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  1. #181
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    . . . She asks him for help in Tieri's run, and here Bruce was STILL suffering from amnesia. Selina, despite having history with Bruce and having met him not too long ago, seemingly forgot this after Valentine's run (just talk it up to Tieri). She still, though, showed no sign that she knew he was Batman.
    But . . . why would she seek help from merely Bruce Wayne if she didn't know he was Batman?

    When she had said "Time I finally reached out . . . to him," and then tells Bruce "I'm sorry I haven't contacted you sooner. But the mess I'm in . . . I guess I just wanted to get out it myself. I didn't want you to swoop in and save the day.
    But now . . . this has gotten out of hand."
    Why would she expect Bruce Wayne to suddenly "swoop in" to this mess with the Penguin, "Mr. Blonde", etc. unless she already knew Bruce was Batman?

    It really doesn't make sense unless she knew Bruce was Batman (though, unfortunately, Bruce at that time didn't know he had been Batman).

  2. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    But . . . why would she seek help from merely Bruce Wayne if she didn't know he was Batman?

    When she had said "Time I finally reached out . . . to him," and then tells Bruce "I'm sorry I haven't contacted you sooner. But the mess I'm in . . . I guess I just wanted to get out it myself. I didn't want you to swoop in and save the day.
    But now . . . this has gotten out of hand."
    Why would she expect Bruce Wayne to suddenly "swoop in" to this mess with the Penguin, "Mr. Blonde", etc. unless she already knew Bruce was Batman?

    It really doesn't make sense unless she knew Bruce was Batman (though, unfortunately, Bruce at that time didn't know he had been Batman).
    Because he's rich, resourceful, and he likes her. The problem in the story involved a huge list of dirty laundry on the rich and powerful (a-la Bruce), so I suppose that's the connection. And she never once says "Batman" when referring to Bruce.

    You're looking for an in-universe explanation, when the real culprit is poor writing. It's a better alternative to the idea that she non-chalantly figured out Bruce was Batman off-page during a time when Bruce was an amnesiac and not even he himself knew he was Batman.

  3. #183
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TravelerInTheDark View Post
    Because he's rich, resourceful, and he likes her. The problem in the story involved a huge list of dirty laundry on the rich and powerful (a-la Bruce), so I suppose that's the connection. And she never once says "Batman" when referring to Bruce.

    You're looking for an in-universe explanation, when the real culprit is poor writing. It's a better alternative to the idea that she non-chalantly figured out Bruce was Batman off-page during a time when Bruce was an amnesiac and not even he himself knew he was Batman.
    And besides, even if that was the case, Rebirth establishes that not only did Selina find out herself right from the beginning, but Batman knew this too, so her knowing at that point wouldn't really matter. And from what I've seen, right after that scene she doesn't really hint towards Bruce being Batman anyway, so it probably was just purposefully on the nose dialogue for the audiences sake, but not for hers.

    Like you mentioned, the answer will probably be just simply "Rebirth changed the timeline so now they remember different things", though I would be really interested to see if they choose to pay this off somehow narratively.
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  4. #184
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    And besides, even if that was the case, Rebirth establishes that not only did Selina find out herself right from the beginning, but Batman knew this too, so her knowing at that point wouldn't really matter. And from what I've seen, right after that scene she doesn't really hint towards Bruce being Batman anyway, so it probably was just purposefully on the nose dialogue for the audiences sake, but not for hers.
    Which is kind of interesting since, for all of Rebirth's talk about going back to old continuity and them bringing back old continuity (boat/street thing for instance) that's an entirely new approach to their relationship (outside, I guess, the Telltale games).

    Post-Crisis Selina didn't know Batman was Bruce Wayne until Hush. I don't think she ever knew Pre-Crisis outside of Earth-2.

  5. #185
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Which is kind of interesting since, for all of Rebirth's talk about going back to old continuity and them bringing back old continuity (boat/street thing for instance) that's an entirely new approach to their relationship (outside, I guess, the Telltale games).

    Post-Crisis Selina didn't know Batman was Bruce Wayne until Hush. I don't think she ever knew Pre-Crisis outside of Earth-2.
    Yeah you're right, that's why I'm really interested to see if that may pay off, because you have all of the pre- and post-Crisis references to their histories, but now with the one new, and fairly major, change, which would obviously completely change everything.

    I do think adding that connection and using it in tandem with all the other references, is a big reason, at least to me personally, what makes their relationship so compelling in this story, since so many previous portrayals I just see as moreso a flirtation and attraction but never any true feelings, with this being the first time I've seen it as more than that.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  6. #186
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Yeah you're right, that's why I'm really interested to see if that may pay off, because you have all of the pre- and post-Crisis references to their histories, but now with the one new, and fairly major, change, which would obviously completely change everything.

