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  1. #226
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    So, since Selina's background has been a bit variable over the years, I thought I'd ask what versions people like or what versions do they wish we could have had? Or could have in future?

    She's been low brow and higher class. A non-killer and a murderer of the innocent. Various versions of her first meeting Batman. And so forth and so on.

    I prefer her with low or middle class origins to being raised high class. I much prefer the non-killer version her (that's a general guideline, not a Batman-style rule with her for me).

    I do not like Batman: Year One. I do not like her being inspired or rescued by Batman. I don't want him to make her or save her then. It completely throws things off because he has all this prominence and importance in her life that she doesn't have in his.

    I'm fine with her being prostitute for a couple years, though not at all attached to the idea. If she is a prostitute, she should not be under 15 (not young enough to likely be referred to as a "child prostitute" and not a sex slave) and should not be a dominatrix and should not serve the high-class set. Just be ordinary, I guess. But she'll learn a skillset that will provider her more money, more challenges, and more fun, and become a thief before the age of 20. She never crosses paths with Batman or Bruce until a robbery, as it was in the golden age initial meeting. They should also be within 4 years of each other's age.

    There is nothing about Magdalene's story that I can think of that I like, and I'd erase her existence.

    I do like the idea of Selina reforming and then becoming a hero as she did in the bronze age, but once she does, she should stay reformed. Nothing should actually happen between her and Bruce until she does. Though flirting or innuendo before that is entirely acceptable and expected. There are other things later, too, but I want to concentrate on a solid origin story here.

    EDIT: I don't know much about her new origin. I know some files were erased. Did she ever learn anything on that front? Is it still in continuity after Rebirth?
    What's wrong with dominatrix

    Are you talking about the New 52 one where she found an erased file on her while working? I think that one just got completely ignored.

    The official New 52 Catwoman back story they used starting Batman Eternal was that she's the child and heir of mob boss Rex Calabrese that predates Roman Falcone. She didn't know this and only found out after she received his letter during Eternal. That's how she became a mob boss in the later stories.

    That said, those two backstories don't exactly contradict each other except that Selina was Russian descent in the earlier version and Italian in the latter.

    In Rebirth she was raised in a foster home, but that's all I know.

    As a child, I prefer the Cat Queen of Crime because Catwoman having pet tigers was hardcore. It took me a while to warm up to the fact that she doesn't have henchmen and secret lairs in the modern iteration. This is why I like the mob boss version because it reminds me of the crime queen of my childhood.

    What did warm me up to the solitary cat burglar version was the fact that the whole wild, feral and free aspect of that version is very cat-like. It fits what I think Catwoman's personality should be.

    The back story doesn't matter that much for me. The reason I don't like the prostitute version is that whenever some men want to make things Noir, they always make the villainess a prostitute no matter what they're usually defined. Selina by Miller and Harley by Azzarello.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 07-16-2019 at 10:05 PM.

  2. #227
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    The back story doesn't matter that much for me. The reason I don't like the prostitute version is that whenever some men want to make things Noir, they always make the villainess a prostitute no matter what they're usually defined. Selina by Miller and Harley by Azzarello.
    Very much agreed. In a way, making Catwoman a former prostitute sort of goes against what I think the character is about: a woman in control of her own sexuality, and when she uses it it is for her own ends. When she seduces someone, it's not to make a living, but to accomplish something for herself.

    ETA: It also reinforces the pattern of thought that Catwoman (or many other villainesses) are only about sex and "teh sexy".
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    What's wrong with dominatrix

    Are you talking about the New 52 one where she found an erased file on her while working? I think that one just got completely ignored.

    The official New 52 Catwoman back story they used starting Batman Eternal was that she's the child and heir of mob boss Rex Calabrese that predates Roman Falcone. She didn't know this and only found out after she received his letter during Eternal. That's how she became a mob boss in the later stories.

    That said, those two backstories don't exactly contradict each other except that Selina was Russian descent in the earlier version and Italian in the latter.

    In Rebirth she was raised in a foster home, but that's all I know.

    As a child, I prefer the Cat Queen of Crime because Catwoman having pet tigers was hardcore. It took me a while to warm up to the fact that she doesn't have henchmen and secret lairs in the modern iteration. This is why I like the mob boss version because it reminds me of the crime queen of my childhood.

    What did warm me up to the solitary cat burglar version was the fact that the whole wild, feral and free aspect of that version is very cat-like. It fits what I think Catwoman's personality should be.

