Poison Ivy Appreciation 2019

[kjn]

So, about Heroes in Crisis #7.

Poison Ivy is revivificated, as I believe some people here have speculated. However, it still leaves me with a sour taste, for several reasons.

One is of course the entire context with all the other dead superheroes, reduced to redshirt status. Like them, Poison Ivy is reduced to play the role of a corpse in another hero's story, and she has never been given any agency about her parts in it. Even if she was only fridged for six issues, she was still fridged for those six issues. She was also removed or blocked from appearing in other stories in the buildup to this one.

Then I have another issue, though it touches on things that might change with the final issues. Read how Ivy speaks. She lacks knowledge and personality: in a sense she is reborn, purified to serve as an innocent witness to Wally's death. But she still lacks any form of agency.

If the idea here is to create a heroic Ivy, then I have a real problem with it. One of the fundamental points about Ivy is that she is in reaction to violence from men: against herself, against children, or against nature. Her turn towards a more heroic nature has been built on caring for others: Harley Quinn, the orphans in No Man's Land, the light in Gotham, or plants. For Ivy, agency and making her own choices is a positive good. To make her turn to heroism predicated on violence against her, removal of her agency, and men making choices for her would be a violation of the entire history of the character.

[Agent Z]

Ivy's biggest problem is that while she has a sympathetic origin, she has not been written as a sympathetic character for large parts of her history. The idea of a female character trying to avenge and prevent violence against women, children and the environment gets undermined when said character is depicted as a misanthropic, murderous sexual predator.


As much as I like a heroic and sympathetic Ivy, the sad truth is that this is not the image DC has pushed of her for the longest time. I mean, can you really reconcile the Ivy who made her garden a safe haven for runaways with the Ivy who kept Count Vertigo as a drugged-up sex slave in Ostrander's Suicide Squad? There is a reason King retconned it so that Ivy never actually killed anyone before.

I won't claim to be a huge fan of this direction but it might be the best way to getting a heroic and sympathetic Ivy and making sure it sticks.

[Frontier]

Ivy's biggest problem is that while she has a sympathetic origin, she has not been written as a sympathetic character for large parts of her history. The idea of a female character trying to avenge and prevent violence against women, children and the environment gets undermined when said character is depicted as a misanthropic, murderous sexual predator.


As much as I like a heroic and sympathetic Ivy, the sad truth is that this is not the image DC has pushed of her for the longest time. I mean, can you really reconcile the Ivy who made her garden a safe haven for runaways with the Ivy who kept Count Vertigo as a drugged-up sex slave in Ostrander's Suicide Squad? There is a reason King retconned it so that Ivy never actually killed anyone before.

I won't claim to be a huge fan of this direction but it might be the best way to getting a heroic and sympathetic Ivy and making sure it sticks.

I mean, I can, just by acknowledging that people act differently in different situations, with different people, and in different times of their lives.

(I really didn't like that King retcon for a lot of reasons).

[MentalManipulator]

Personally, I still prefer her original look from B:TAS.

Me too! This is the ideal animated Ivy for me. I liked her green skin in the comics (Hush specially) but always thought it didn't translate well in animation.

[kjn]

As much as I like a heroic and sympathetic Ivy, the sad truth is that this is not the image DC has pushed of her for the longest time. I mean, can you really reconcile the Ivy who made her garden a safe haven for runaways with the Ivy who kept Count Vertigo as a drugged-up sex slave in Ostrander's Suicide Squad? There is a reason King retconned it so that Ivy never actually killed anyone before.

Agreed.

I won't claim to be a huge fan of this direction but it might be the best way to getting a heroic and sympathetic Ivy and making sure it sticks.

With "this direction", do you mean Heroes in Crisis?

In any case, I'm not sure a heroic Poison Ivy would work. She needs that radical and dangerous edge to her, of being a threat to the established order, in order to be at her best. She is arguably the most politically charged character in the entire DC—and I'm including Wonder Woman in that list.

