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  1. #241
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, continuity as inconsistent as it is, they could just say Hush was where she learned his identity but that doesn't seem to be King's taken on it (where Selina apparently knew almost from day one).

    Although I've often felt King's comprehensive approach to the relationship has also been at odds with how he writes the relationship at times. Like, would they really go from their dynamic in the annual to all those flashbacks where they're more antagonistic and she's much more openly a villain?

  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, continuity as inconsistent as it is, they could just say Hush was where she learned his identity but that doesn't seem to be King's taken on it (where Selina apparently knew almost from day one).

    Although I've often felt King's comprehensive approach to the relationship has also been at odds with how he writes the relationship at times. Like, would they really go from their dynamic in the annual to all those flashbacks where they're more antagonistic and she's much more openly a villain?
    To be fair, it is clear he's purposefully playing around with the fractured chronology and history of the characters as a way to reflect upon their relationship throughout the years. It feels like he's much more aware of the "selective continuity" that so many DC stories suffer from than others, and instead likes to play around with it more in a thematic sense, so in that case I don't have too big of a problem with it. Just when you try to examine it literally, just like with most other DC character's histories, starts to go all over the place.
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  3. #243
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    To be fair, it is clear he's purposefully playing around with the fractured chronology and history of the characters as a way to reflect upon their relationship throughout the years. It feels like he's much more aware of the "selective continuity" that so many DC stories suffer from than others, and instead likes to play around with it more in a thematic sense, so in that case I don't have too big of a problem with it. Just when you try to examine it literally, just like with most other DC character's histories, starts to go all over the place.
    I get that...it just didn't seem to track with how he was actually writing/characterizing the relationship.

    Like Selina being an out-and-out Supervillain at all feels weird with the more in-depth moments he's written her in. Their dynamic doesn't feel like one where I could have seen Batman ever actually arresting her or doing enough to where he would feel like he had to. Especially if she knew who he was.

    Although it would be a hilarious alternate ending to the flashback story in the annual where after their big romantic kiss and the ensuing "boat/street" debate Batman still slapped the cuffs on her and took her to jail. Maybe as a "The Cat and the Claw" nod .

  4. #244
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I get that...it just didn't seem to track with how he was actually writing/characterizing the relationship.

    Like Selina being an out-and-out Supervillain at all feels weird with the more in-depth moments he's written her in. Their dynamic doesn't feel like one where I could have seen Batman ever actually arresting her or doing enough to where he would feel like he had to. Especially if she knew who he was.

    Although it would be a hilarious alternate ending to the flashback story in the annual where after their big romantic kiss and the ensuing "boat/street" debate Batman still slapped the cuffs on her and took her to jail. Maybe as a "The Cat and the Claw" nod .
    I feel like knowing the history of Catwoman, no matter what exactly is in continuity or not, I think it would be out of character if Selina DIDN'T go full supervilain at some point or another. Because that's always been her thing, swinging between the light and the dark, and even during this Rebirth era, some of that dark has peeped out. Plus it would be another reason that halted Bruce and her from being a real pairing for so long, she can't help being bad sometimes and he's gonna want to punish hr.

    Or even could be considered a "Chase Me" nod, slapping the cuffs on her after making it seem he's gonna let her go. This was also right after she tried to give him a "sorry kiss" after he got mauled by tigers, so she kind of deserved it in that instance
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  5. #245
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I feel like knowing the history of Catwoman, no matter what exactly is in continuity or not, I think it would be out of character if Selina DIDN'T go full supervilain at some point or another.
    I disagree. In the very old days, she never qualified to run with the big dogs, as it were, because she was a non-killer. It was a thing.

    . Because that's always been her thing, swinging between the light and the dark
    Which I have never liked. Once they go good, they need to stay good. The flip-flopping is not only annoying, it leads to a situation where the was-and-will-be-a-villain-again is either rightfully not trusted by the heroes or is trusted by people who really shouldn't trust them (and therefore appear foolish) because of all the times they reverted in the past. The back-and-forth is irritating to me, no matter the character and it gets tired and boring. Worst of all, so often the switches seem editorially mandated and aren't really consistent with how the character was acting a month ago. A villain may become good, and get a second chance and that's great. No third chances, and certainly no fourth or fifth. Definition of insanity and all...