    The back story doesn't matter that much for me. The reason I don't like the prostitute version is that whenever some men want to make things Noir, they always make the villainess a prostitute no matter what they're usually defined. Selina by Miller and Harley by Azzarello.
    I thought Azzarello made Harley a stripper not a prostitute.

  4. #229
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    What's wrong with dominatrix
    It find it to be trying too hard to be "extreme."

    Very much agreed. In a way, making Catwoman a former prostitute sort of goes against what I think the character is about: a woman in control of her own sexuality, and when she uses it it is for her own ends. When she seduces someone, it's not to make a living, but to accomplish something for herself.
    If she's working independently (not for a pimp) then being a prostitute is her controlling her sexuality and using it for her own ends. I actually dislike hyper sexual or seductress Selina. Not Catwoman in costume, exactly (though I do think it's been overplayed since she went skintight), but Selina. I don't care for her sleeping with people for her cons (disguises and cunning and flat out burglary work for me better) because it's kind of "lazy" to me. I like her keeping sex for enjoyment rather than manipulation in the present day. Previously, it was also business - one that she didn't have any particular emotion about. It didn't make her feel dirty, and didn't taint future relationships/sexual interactions. It just wasn't a good long-term career move.

    I don't find Catwoman to particularly be about "in control of her sexuality" more than most other women in the DCU. Aside from the fact that she is viewed as very sexy by others (which can be said for many female characters), I don't find her approach to sexual relationships/interactions to be paramount to the character. At least, not when she's written as I most enjoy. Yes, she is in control of her sexuality (if you mean sexual interactions), but then so are Iris West, Diana, Starfire, etc. I also consider prostitution to be completely separate from fun sex.

    ETA: It also reinforces the pattern of thought that Catwoman (or many other villainesses) are only about sex and "teh sexy".
    True, to a degree. Actually Harley is one I think worked much better when not so sexualized. And Selina is more so later (starting with 60s Catwoman?) than she was initially. I notice it more in comics starting in the 1980s. It's baked into Ivy's early appearances. But I find seducing men/women to manipulate or achieve her ends far more "about teh sexy" than a business arrangement back when she didn't have any real skills.

    Establishing first that I like a redeemed Selina who ends up with Bruce: I also dislike the notion that prostitution is morally "worse" than thievery (it's an honest business deal and not cheating or taking from another) or that willing prostitutes (not coerced or sold into it) don't deserve happily ever afters. I cannot tell you the number of books I've read where former thieves become heroes and save the day and marry good men/women (attractive, respectable, sometimes wealthy), but I've never read one where an un-coerced prostitute does the same.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 07-17-2019 at 04:28 AM.

  5. #230
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I thought Azzarello made Harley a stripper not a prostitute.
    Yeah. Stripper. The point is adding sexualization where it's not what the character's known for. Both Selina and Harley are objectively sexy but they're psychiatrist, clown, thief or crime queen.

  6. #231
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I cannot tell you the number of books I've read where former thieves become heroes and save the day and marry good men/women (attractive, respectable, sometimes wealthy), but I've never read one where an un-coerced prostitute does the same.
    Francesca De Chevreuse, an important secondary character in the Heirs of Alexandria series by Mercedes Lackey, Eric Flint, and Dave Freer.

    But yes, they're not easy to find.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

  7. #232
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    by Otto Schmidt

  8. #233
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post


    by Otto Schmidt
    Hot biker Selina! I love it .

    Definitely going commando there .

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    So, since Selina's background has been a bit variable over the years, I thought I'd ask what versions people like or what versions do they wish we could have had? Or could have in future?

    She's been low brow and higher class. A non-killer and a murderer of the innocent. Various versions of her first meeting Batman. And so forth and so on.

    I prefer her with low or middle class origins to being raised high class. I much prefer the non-killer version her (that's a general guideline, not a Batman-style rule with her for me).

    I do not like Batman: Year One. I do not like her being inspired or rescued by Batman. I don't want him to make her or save her then. It completely throws things off because he has all this prominence and importance in her life that she doesn't have in his.

    I'm fine with her being prostitute for a couple years, though not at all attached to the idea. If she is a prostitute, she should not be under 15 (not young enough to likely be referred to as a "child prostitute" and not a sex slave) and should not be a dominatrix and should not serve the high-class set. Just be ordinary, I guess. But she'll learn a skillset that will provider her more money, more challenges, and more fun, and become a thief before the age of 20. She never crosses paths with Batman or Bruce until a robbery, as it was in the golden age initial meeting. They should also be within 4 years of each other's age.

