Young Avengers appreciation 2019

[J. D. Guy]

Rayshaun is in a real pickle where he was set up nicely but he doesn't have a place to actually grow or have an arc. He's also not Joaquin, and anyone pales in comparison when they're in the same room as that hunk of awesome.

I know this is literally a month old. But I wanted to say that I agree that Rayshaun's intro and opening slavo were nice, strong establishments, but he suffers because he doesn't have a steady home to grow and continue his development and progression. The first arc of the new (and now cancelled ) Falcon did really good on that front. But the book is cancelled. That's not nearly enough, and worse, it leaves the audience, fans, and potential fans of the character left hanging indefinitely. It also means people who are on the fence or who could be potentially turned around won't have more of that good display to sway them to liking Rayshaun.

He's has nuance, and he had that strong opener, but with no home, he won't be able to grow and establish the foothold he should and otherwise would have.


Also, I'm ultra pleased to see someone who's that fond of Joaquin! The two are different enough in life perspectives that both deserve to exist, but even Rayshaun was shown anxiety when it came to living up to Joaquin's example, despite the somewhat vitriolic behavior that Rayshaun was shown to have to Joaquin directly to his face. (And yeah, dude is pretty hunky!)


EDIT:

On a different note, that poll was interesting. Don't have twitter, so I didn't take part (and didn't even know it was a thing until well after it ended), but it was certainly an interesting experience.

Read the reply line, and I noticed how many people treated Teddy and Billy as a single, indivisible, indistinguishable unit. The two are an awesome couple who are indeed rarely seen apart, but they are also two characters in their own rights. I felt the choice of keeping them separate poll options was sound. (Sometimes there really are hard choices.)

I also noticed and kinda got confirmation of what I've noticed before; some of fans of Billy and Teddy who see the two as one unit default to Billy as the face. At least one person outright acknowledged that in their voting of Billy. I think that's why Billy got more votes and why his and Teddy's weren't as evenly split as I rather wished they would have been. In theory, voting for Teddy would also do the same, but it seems to not be the case for those fans. I feel bad for Teddy, and kind of see that as a recurring thing with these two.

Further, because Speed has the lowest amount of page-time between everyone on that poll, and because he hasn't appeared since his brief time in the most recent Young Avengers run (where he only really had focus/characterization in a single issue) compared to Billy and Teddy who both had awesome and respectable showings during New Avengers (love that book!), I get the feeling this swayed votes in his favor over Teddy's. They may like Teddy, maybe even as much or more than Tommy, but they feel Tommy "needed" the vote more.

Lastly, this may be just due to my own personal disconnect, but I'm surprised to see Cassie has such a relatively large following that she would dominate and win the poll. Like, how many people voted, in general and for Cassie specifically? Can that be discerned from on our side or only on the poll-maker's? At least 2,500~ from what I think I gathered?

So again, interesting!

[Drops Of Venus]

On a different note, that poll was interesting. Don't have twitter, so I didn't take part (and didn't even know it was a thing until well after it ended), but it was certainly an interesting experience.

Read the reply line, and I noticed how many people treated Teddy and Billy as a single, indivisible, indistinguishable unit. The two are an awesome couple who are indeed rarely seen apart, but they are also two characters in their own rights. I felt the choice of keeping them separate poll options was sound. (Sometimes there really are hard choices.)

I also noticed and kinda got confirmation of what I've noticed before; some of fans of Billy and Teddy who see the two as one unit default to Billy as the face. At least one person outright acknowledged that in their voting of Billy. I think that's why Billy got more votes and why his and Teddy's weren't as evenly split as I rather wished they would have been. In theory, voting for Teddy would also do the same, but it seems to not be the case for those fans. I feel bad for Teddy, and kind of see that as a recurring thing with these two.

I don't necessarily see the two of them as a unit (I mean, I am super invested in them as a couple, but that doesn't mean I'm not invested in them as individual characters as well), but yeah, I gotta admit that I'm guilty as charged of seeing Billy ''as the face''. If given the option, I will absolutely choose the both of them, but having to choose just one often makes me go towards Billy for some reason. I feel like this happened in the previous Young Avengers Appreciation Thread, in which we had a poll for the favorite character. Billy was winning it and Teddy had a surprisingly low number of votes in comparison. I don't think this happened because he's unpopular, but rather because a lot of people felt torn about choosing between one of them and Teddy just got the short end of the stick because Billy is just the kind of character that stands out.

Lastly, this may be just due to my own personal disconnect, but I'm surprised to see Cassie has such a relatively large following that she would dominate and win the poll. Like, how many people voted, in general and for Cassie specifically? Can that be discerned from on our side or only on the poll-maker's? At least 2,500~ from what I think I gathered?