    Mind you, I like the idea of Selina and Bruce (or Catwoman and Batman) never actually being involved until after she's gone (relatively) straight. New 52 version was not my thing at all.

  6. #246
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Mind you, I like the idea of Selina and Bruce (or Catwoman and Batman) never actually being involved until after she's gone (relatively) straight. New 52 version was not my thing at all.
    I do agree with that, it's why I think King's run is one of the few times I personally felt a real connection between Bruce and Selina as an actual couple, whereas most previous iterations feel more like a sexual attraction the two have to each other, the thrill of the chase of being on opposite sides of the moral compass, rather than any true feelings.

    And of course like you mentioned, Selina isn't a killer so she doesn't end up on the same levels as the other criminals, but that's not to say she isn't completely blameless with occasionally getting involved in said circles (her conversation with Joker in The Best Man directly referenced this)
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  7. #247
    Astonishing Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Which I have never liked. Once they go good, they need to stay good. The flip-flopping is not only annoying, it leads to a situation where the was-and-will-be-a-villain-again is either rightfully not trusted by the heroes or is trusted by people who really shouldn't trust them (and therefore appear foolish) because of all the times they reverted in the past. The back-and-forth is irritating to me, no matter the character and it gets tired and boring. Worst of all, so often the switches seem editorially mandated and aren't really consistent with how the character was acting a month ago. A villain may become good, and get a second chance and that's great. No third chances, and certainly no fourth or fifth. Definition of insanity and all...
    I think your instincts are good, but not the conclusions.

    Early DC partly built on a very simplified good-and-bad scheme, but lots of the world has managed to work beyond that. Swamp Thing, Batman, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Zatanna, and Hal Jordan all come from and inhabit very different places, and have very different outlooks on life and priorities. That also means that good storytelling naturally can put them into conflict with each other without having to make them "bad" or "good".

    Ed Brubaker leaned hard into that in his Catwoman run. She was a hero of the street in a way that Batman never was or could be. Frank Miller early in his career also clearly understood that in TDKR. While a character like Batman never can trust Poison Ivy, that doesn't mean Zatanna, Wonder Woman, or Swamp Thing can't trust her, because they understand and respect her concerns and motivations on a much deeper level.
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  8. #248
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I disagree. In the very old days, she never qualified to run with the big dogs, as it were, because she was a non-killer. It was a thing.

    Which I have never liked. Once they go good, they need to stay good. The flip-flopping is not only annoying, it leads to a situation where the was-and-will-be-a-villain-again is either rightfully not trusted by the heroes or is trusted by people who really shouldn't trust them (and therefore appear foolish) because of all the times they reverted in the past. The back-and-forth is irritating to me, no matter the character and it gets tired and boring. Worst of all, so often the switches seem editorially mandated and aren't really consistent with how the character was acting a month ago. A villain may become good, and get a second chance and that's great. No third chances, and certainly no fourth or fifth. Definition of insanity and all...

    Mind you, I like the idea of Selina and Bruce (or Catwoman and Batman) never actually being involved until after she's gone (relatively) straight. New 52 version was not my thing at all.
    Flip flopping is normal and to be expected.I would argue that expecting a criminal especially one who does it for the thrills to reform so easily without relapse is being unrealistic even for a comic character. She's only human and her stealing is like an addiction.

    Personally I don't see the value of Catwoman the hero.Why change what makes her unique to turn her into what DC has more than enough of?

    I don't get the sudden trend for foes turning into half baked anti heroes. Look at Harley and Ivy. Bad girls gone mediocre

  9. #249
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Early DC partly built on a very simplified good-and-bad scheme, but lots of the world has managed to work beyond that. Swamp Thing, Batman, Catwoman, Poison Ivy, Zatanna, and Hal Jordan all come from and inhabit very different places, and have very different outlooks on life and priorities. That also means that good storytelling naturally can put them into conflict with each other without having to make them "bad" or "good".
    That doesn't work for me. I like the struggle of good v. evil where good usually wins. That's just my thing. I prefer comics set up where heroes are most good, villains are mostly evil, and only a few operate in gray space. I love reading about heroes. Lot of characters, neither good nor bad, but each pursuing their own ends, it's just politics or power games, and doesn't evoke any emotional response from me. I find it dull. Though I know many people love it.