    There is nothing about Magdalene's story that I can think of that I like, and I'd erase her existence.

    I do like the idea of Selina reforming and then becoming a hero as she did in the bronze age, but once she does, she should stay reformed. Nothing should actually happen between her and Bruce until she does. Though flirting or innuendo before that is entirely acceptable and expected. There are other things later, too, but I want to concentrate on a solid origin story here.

    EDIT: I don't know much about her new origin. I know some files were erased. Did she ever learn anything on that front? Is it still in continuity after Rebirth?


    Which comic issues show her to be murderer of the innocent?
    That's very interesting.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
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  10. #235
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Which comic issues show her to be murderer of the innocent?
    That's very interesting.
    I may be misremembering, but I recall her killing hotel security guards to frame someone else for their murder (because he murdered Holly - out of continuity now, of course). Action comics 614. I mean, I guess they were corrupt (trying to get bribes), but I don't know that she knew that, and that's not an offense worth killing over, anyway. Though I did read the issue without reading anything that happened before (I was there for the Dick & Roy story about Lian), so maybe they were guilty of other things.

    Earlier post-COIE Catwoman was more prone to violence than the versions I most prefer. Really, that may happen every time she gets her own series (because they want it darker or grittier?), I don't know. It's just her mini and that issue in this era make me think of it.

    Link to a brief synopsis
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-02-2019 at 02:16 PM.

  11. #236
    Spectacular Member Huntsman1117's Avatar
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    Catwoman's origin is more befuddled and confusing than ever now that parts of both the Golden Age and the Modern age origins are considered cannon in Tom King's Batman & Joelle Jones's Catwoman series. That's not to say it's a problem, it's just confusing, yet interesting. Batman says they met on the boat from Batman #1 1940. Catwoman says they first met on the street from Batman Year One. My question is, at what point in her life as Catwoman (The Cat) did Batman catch her robbing the boat? I assume it was after she put on the grey costume from Year One...

  12. #237
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman1117 View Post
    Catwoman's origin is more befuddled and confusing than ever now that parts of both the Golden Age and the Modern age origins are considered cannon in Tom King's Batman & Joelle Jones's Catwoman series. That's not to say it's a problem, it's just confusing, yet interesting. Batman says they met on the boat from Batman #1 1940. Catwoman says they first met on the street from Batman Year One. My question is, at what point in her life as Catwoman (The Cat) did Batman catch her robbing the boat? I assume it was after she put on the grey costume from Year One...
    Not to mention there's also her not knowing Bruce's identity during New 52, and then always knowing in Rebirth. While the boat/street thing has always been a motif in the series (and looks to be getting some kind of answer in an upcoming issue), the identity thing seems like its just gonna be swept under the rug and ignored.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  13. #238
    Spectacular Member Huntsman1117's Avatar
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    Yes because The New 52 continuity has been obliterated & nullified, as sort of explained in Doomsday Clock. Now I suppose we have to assume that Bruce revealing his identity to Selina in the events of Hush is now canon, even if not everything in Hush is canon (ex, Catwoman babysitting Talia in Hush, Catwoman kidnapping Lois Lane in Hush vs Catwoman recently meeting these two ladies in Tom King's Batman).

  14. #239
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman1117 View Post
    Yes because The New 52 continuity has been obliterated & nullified, as sort of explained in Doomsday Clock. Now I suppose we have to assume that Bruce revealing his identity to Selina in the events of Hush is now canon, even if not everything in Hush is canon (ex, Catwoman babysitting Talia in Hush, Catwoman kidnapping Lois Lane in Hush vs Catwoman recently meeting these two ladies in Tom King's Batman).
    Rebirth Catwoman knows very early on, while she's still wearing her Year One costume and I think before Robin, but after the boat and the street.

  15. #240
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    I posit that Catwoman and Batman exist in a quantum state, where exact knowledge their shared history precludes exact knowledge of their current relation and vice versa.

    See also Schrödinger's Catwoman, where Catwoman simultaneously exist in one of three states: alive, dead, and stealing the rare radioactive isotopes used for the experiment.
    «Speaking generally, it is because of the desire of the tragic poets for the marvellous that so varied and inconsistent an account of Medea has been given out» (Diodorus Siculus, The Library of History [4.56.1])

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