And as for making it stick, I'm afraid King's approach won't work. The best way to make a turn stick is if it is connected with a compelling and popular story with the turn at its core—and none of that is true of Heroes in Crisis, as far as I can tell.

[Green Ghost]

After teasing Ivy’s involvement in his new series DCeased, Tom Taylor shared this horror homage variant cover for #2

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Source

Really looking forward to this now!

[darkeyes]

After teasing Ivy’s involvement in his new series DCeased, Tom Taylor shared this horror homage variant cover for #2

C1DAE1E9-0BAC-48A4-A9A8-7B4C018763A1.jpg

Source

Really looking forward to this now!

It is nice to see Ivy front and center on a comic cover again rather than mixed in the background among others of Batman's Rogues.

[Frontier]

It is nice to see Ivy front and center on a comic cover again rather than mixed in the background among others of Batman's Rogues.

Albeit she's also apparently wearing nothing but a bedsheet .

[Agent Z]

With "this direction", do you mean Heroes in Crisis?

Yes. To be clear, I mean her new incarnation introduced in that story.

In any case, I'm not sure a heroic Poison Ivy would work. She needs that radical and dangerous edge to her, of being a threat to the established order, in order to be at her best.

Maybe, but I don’t think this is mutually exclusive from a heroic Ivy. It might just mean we won’t have stuff like the aforementioned sex slavery of men.

You know, the current Female Furies comic has drawn some ire over its subject matter as some people think the Furies aren't sympathetic enough to be used as avenues to explore said subject matter. I feel the way DC has handled Ivy has the same problems.

And as for making it stick, I'm afraid King's approach won't work. The best way to make a turn stick is if it is connected with a compelling and popular story with the turn at its core—and none of that is true of Heroes in Crisis, as far as I can tell.

Given that King is considered a beloved writer by DC, if not the fans, I feel this take just might stick. Especially if Didio is in charge.

[kjn]

Maybe, but I don’t think this is mutually exclusive from a heroic Ivy. It might just mean we won’t have stuff like the aforementioned sex slavery of men.

I think this might come down to definitions of heroism. I'm not sure I would call the Poison Ivy of say The Cycle of Life and Death heroic: she is far too ruthless and ready to use deadly force. But she's definitely a compelling anti-villain.

In a way, you can't have both Batman and Poison Ivy heroic at the same time: their goals regarding society are in such opposition against each other. Like Catwoman under Brubaker she should point some lights onto some ugly assumptions underlying Batman and our society.

Given that King is considered a beloved writer by DC, if not the fans, I feel this take just might stick. Especially if Didio is in charge.

DC pushed Daddy!Zeus really hard with Wonder Woman, including having it be part of the movie. That haven't stopped the fans (and here I include writers as well) from largely successfully pushing back against the idea.

[Caivu]

By Heather Burnham:

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[PwrdOn]

The first DC Superhero Girls cartoon had a purely heroic version of Ivy and definitely made it work pretty well, though obviously that was dependent on the tone established by the series and there's no way that would work in the main comics continuity. As far as I'm concerned though, the best way to play Ivy is not as a hero or a villain, but as someone whose motivations don't really fit our understanding of morality, and so she has that element of unpredictably that makes her dangerous. On the other hand, she has enough of a human side to her to make her relatable and, just as importantly, vulnerable. In a good Poison Ivy story, she not only presents a threat that must be dealt with but also represents something that needs to be preserved and protected as well, and both the in-story heroes and the reader should have difficulty reconciling these conflicting views.

[K. Jones]

Similarly to Killer Frost actually, I believe the time is probably right to split Poison Ivy into two versions - the good version, the one we all dig on, Pamela Isley, neutral but generally kind of heroic, one-time Squad paramour of Count Vertigo, girlfriend to Harley Quinn and Gotham City Siren, sort of gray area anti-hero, rooted in the Neil Gaiman revamp origin and grown from there. And then bring back the O.G. Lillian Rose to be the evil Poison Ivy so that artists and writers can still have a villainous Ivy in all those supervillain team-up gauntlets and depict plant horror and whatever.