I think this might have something to do with the audience following Jeremy Whitley's Twitter. He is known for his work with young female characters and is currently writing Wasp, so I guess a lot of people who follow him would lean towards Cassie. Just a guess. Anyway, I'm pissed she won, not because I hate her or anything, but because she was the one character from the poll we already knew was showing up on Whitley's book, so what's the point? Billy, Tommy and Teddy were the ones who actually needed the spotlight. I hope Whitley just have all of them guest in his book anyway.

[J. D. Guy]

I don't necessarily see the two of them as a unit (I mean, I am super invested in them as a couple, but that doesn't mean I'm not invested in them as individual characters as well), but yeah, I gotta admit that I'm guilty as charged of seeing Billy ''as the face''. If given the option, I will absolutely choose the both of them, but having to choose just one often makes me go towards Billy for some reason. I feel like this happened in the previous Young Avengers Appreciation Thread, in which we had a poll for the favorite character. Billy was winning it and Teddy had a surprisingly low number of votes in comparison. I don't think this happened because he's unpopular, but rather because a lot of people felt torn about choosing between one of them and Teddy just got the short end of the stick because Billy is just the kind of character that stands out.

Thanks for giving your takeaway to my post's thoughts.

Now then, I personally feel that Teddy is also the kind of character who can stand out. He's proven that whenever he is given focus on (one of the reasons I loved New Avengers). I know this particular thought has been contested before, but I'm also among those who feel that writer bias may have played into this idea that Billy "naturally" stands out more, with the side-effect of Teddy feeling more like Billy's satellite. When a writer is more even with the two, like Al Ewing was, we get to see how awesome and standout Teddy is and can be, too.

With that in mind, and again, it does make me feel bad for Teddy whenever that seems to happen.

Also, and this goes into super speculative territory on my part, but I somewhat have gotten the feeling that, for some fans of the duo, at least, they may identify with Billy more due to his specific characteristics and backstory. For those fans, I presume that Billy works better as the approximate reflection of themselves, with the stuff that Billy has and has to go through, especially Billy near his inception as a character back when. Just like with about any fictional character, especially in genres like the comics world, where some form of seeing one's self in the fictional characters is encouraged in their development, perhaps part of the reason Billy is defaulted to is because of this. In turn, Teddy, who is just as "real-life in a fictional realm" as Billy, may be more the character who the reader aspires to become as opposed who they more readily seem themselves in; or perhaps Teddy's the "wish fulfillment partner"/"best boyfriend material ever" some readers would love to have, subsequently placing and seeing themselves as the Billy between the two.

Again, the above is super speculation on my part. And it is very likely I conveyed my point rather poorly, so my apologies for that if so.

It still make me feel bad for Teddy, though. Because in this case, even if writer sway can help cement one tendency over another, it would be the reader who has full control of it, so Billy would generally forever be seen as the "face" of the duo, and Teddy Billy's plus one.

I think this might have something to do with the audience following Jeremy Whitley's Twitter. He is known for his work with young female characters and is currently writing Wasp, so I guess a lot of people who follow him would lean towards Cassie. Just a guess. Anyway, I'm pissed she won, not because I hate her or anything, but because she was the one character from the poll we already knew was showing up on Whitley's book, so what's the point? Billy, Tommy and Teddy were the ones who actually needed the spotlight. I hope Whitley just have all of them guest in his book anyway.

Ah, perhaps so. The audience he has already would be acclimated to what he's known for, which in turn would explain why so many gravitated towards the poll result they did.

And while I am in no way angry about how many seem to want to see Cassie under this writer's pen, I, in a similar vein, cannot help but be disappointed that more are in favor of Cassie over the other 3 options, all of whom haven't had the presence that even she has had in recent times and will have in the future. I would have preferred Teddy, Tommy, or Billy, honestly. I'm always for more Teddy focus, and Tommy needs page-time more than Lisa needed them braces.

Granted, this may, and mostly likely, in my opinion, have simply been a general feedback poll. He (and perhaps others) is trying to figure out and gauge interest in any and all of those characters from among his twitter follower-base and its peripherals.

Considering lead-time, he couldn't just plop the winner in the next bunch of issues or anything, anyway. Plus, like it's been said, Cassie's already slated to appear.

[Drops Of Venus]

Thanks for giving your takeaway to my post's thoughts.

Now then, I personally feel that Teddy is also the kind of character who can stand out. He's proven that whenever he is given focus on (one of the reasons I loved New Avengers). I know this particular thought has been contested before, but I'm also among those who feel that writer bias may have played into this idea that Billy "naturally" stands out more, with the side-effect of Teddy feeling more like Billy's satellite. When a writer is more even with the two, like Al Ewing was, we get to see how awesome and standout Teddy is and can be, too.

With that in mind, and again, it does make me feel bad for Teddy whenever that seems to happen.