    Flip flopping is normal and to be expected.I would argue that expecting a criminal especially one who does it for the thrills to reform so easily without relapse is being unrealistic even for a comic character. She's only human and her stealing is like an addiction.

    Personally I don't see the value of Catwoman the hero.Why change what makes her unique to turn her into what DC has more than enough of?

    I don't get the sudden trend for foes turning into half baked anti heroes. Look at Harley and Ivy. Bad girls gone mediocre
    Just can't agree. For me, Catwoman was set up as not-so-bad quite early (second appearance, I believe) and her turning hero is great (some goodish story stuff on that in the bronze age - the amnesiac flight attendant thing from earlier was silly). I do think Harley and Ivy should remain villains, rather than turn anti-hero. But even remaining eternally non-killing thief would be far superior to flip-flopping, which is just weak storytelling to me.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-05-2019 at 05:32 AM.

  10. #250
    Astonishing Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That doesn't work for me. I like the struggle of good v. evil where good usually wins. That's just my thing. I prefer comics set up where heroes are most good, villains are mostly evil, and only a few operate in gray space. I love reading about heroes. Lot of characters, neither good nor bad, but each pursuing their own ends, it's just politics or power games, and doesn't evoke any emotional response from me. I find it dull. Though I know many people love it.

    Just can't agree. For me, Catwoman was set up as not-so-bad quite early (second appearance, I believe) and her turning hero is great (some goodish story stuff on that in the bronze age - the amnesiac flight attendant thing from earlier was silly). I do think Harley and Ivy should remain, villains, rather than turn anti-hero. But even remaining eternally non-killing thief would be far superior to flip-flopping, which is just weak storytelling to me.
    In her second appearance, Selina saved Dick from Joker. Yes. I'm actually surprised how not-as-supervillain she was.

    When it comes to flip-flopping, I just like things that make sense, for example, I absolutely do not believe anyone would want to work with Mystique unless they're blackmailed or tricked by one of her schemes. She's the worst at this.

    When it comes to Catwoman though, as far as I understand it Batman has been tolerating her because he's just that smitten. It's been like that since her first appearance. Sometimes he does catch her and throws her to prison, sometimes he doesn't. My reaction to that will depend on specifics because from his general attitude I do think he's looking for a reason not to fight her. So if she gives a good enough reason that fits Batman's character and attitude towards her, then I don't mind.

    Harley and Ivy... Batman will give a chance because he understands where they come from and he always wants Arkham people to reform. That's why he put them in Arkham, and not put them down... but he's not smitten to them the way he does Catwoman. So I don't see him not sending them back to Arkham unless he finds that their current life has a more positive effect than having them stay at Arkham.

    So Harley and Ivy being happy lesbians together not doing any crime related to their psychosis? Arkham No.
    Harley and Ivy being happy lesbians together but do crimes? Arkham Yes.
    Last edited by Restingvoice; 08-05-2019 at 07:28 AM.

  11. #251
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    And of course like you mentioned, Selina isn't a killer so she doesn't end up on the same levels as the other criminals, but that's not to say she isn't completely blameless with occasionally getting involved in said circles (her conversation with Joker in The Best Man directly referenced this)
    Is Selina killing Black Mask not canon anymore? Oh wait, DC continuity .
    Quote Originally Posted by kjn View Post
    Ed Brubaker leaned hard into that in his Catwoman run. She was a hero of the street in a way that Batman never was or could be. Frank Miller early in his career also clearly understood that in TDKR. While a character like Batman never can trust Poison Ivy, that doesn't mean Zatanna, Wonder Woman, or Swamp Thing can't trust her, because they understand and respect her concerns and motivations on a much deeper level.
    Although I feel like sometimes that can get to the point where they ignore or just gloss over some of the shady or criminal stuff Ivy does. Swamp Thing wouldn't care though.

    It's why I'm not a fan of some of Batgirl and Ivy's recent interaction. Or Batgirl and Harley.

  12. #252
    Spectacular Member Huntsman1117's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    It's why I'm not a fan of some of Batgirl and Ivy's recent interaction. Or Batgirl and Harley.
    How does Batgirl interact with Harley & Ivy? I haven't read many Batgirl stories.