    I do think adding that connection and using it in tandem with all the other references, is a big reason, at least to me personally, what makes their relationship so compelling in this story, since so many previous portrayals I just see as moreso a flirtation and attraction but never any true feelings, with this being the first time I've seen it as more than that.
    As far as "true feelings," I would say Batman and Catwoman were very serious during the Pre-Crisis Gerry Conway run, the Ed Brubaker Catwoman era, Hush, and Paul Dini's Batman work (Heart of Hush, Gotham City Sirens).

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Which is kind of interesting since, for all of Rebirth's talk about going back to old continuity and them bringing back old continuity (boat/street thing for instance) that's an entirely new approach to their relationship (outside, I guess, the Telltale games).

    Post-Crisis Selina didn't know Batman was Bruce Wayne until Hush. I don't think she ever knew Pre-Crisis outside of Earth-2.

    Selina knew Bruce Wayne was Batman in Pre-Crisis outside of Earth-2.

    Before reformed Selina was turned back into a villian with a mind machine by the Joker, she even called Batman "Bruce" when she was talking about being his crime fighting partner. Jason/Robin was with him at the time.

    Selina also was taking her anger out on Batman because he moved on with Vicki Vale. She called him "Bruce" when she was worried that she hurt him badly. They were kneeling and hugging each other, and she was in tears. He apologized for hurting her.
    She had ran Bruce and Vicki Vale off the road before they fought.

    Not longer after that, it was like she never knew his identity
    but right before Crisis, she definitely knew Bruce and Bruce were one and the same.
    Last edited by Starrius; 04-23-2019 at 05:27 AM.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't think she ever knew Pre-Crisis outside of Earth-2.
    What Starrius said. She definitely did know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I do think adding that connection and using it in tandem with all the other references, is a big reason, at least to me personally, what makes their relationship so compelling in this story, since so many previous portrayals I just see as moreso a flirtation and attraction but never any true feelings, with this being the first time I've seen it as more than that.
    That's baloney. Bruce and Selina have been in love through many eras
    Last edited by Miles To Go; 04-22-2019 at 05:13 AM.

  9. #189
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    Selina knew Bruce Wayne was Batman in Pre-Crisis outside of Earth-2.

    Before reformed Selina was turned back into a villian with a mind machine by the Joker, she even called Batman "Bruce" when she was talking about being his crime fighting partner. Jason/Robin was with him at the time.

    Selina also was taking her anger out on Batman because he moved on with Vicki Vale. She called him "Bruce" when she was worried that she hurt him badly. They we kneeling and hugging each other, and she was in tears. He apologized for hurting her.
    She had ran Bruce and Vicki Vale off the road before they fought.

    Not longer after that, it was like she never knew his identity
    but right before Crisis, she definitely knew Bruce and Bruce were one and the same.
    I was under the impression that she had a dual-relationship thing going on with Bruce and Batman, rather then knowing they were one and the same, but I see I might be mistaken on that...

  10. #190
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    That's baloney. Bruce and Selina have been in love through many eras
    I know that obviously there have been many eras and stories that have shown them in love, I was just referring to my own experiences with what I've read and seen. I'm not as familiar with every big interaction, mostly just a couple of the big post-Crisis stuff, New 52 and Rebirth, and then movie, TV, and game adaptations, and alot of the time it just seems to me its portrayed more as just a flirtation and attraction rather than anything more. Hush and the current run are the first times I've felt their connection as being "something more", though there probably are a bunch of others that do it too that I'm missing.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  11. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I know that obviously there have been many eras and stories that have shown them in love, I was just referring to my own experiences with what I've read and seen. I'm not as familiar with every big interaction, mostly just a couple of the big post-Crisis stuff, New 52 and Rebirth, and then movie, TV, and game adaptations, and alot of the time it just seems to me its portrayed more as just a flirtation and attraction rather than anything more. Hush and the current run are the first times I've felt their connection as being "something more", though there probably are a bunch of others that do it too that I'm missing.

    but as Frontier pointed out:
    Batman and Catwoman were very serious during the Pre-Crisis Gerry Conway run, the Ed Brubaker Catwoman era, Hush, and Paul Dini's Batman work (Heart of Hush, Gotham City Sirens)

    In the last issue of the first Catwoman comic series, Catwoman propositions Batman to leave Gotham with her to get to know each other without the masks.


    In the Silver Age, Catwoman had returned wearing the Green costume. She was jealous of Barbara Gordon/Batgirl.

    Detective Comics #369 - The end of the issue shows Selina reading the paper about the new Bat-Girl.

