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  1. #46
    The One Above All 616MarvelYear is LeapYear's Avatar
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    Tales to Astonish #52 Feb 1964
    The Black Knight Strikes!
    After being arrested for treason by Giant-Man,

    Professor Garrett flees to Europe where he manipulate the genes of horses and eagles

    to create a winged horse.

    Script by Stan Lee, art by Dick Ayers
    Last edited by 616MarvelYear is LeapYear; 02-11-2019 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #47
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    A reminder that Hank Pym canonically knows Judo:
    And without being trained by Captain America .

  3. #48
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    And without being trained by Captain America .
    I did love how the old handbooks back in the day made it sound like anyone who spends more than 5 minutes in a room with Steve managed to learn judo.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I wonder if marvel basically gave up on Pym as far as trying to get him past all his issues. It doesn't seem like they are trying too hard to fix his current predicament.
    yeah i was super disappointed when pym-tron returned and then the infinity countdown ending. I was hoping as the MCU had started to show how awesome hank could be they would give him a chance but it seems more of the same when it comes to downtrodden hank. Such a shame as he was a founding avenger, the creator of the infinite mansion, ultron, wasp and his intelligence and knowledge has saved the avengers and the world so many times. I dunno if people struggle to write all his mental health issues so just sweep him away when they take over as writer. I loved him in Academy and AI and his worth was shown in Age of Ultron but then Pym-tron, argh, give the greatest hero a break!

  5. #50
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maklelin highbain View Post
    yeah i was super disappointed when pym-tron returned and then the infinity countdown ending. I was hoping as the MCU had started to show how awesome hank could be they would give him a chance but it seems more of the same when it comes to downtrodden hank. Such a shame as he was a founding avenger, the creator of the infinite mansion, ultron, wasp and his intelligence and knowledge has saved the avengers and the world so many times. I dunno if people struggle to write all his mental health issues so just sweep him away when they take over as writer. I loved him in Academy and AI and his worth was shown in Age of Ultron but then Pym-tron, argh, give the greatest hero a break!
    I think part of the problem is anytime someone fixes him, another writer breaks him again. Its like pushing a boulder up a hill after a certain point.

  6. #51
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    see I do a bunch of writing (fantasy) as a hobby (mainly to flesh out my D&D campaign world) and I love writing the characters that have greater dimensions than others, it breeds such creativity when you have to try and think outside of the box. And Hank fits that description to a T. So I wish someone would take that aforementioned boulder and keep pushing to see where it actually goes. He has so much going for him and is given so little credit. So many other characters with so much less depth are focused upon over and over, ret-conned when they run their coarse and going again with another trite portrayal of a 2 dimensional character starts and people swallow it up like candy while poor old Hank left in the wilderness or in this case eaten by some inter-dimensional beastie.

    Favourite Hank arc?

    I struggle to choose between 2. I loved him during his stint in mighty avengers as Wasp, Infinite Mansion, Scientist Supreme.

    hank.jpg

    But then his appearance in West Coast when he was all but about to end it all. I thought that was super emotional and showed the highs and lows that Hank fights through on a daily basis.

    wca17_21.jpg

  7. #52
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maklelin highbain View Post
    see I do a bunch of writing (fantasy) as a hobby (mainly to flesh out my D&D campaign world) and I love writing the characters that have greater dimensions than others, it breeds such creativity when you have to try and think outside of the box. And Hank fits that description to a T. So I wish someone would take that aforementioned boulder and keep pushing to see where it actually goes. He has so much going for him and is given so little credit. So many other characters with so much less depth are focused upon over and over, ret-conned when they run their coarse and going again with another trite portrayal of a 2 dimensional character starts and people swallow it up like candy while poor old Hank left in the wilderness or in this case eaten by some inter-dimensional beastie.

    Favourite Hank arc?

    I struggle to choose between 2. I loved him during his stint in mighty avengers as Wasp, Infinite Mansion, Scientist Supreme.

    hank.jpg

    But then his appearance in West Coast when he was all but about to end it all. I thought that was super emotional and showed the highs and lows that Hank fights through on a daily basis.

    wca17_21.jpg
    I agree with you on everything you wrote.

    As for the arcs I like the best, I'm with you on the WCA, basically the entire run. I liked how Hank stepped up after hitting the lowest point, and even took over the team when Hawkeye threw a fit and left. Basically he and Jan were co-leaders of the WCA at some point, non-officially though.