Oh, I definitely think Teddy can stand out in a story as well. What I meant was that from the fans' perspective, Billy seems to be the one who stands out the most, and this is evidenced by those poll results. Now, what exactly makes people feel that way? Who knows, it could be a different reason for each person, but I do think you have an interesting point of view here:

Also, and this goes into super speculative territory on my part, but I somewhat have gotten the feeling that, for some fans of the duo, at least, they may identify with Billy more due to his specific characteristics and backstory. For those fans, I presume that Billy works better as the approximate reflection of themselves, with the stuff that Billy has and has to go through, especially Billy near his inception as a character back when. Just like with about any fictional character, especially in genres like the comics world, where some form of seeing one's self in the fictional characters is encouraged in their development, perhaps part of the reason Billy is defaulted to is because of this. In turn, Teddy, who is just as "real-life in a fictional realm" as Billy, may be more the character who the reader aspires to become as opposed who they more readily seem themselves in; or perhaps Teddy's the "wish fulfillment partner"/"best boyfriend material ever" some readers would love to have, subsequently placing and seeing themselves as the Billy between the two.

Again, the above is super speculation on my part. And it is very likely I conveyed my point rather poorly, so my apologies for that if so.

It still make me feel bad for Teddy, though. Because in this case, even if writer sway can help cement one tendency over another, it would be the reader who has full control of it, so Billy would generally forever be seen as the "face" of the duo, and Teddy Billy's plus one.

I think you're spot on. Not saying this is the case for everyone, of course, but I do think that a lot of fans (specially people from the LGBTQ community) have that mindset when they read Wiccan and Hulkling, including myself sometimes. Honestly, I would not be surprised if Allan Heinberg himself had that mindset when he created those characters. It does seem to me that Billy was a reflection of Allan's own experiences growing up as a gay jewish person, and Teddy was the boyfriend that he never had (or maybe the boyfriend he had, I don't know his life). That would explain why some people feel naturally more drawn to Billy than Teddy as characters. I don't think it's a bad thing per se, as everyone is allowed to relate to whatever they relate the most in a story, but yeah, it does make me feel bad for Teddy, even if I acknowledge that I am part of the problem.

[Snoop Dogg]

Cassie is just an absolute unit.

[Digifiend]

Fan Q: Asking about Young Avengers?

C.B.: It's definitely going to be fans of Young Avengers, but I can't confirm or deny Allan Heinberg or Jim Cheung's involvement.

https://www.newsarama.com/44404-c2e2...-cebulski.html

[Snoop Dogg]

Give it to Whitley, demons!

[J. D. Guy]

Oh, I definitely think Teddy can stand out in a story as well. What I meant was that from the fans' perspective, Billy seems to be the one who stands out the most, and this is evidenced by those poll results. Now, what exactly makes people feel that way? Who knows, it could be a different reason for each person, but I do think you have an interesting point of view here:



I think you're spot on. Not saying this is the case for everyone, of course, but I do think that a lot of fans (specially people from the LGBTQ community) have that mindset when they read Wiccan and Hulkling, including myself sometimes. Honestly, I would not be surprised if Allan Heinberg himself had that mindset when he created those characters. It does seem to me that Billy was a reflection of Allan's own experiences growing up as a gay jewish person, and Teddy was the boyfriend that he never had (or maybe the boyfriend he had, I don't know his life). That would explain why some people feel naturally more drawn to Billy than Teddy as characters. I don't think it's a bad thing per se, as everyone is allowed to relate to whatever they relate the most in a story, but yeah, it does make me feel bad for Teddy, even if I acknowledge that I am part of the problem.

And the thing of it is, it technically isn't even a problem. That is to say, it's innocent and natural enough to potentially do that. But, it comes at the consequence of one character being more "live" and focused/dwelt on than the other. And depending on the circumstances, that is when a problem could potentially develop.

(Poor Teddy. )

[Magnito]

Oh, I definitely think Teddy can stand out in a story as well. What I meant was that from the fans' perspective, Billy seems to be the one who stands out the most, and this is evidenced by those poll results. Now, what exactly makes people feel that way? Who knows, it could be a different reason for each person, but I do think you have an interesting point of view here:



I think you're spot on. Not saying this is the case for everyone, of course, but I do think that a lot of fans (specially people from the LGBTQ community) have that mindset when they read Wiccan and Hulkling, including myself sometimes. Honestly, I would not be surprised if Allan Heinberg himself had that mindset when he created those characters. It does seem to me that Billy was a reflection of Allan's own experiences growing up as a gay jewish person, and Teddy was the boyfriend that he never had (or maybe the boyfriend he had, I don't know his life). That would explain why some people feel naturally more drawn to Billy than Teddy as characters. I don't think it's a bad thing per se, as everyone is allowed to relate to whatever they relate the most in a story, but yeah, it does make me feel bad for Teddy, even if I acknowledge that I am part of the problem.