I don't know if you change up the name. In the case of Frost, Caitlin definitely seems to have dropped the "Killer" and that title is applicable to Crystal Frost and Louise Lincoln again, where Frost is now somewhat of a heroic character without "Killer" in front. So do you then drop the "Poison" from Pam?

Anyway it's just a thought about reconciling the "good Ivy" versus "bad Ivy" constant confusion because different writers are always trying to use her for different cross-purposes.

Has there ever been a story where Poison Ivy teamed up or interacted with Black Orchid, Black Thorn, and Rose & Thorn?

[PwrdOn]

Similarly to Killer Frost actually, I believe the time is probably right to split Poison Ivy into two versions - the good version, the one we all dig on, Pamela Isley, neutral but generally kind of heroic, one-time Squad paramour of Count Vertigo, girlfriend to Harley Quinn and Gotham City Siren, sort of gray area anti-hero, rooted in the Neil Gaiman revamp origin and grown from there. And then bring back the O.G. Lillian Rose to be the evil Poison Ivy so that artists and writers can still have a villainous Ivy in all those supervillain team-up gauntlets and depict plant horror and whatever.

I don't know if you change up the name. In the case of Frost, Caitlin definitely seems to have dropped the "Killer" and that title is applicable to Crystal Frost and Louise Lincoln again, where Frost is now somewhat of a heroic character without "Killer" in front. So do you then drop the "Poison" from Pam?

Anyway it's just a thought about reconciling the "good Ivy" versus "bad Ivy" constant confusion because different writers are always trying to use her for different cross-purposes.

Has there ever been a story where Poison Ivy teamed up or interacted with Black Orchid, Black Thorn, and Rose & Thorn?

Thorn had a backup story in the Lois Lane comic, and one issue featured Poison Ivy as a guest villain. As this story was written back before Ivy was given any real powers and was just a vamp with a plant theme, the ending sees her confronting Thorn with a pistol of all things, only to be tripped up, disarmed, and punched out in short order:



Not exactly the best showing for our girl, but she was just the baddie of the week there and besides, I can hardly recall a story from those early days where Ivy actually won a fist fight.

[kjn]

The first DC Superhero Girls cartoon had a purely heroic version of Ivy and definitely made it work pretty well, though obviously that was dependent on the tone established by the series and there's no way that would work in the main comics continuity. As far as I'm concerned though, the best way to play Ivy is not as a hero or a villain, but as someone whose motivations don't really fit our understanding of morality, and so she has that element of unpredictably that makes her dangerous. On the other hand, she has enough of a human side to her to make her relatable and, just as importantly, vulnerable. In a good Poison Ivy story, she not only presents a threat that must be dealt with but also represents something that needs to be preserved and protected as well, and both the in-story heroes and the reader should have difficulty reconciling these conflicting views.

Very much agreed. As for the DCSHG Poison Ivy, you can draw the lines between this Ivy and the later "adult" Ivy; she is in some ways the person that Poison Ivy would have been if she hadn't grown up in abustive relations. The DCHSG Ivy is very much the passionate nerd, who is nearly always shy but opens up around her interests to a degree where she almost appears to be a different person.

Similarly to Killer Frost actually, I believe the time is probably right to split Poison Ivy into two versions - the good version, the one we all dig on, Pamela Isley, neutral but generally kind of heroic, one-time Squad paramour of Count Vertigo, girlfriend to Harley Quinn and Gotham City Siren, sort of gray area anti-hero, rooted in the Neil Gaiman revamp origin and grown from there. And then bring back the O.G. Lillian Rose to be the evil Poison Ivy so that artists and writers can still have a villainous Ivy in all those supervillain team-up gauntlets and depict plant horror and whatever.

I think Stjepan Sejic already has turned somewhat in this direction…

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