    I liked the old-school Avengers featuring Hank, before the Yellowjacket switch. And Busiek's run was probably one of the best for Hank. He seemed to genuinely understand the character. The only current writer that makes me feel the same is Mark Waid.

    While it wasn't popular, I liked Avengers A.I. The art was terrible, except for those two issues drawn by Valerio Schiti, but it was in those issues that the bipolar diagnosis was made canon, and I thought it was handled very well. Too bad it ended, it was a fun ride.

    One thing that strikes me thinking about arcs is that, through all of Hank's troubles (that honestly were not THAT much worse or more than your average Marvel character...) he got through all of it all on his own. There was nobody to help him out, no friend who said : "Hey, I'm here for you if you need me". The only time I remember somebody actively trying to help him out was Bonita Juarez in WCA. That, right there, is pretty sad, especially since Hank would probably be the first one to help out a "friend" in need... The only time someone would come to his help was if they thought he might cause trouble if they didn't do anything.

    That's why I was happy at first about the creation of Nadia. I thought: "Finally, FINALLY, somebody is going to care enough to do something and try and rescue him". Oh how I was mistaken!
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

    Currently looking for a pull list... Does near-mint West Coast Avengers count?

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  8. #53
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I did love how the old handbooks back in the day made it sound like anyone who spends more than 5 minutes in a room with Steve managed to learn judo.
    Hehe. Yeah, I know what you mean. It was applied to many characters, mostly female: Wasp, Wanda and Sue in the FF, who learned her Judo from Reed. Hehe, those old days.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mary Jay View Post
    I agree with you on everything you wrote.

    As for the arcs I like the best, I'm with you on the WCA, basically the entire run. I liked how Hank stepped up after hitting the lowest point, and even took over the team when Hawkeye threw a fit and left. Basically he and Jan were co-leaders of the WCA at some point, non-officially though.

    I liked the old-school Avengers featuring Hank, before the Yellowjacket switch. And Busiek's run was probably one of the best for Hank. He seemed to genuinely understand the character. The only current writer that makes me feel the same is Mark Waid.

    While it wasn't popular, I liked Avengers A.I. The art was terrible, except for those two issues drawn by Valerio Schiti, but it was in those issues that the bipolar diagnosis was made canon, and I thought it was handled very well. Too bad it ended, it was a fun ride.

    One thing that strikes me thinking about arcs is that, through all of Hank's troubles (that honestly were not THAT much worse or more than your average Marvel character...) he got through all of it all on his own. There was nobody to help him out, no friend who said : "Hey, I'm here for you if you need me". The only time I remember somebody actively trying to help him out was Bonita Juarez in WCA. That, right there, is pretty sad, especially since Hank would probably be the first one to help out a "friend" in need... The only time someone would come to his help was if they thought he might cause trouble if they didn't do anything.

    That's why I was happy at first about the creation of Nadia. I thought: "Finally, FINALLY, somebody is going to care enough to do something and try and rescue him". Oh how I was mistaken!
    i had a discussion in another thread saying hank was always looked down on because of the Jan slap (which he did during a breakdown and regretted immediately) where as other heroes (i used iron man) can get away with literal murder and he is given help and support and everyone forgives him (i even pointed out that sabretooth was given support by the x-men) and that Hank was always vilified but at no point did anyone step up and actually help Hank. He has more need of support than probably any other hero (possible exception sentry) but nobody ever seemed to be behind him and helping him during his crisis, He was court marshaled, imprisoned, and left by the way side to almost take his own life. If a stranger in the form of Firebird hadn't found him we would no longer have had a hank pym.

  10. #55
    Mighty Member chamber-music's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I think part of the problem is anytime someone fixes him, another writer breaks him again. Its like pushing a boulder up a hill after a certain point.
    Pretty much.

    I said it before but it seems like he is on a never ending circle of reinvention and redemption over the past few decades in comics.
    Most superheroes have their ups and downs (daredevil's life is pretty much a unending trainwreck most the time) but for the failures and flaws are written to be Pym's defining traits instead of just your standards occasional setbacks. Characters can't really grow if your regressing them with each depiction.

    I do like writers to have creative freedom generally but I do also feel that sometimes it would be good if editorial just took a hardline on certain characters or storylines. Basically some in cases they should say if you want to write this character then don't retread to this characterization or commit to this direction of the character or put a moratorium on certain things unless your really offering something new or different prospective to the table.

