ANYTIME Midtown does 70-90% off or 99 cent issue sale and clearance bins.
How many white writer books can you find? How many black? In other words it's easy to get access to white writers books at lower prices than many of the black ones.

So take a writer like Al Ewing-20 series before Immortal Hulk. Folks has 20 shots to try his work in those 5 cheap ways and gain fans.

Now lets take Vita. They had maybe 4 (Livewire, Morbius, Black Devil's Due & The Wilds as writer for the whole run). 4 books that do NOT pack bins. New Mutants is probably the only book that would be in bins as Static WON'T. Static is the book that folks buy DAY ONE.

For most of our black writers-they are not working on books that would be at lower prices via the reasons I list in large numbers.
So if you have an editor who grew up and lived off bins and sales-what writers are they going to seek out?

Another thing to be looked at-PAY

Is everyone getting the same pay rate (with respect to experience). I was looking up social workers in my state and the pay median pay gap...

White and Asian was $1069
White and Native American $150
White and Black $2534
White and Hispanic $3664
Men and women $1369 (10,000 are WOMEN)

Ed Brubaker pointed this out- Sean Phillips with WOULD work in comic more if it paid more.

[Devaishwarya]

Vita is currently writing a diverse cast, both in CotA and NM...yet other than the few of us here who actually read their books...They're not getting much push and interest from the readers.
HiX-Man just elevated Synch in what I thought was an awesome story arc. And the folk here are still grumbling and finding fault.

From what we are getting now...across the franchises, not just the X-Books, Marvel seems to be course-correcting and making the effort. But...Decades of systemic adverse culture is not going to change overnight...and if that's what we expect, then we are bound for disappointment.

And yes...for those who put such importance on the numbers...It is a dying industry. You can put your best selling writer on a book featuring mainly Black and PoC characters and it still won't sell in the hundreds of thousands and those characters won't catch on. No book is consistently selling in the hundred thousands. The effort it would take to introduce and develop and push a relatively unknown Black character now to the point where they're as "Big As" Captain America and Spiderman and Iron Man, (Bishop is certainly not in that category) in this market...would have to be phenomenal, and still it would not be a guaranteed financial and fan-acclaimed success. Because...

The industry has changed, significantly so, since the 90's.
Readers have changed, significantly so, since the 90's.
Interest in Comic Books (not the movies) has changed, significantly so, since the 90's.

And we just cannot ignore that it has changed. Even if Fiege comes in and "cleans house" (which will never happen, btw) it's still not guaranteed that things will get miraculously better for Black Male characters. That's a fool's hope. A lovely but foolish thought.

[jwatson]

Vita is currently writing a diverse cast, both in CotA and NM...yet other than the few of us here who actually read their books...They're not getting much push and interest from the readers.
HiX-Man just elevated Synch in what I thought was an awesome story arc. And the folk here are still grumbling and finding fault.

From what we are getting now...across the franchises, not just the X-Books, Marvel seems to be course-correcting and making the effort. But...Decades of systemic adverse culture is not going to change overnight...and if that's what we expect, then we are bound for disappointment.

And yes...for those who put such importance on the numbers...It is a dying industry. You can put your best selling writer on a book featuring mainly Black and PoC characters and it still won't sell in the hundreds of thousands and those characters won't catch on. No book is consistently selling in the hundred thousands. The effort it would take to introduce and develop and push a relatively unknown Black character now to the point where they're as "Big As" Captain America and Spiderman and Iron Man, (Bishop is certainly not in that category) in this market...would have to be phenomenal, and still it would not be a guaranteed financial and fan-acclaimed success. Because...

The industry has changed, significantly so, since the 90's.
Readers have changed, significantly so, since the 90's.
Interest in Comic Books (not the movies) has changed, significantly so, since the 90's.

And we just cannot ignore that it has changed. Even if Fiege comes in and "cleans house" (which will never happen, btw) it's still not guaranteed that things will get miraculously better for Black Male characters. That's a fool's hope. A lovely but foolish thought.

which is still much better than being on of the people who sit on there hands and do nothing essentially just letting it die slowly. It's comics not the post office. The problem is the formula is as left behind as the "hardcore" fans. I mean it is what is. If your seeing it in all or nothings than that mindset in of itself is part of the problem. today/tomorrow none/all.

[Devaishwarya]

It's not all or nothing. As we can clearly see effort is being made. Time will have to tell if such efforts prove fruitful.