    She says "She has her nerve trying to cut herself in on my man. I've known Batman a lot longer than that Jill-come-lately. If he belongs to anybody, he belongs to Catwoman."

    Batman #197 - Selina/Catwoman puts on a green costume for the first time. She competes with Batgirl for Batman's love by being a crimefighter too, making Batgirl look bad. She wants Batman to marry her and she even sets a trap for him and wants to get him to marry her.
    Batman says that Catwoman loves her. Robin responded by saying that everybody knew that except him.
    Batgirl told Catwoman that she wasn't even romantically interested in Batman. Catwoman was jealous and competed with Batgirl for nothing.


    Batman #256 - Bruce looks at pictures of Catwoman/Selina and Talia in Batcave, and he says "Whenever I meet a woman that I care for, she's an enemy and that's my curse"


    The first time that Catwoman was shown to have romantic feelings for Batman:

    Batman #3 - Catwoman kisses Batman and then pushes him to get away.

    Well...the issue ended with her driving, wishing that Batman was driving and she was sitting beside him just as another boy and girl out for a ride on a moonlit night and that it would be sort of nice.


    The truth is Selina/Catwoman was in love with Batman since the first Batman comics in 1940.

    Bob Kane made her to be a complicated love interest of Batman in that she was not only his enemy but also his would-be lover who tempted him not just out of mind games but of actual romantic feelings for him.

    This didn't even change when she was brought back after years of hiatus. Heck...even Batman acknowledged that Catwoman loved her by 1967, and it was stated that Robin and everybody else knew. It was just that Batman was too blind to see because of his own conflicted romantic feelings for Catwoman.
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman1117 View Post
    Excuse me, I guess I should have said light purple or pink-purple Attachment 79790
    a better description would be lilac
    definitely not pink which is much different color
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  13. #193
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    Some pages from Under The Moon

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...fcbd-spoilers/

    I still want a Gotham High series with more scenes like this

  14. #194
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starrius View Post
    but as Frontier pointed out:
    Batman and Catwoman were very serious during the Pre-Crisis Gerry Conway run, the Ed Brubaker Catwoman era, Hush, and Paul Dini's Batman work (Heart of Hush, Gotham City Sirens)

    In the last issue of the first Catwoman comic series, Catwoman propositions Batman to leave Gotham with her to get to know each other without the masks.


    In the Silver Age, Catwoman had returned wearing the Green costume. She was jealous of Barbara Gordon/Batgirl.

    Detective Comics #369 - The end of the issue shows Selina reading the paper about the new Bat-Girl.

    She says "She has her nerve trying to cut herself in on my man. I've known Batman a lot longer than that Jill-come-lately. If he belongs to anybody, he belongs to Catwoman."

    Batman #197 - Selina/Catwoman puts on a green costume for the first time. She competes with Batgirl for Batman's love by being a crimefighter too, making Batgirl look bad. She wants Batman to marry her and she even sets a trap for him and wants to get him to marry her.
    Batman says that Catwoman loves her. Robin responded by saying that everybody knew that except him.
    Batgirl told Catwoman that she wasn't even romantically interested in Batman. Catwoman was jealous and competed with Batgirl for nothing.


    Batman #256 - Bruce looks at pictures of Catwoman/Selina and Talia in Batcave, and he says "Whenever I meet a woman that I care for, she's an enemy and that's my curse"


    The first time that Catwoman was shown to have romantic feelings for Batman:

    Batman #3 - Catwoman kisses Batman and then pushes him to get away.

    Well...the issue ended with her driving, wishing that Batman was driving and she was sitting beside him just as another boy and girl out for a ride on a moonlit night and that it would be sort of nice.


    The truth is Selina/Catwoman was in love with Batman since the first Batman comics in 1940.

    Bob Kane made her to be a complicated love interest of Batman in that she was not only his enemy but also his would-be lover who tempted him not just out of mind games but of actual romantic feelings for him.

    This didn't even change when she was brought back after years of hiatus. Heck...even Batman acknowledged that Catwoman loved her by 1967, and it was stated that Robin and everybody else knew. It was just that Batman was too blind to see because of his own conflicted romantic feelings for Catwoman.
    If I were to word my feelings better, I think what I mean is I wish there would more stories that would show WHY exactly they love each other. Just because, at least from my perspective, alot of instances have them talk about how much they love each other, but without really going into what connection made them feel this way, which is why to me alot of these times come off as just a sexual attraction over deeper feelings.

    Like you also said, those stories do exist, I'm just not as personally familiar with most of those older ones, and I prefer those kinds of interactions, over the much more vague attractions.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  15. #195
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Does Selina not have a middle name?

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