Also, Billy is scrawny, awkward, thin, geeky and a target for bullies. Teddy may be a geek as well, but he's an alien prince who looks like a model.

I'm guessing most fans look and feel more like Billy than Teddy. He's easier to identify with.

(yes, I know Teddy has insecurities in his back story too, but it seems to define him less)

[Drops Of Venus]

Fan Q: Asking about Young Avengers?

C.B.: It's definitely going to be fans of Young Avengers, but I can't confirm or deny Allan Heinberg or Jim Cheung's involvement.

https://www.newsarama.com/44404-c2e2...-cebulski.html

That answer is weird. ''It's definitely going to be fans of Young Avengers''? What exactly was the question? Anyway, it seems more or less like a second confirmation we are indeed seeing the team again. I'm on the edge of my seat here waiting for an official announcement.

Also, Billy is scrawny, awkward, thin, geeky and a target for bullies. Teddy may be a geek as well, but he's an alien prince who looks like a model.

I'm guessing most fans look and feel more like Billy than Teddy. He's easier to identify with.

(yes, I know Teddy has insecurities in his back story too, but it seems to define him less)

Yeah, Billy has that teenage Peter Parker quality to him that makes him very relatable to the average person. There's also the fact that we've seen Billy struggling with some deep psychological/emotional issues, and that is something that strongly humanizes him and makes the audience feel more sympathetic towards him. I've said this before, but it was such a missed opportunity to not explore more of Teddy's body issues from his origin story. I feel like there isn't enough representation of that topic with men to begin with, and it could've been an incredibly powerful storyline to show just how much he struggled (and might still struggle) to look the way he thinks society expects him to. I hope someone still gets to tell that story, 'cause I think it could really shine a new light on Teddy and make people see him in a less idealistic way.

[Sutekh]

Yeah, Billy has that teenage Peter Parker quality to him that makes him very relatable to the average person. There's also the fact that we've seen Billy struggling with some deep psychological/emotional issues, and that is something that strongly humanizes him and makes the audience feel more sympathetic towards him. I've said this before, but it was such a missed opportunity to not explore more of Teddy's body issues from his origin story. I feel like there isn't enough representation of that topic with men to begin with, and it could've been an incredibly powerful storyline to show just how much he struggled (and might still struggle) to look the way he thinks society expects him to. I hope someone still gets to tell that story, 'cause I think it could really shine a new light on Teddy and make people see him in a less idealistic way.

The differences between the two and their respective dramas is striking, and not, IMO, terribly flattering to Billy. He gets the lion's share of the focus, and has both an adoptive 'spiritual family' in Wanda, and a real family in the Kaplans, and a destiny that may well include someday becoming Demiurge and / or Sorcerer Supreme. Teddy is his arm-candy, watching his only parent figure die in front of him, amd has a destiny as 'space prince' that he has more or less abandoned to hang out with Billy on Earth. I sometimes feel like the young man is a volcano, and avoiding all of his issues (and potential) to focus entirely on Billy's dreams and goals and life, which is hardly unrealistic or anything (women married to powerful men do it all the time, pretty much sacrificing their own lives to puff up and support their husbands careers and ambitions), but kind of tragic, and quite possibly headed for an explosion of some sort, when his neglected potential / responsibilities / ambitions come around and bite them both.

It feels like the story could be told that Teddy isn't being neglected by the writers, but tweaked so that he's actively avoiding the focus, because he doesn't want to confront this 'Skrull prince' or 'King of Space' or 'Last son of Mar-Vell' business, he just wants to be a young hero in love.

[Digifiend]

That answer is weird. ''It's definitely going to be fans of Young Avengers''? What exactly was the question? Anyway, it seems more or less like a second confirmation we are indeed seeing the team again. I'm on the edge of my seat here waiting for an official announcement.

Yeah, I get the feeling that both the question and answer are incomplete, not noted down properly by the person running the live newsfeed from the event.

[scourge]

I think part of people considering Billy and Teddy a package deal...at least for some fans...is not wanting Marvel to do something stupid like break them up and wreck a stable, fan-favorite relationship like that. Don't want to risk one vanishing into limbo or getting killed off just because they broke up something like that.

[Snoop Dogg]

Hey, gamers! Ya like Bill and Ted?! Well uh, CHECK OUT DEATH'S HEAD STOOOOOPID!





https://twitter.com/AgentM/status/1109870438354767872

[Digifiend]

Looks like YA isn't happening... it turned out Wiccan and Hulkling are starring in a DEATH'S HEAD book!?!
https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/03...iccan-hulking/

... oh, I see I've been ninja'd.