    I feel Catwoman is always going to be a theif at heart and will always be morally gray. I love reading stories of her more grandeur heists, but I love watching her take down truly evil people and organizations. I'm not sure I'd like her to completely reform, even if it means she doesn't have a permanent relationship with Bruce.

  13. #253
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Is Selina killing Black Mask not canon anymore? Oh wait, DC continuity .

    Although I feel like sometimes that can get to the point where they ignore or just gloss over some of the shady or criminal stuff Ivy does. Swamp Thing wouldn't care though.

    It's why I'm not a fan of some of Batgirl and Ivy's recent interaction. Or Batgirl and Harley.
    In the n52, Selina TRIED to kill Black Mask, but it lasted all of like...two pages.
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  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    Flip flopping is normal and to be expected.I would argue that expecting a criminal especially one who does it for the thrills to reform so easily without relapse is being unrealistic even for a comic character. She's only human and her stealing is like an addiction.

    Personally I don't see the value of Catwoman the hero.Why change what makes her unique to turn her into what DC has more than enough of?

    I don't get the sudden trend for foes turning into half baked anti heroes. Look at Harley and Ivy. Bad girls gone mediocre
    It's not a sudden trend. It's been happening for decades. Some have benefited from it, others haven't.

  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    That doesn't work for me. I like the struggle of good v. evil where good usually wins. That's just my thing. I prefer comics set up where heroes are most good, villains are mostly evil, and only a few operate in gray space. I love reading about heroes. Lot of characters, neither good nor bad, but each pursuing their own ends, it's just politics or power games, and doesn't evoke any emotional response from me. I find it dull. Though I know many people love it.

    Just can't agree. For me, Catwoman was set up as not-so-bad quite early (second appearance, I believe) and her turning hero is great (some goodish story stuff on that in the bronze age - the amnesiac flight attendant thing from earlier was silly). I do think Harley and Ivy should remain villains, rather than turn anti-hero. But even remaining eternally non-killing thief would be far superior to flip-flopping, which is just weak storytelling to me.
    I agree with you.
    Catwoman was set up as more of a grey area. She wasn't evil nor crazy.
    Yes...She tried to get Joker to spare Robin.
    She pushed Batman out of the way when a wall was about to come down toppling all over him and that set up the amnesiac flight attendant

    This golden age Batman and Catwoman ended up being put into Earth Two
    Catwoman ended up reforming and they ended up getting married and they had a daughter that became the Huntress
    Catwoman was blackmailed into going back to crime and ended up killed which led to their daughter becoming the Huntress

    The bronze age Catwoman ended up reforming in the 1980s
    she was just Selina Kyle for awhile and she became Catwoman to tried to save her life from a terminal illness
    she was in a relationship with Bruce Wayne, and she broke up with him because of his lack of trust and understanding when she turned to him when she needed his help in regards to her terminal illness
    The only time she came off looking bad and/or crazy during her reformed stage was when she ran Bruce and Vicky off the road which eventually led to a physical confrontation between between them which ended up with Catwoman calling Batman "Bruce" and his acknowledging how they hurt each other and how he was sorry. They were hugging and she was in tears

    She ended up becoming a crimefighter until Joker abducted her and changed her mentality back into villain with a mind machine

    If there was any Batman rogue that I thought could reform and be a hero, it's Catwoman.

    I can't see any other of Batman rogues being that way.


    another thing
    The Silver Age Catwoman did a little crimefighting , but she did it because she was competing with Batgirl out of jealousy.
    She mistakenly thought Batgirl was trying to get with Batman.
    She committed a crime and set up a trap to get Batman to marry her.
    This was the first comic that Batman acknowledged that Catwoman was in love with him, and Robin said that everybody else knew that except him.

    In the Bronze Age, everybody knew that Catwoman loved Batman, and that includes all the rogues
    there was a story about "Who Killed the Batman?"
    none of the other Batman rogues wanted Catwoman there because of hercla love for Batman
    she was grieving while everybody else was celebrating
    all of them claiming that they killed Batman


    during her reformed stage in the Bronze Age, Robin turned to Catwoman for help because he felt that Talia was using Batman
    they briefly worked together
    there was a mutual respect that was built up between Robin and Catwoman that Robin ended up speaking up for her during the jealousy over Vicki Vale episode comic.
    Last edited by Starrius; 08-06-2019 at 10:14 AM.
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