  11. #56
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    It'd be REAL nice if Editorial vetoed the Pym slap.

  12. #57
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    Pretty much.

    I said it before but it seems like he is on a never ending circle of reinvention and redemption over the past few decades in comics.
    Most superheroes have their ups and downs (daredevil's life is pretty much a unending trainwreck most the time) but for the failures and flaws are written to be Pym's defining traits instead of just your standards occasional setbacks. Characters can't really grow if your regressing them with each depiction.

    I do like writers to have creative freedom generally but I do also feel that sometimes it would be good if editorial just took a hardline on certain characters or storylines. Basically some in cases they should say if you want to write this character then don't retread to this characterization or commit to this direction of the character or put a moratorium on certain things unless your really offering something new or different prospective to the table.
    Yeah, that's the differnce between Pym and say Daredevil or Spider-Man. Matt and Peter have really really bad days all the time, but those aren't their defining traits. Poor Pym is basically known for one of two things... slapping Jan and building Ultron. He doesn't have hundreds and hundreds of solo issues where he's doing a million other things, good or bad. And quite honestly when he's not breaking down or recovering from a break down, he's often just used as more of a background smart guy on the team. Not a diss against the character... just saying he rarely is ever given anything unless he's breaking down or recovering from a break down. He just can't get out of that cycle and there's not much else to remember him for outside of that.

    Again, a part of me wonders if the whole Pym Tron thing isn't just marvel sort of giving up on trying to fix him. THat's probably an overly cynical assumption, and it certianly would be sad if that were the case... but it seems like they're just sort of leaving him in this predicament at least for now. If there's some sort of long term plan to resolve this, they're not doing a great job conveying that.

  13. #58
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    Just thought of a way that Hank could come back, though not really, the Avengers would be in a sub or one of their vehicles and it would be sinking to the bottom of the ocean and Hank would show up and grow into a giant and rescue them and then disappear before they'd find out, only to have them then learn from witness about a giant man saving them, and they'd find out that it wasn't any of the other guys like Hank...leaving it open...or something along those lines...

  14. #59
    Invincible Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maklelin highbain View Post
    i had a discussion in another thread saying hank was always looked down on because of the Jan slap (which he did during a breakdown and regretted immediately) where as other heroes (i used iron man) can get away with literal murder and he is given help and support and everyone forgives him (i even pointed out that sabretooth was given support by the x-men) and that Hank was always vilified but at no point did anyone step up and actually help Hank. He has more need of support than probably any other hero (possible exception sentry) but nobody ever seemed to be behind him and helping him during his crisis, He was court marshaled, imprisoned, and left by the way side to almost take his own life. If a stranger in the form of Firebird hadn't found him we would no longer have had a hank pym.
    I think the problem with Hanks actions is that it was more a "real life" thing, rather than just a comic book thing. Something like Reed and Tony creating a clone of their friend which ends up killing someone is a purely fictional comic book action. But a guy slapping his wife is something that could really happen to you or your friend or your sister or your mother or whatever. And that makes it FEEL worse, even though technically it might not be.

    It's definately a cautionary tale about using potential "real life" issues in comics. It can sometimes be much harder to put the genie back in the bottle, even if it was unintentional.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Mary Jay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by maklelin highbain View Post
    i had a discussion in another thread saying hank was always looked down on because of the Jan slap (which he did during a breakdown and regretted immediately) where as other heroes (i used iron man) can get away with literal murder and he is given help and support and everyone forgives him (i even pointed out that sabretooth was given support by the x-men) and that Hank was always vilified but at no point did anyone step up and actually help Hank. He has more need of support than probably any other hero (possible exception sentry) but nobody ever seemed to be behind him and helping him during his crisis, He was court marshaled, imprisoned, and left by the way side to almost take his own life. If a stranger in the form of Firebird hadn't found him we would no longer have had a hank pym.
    You and I are on the same page, my friend! You summized things way better than I could ever, and I completely agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by chamber-music View Post
    Pretty much.

    I said it before but it seems like he is on a never ending circle of reinvention and redemption over the past few decades in comics.
    Most superheroes have their ups and downs (daredevil's life is pretty much a unending trainwreck most the time) but for the failures and flaws are written to be Pym's defining traits instead of just your standards occasional setbacks. Characters can't really grow if your regressing them with each depiction.

    I do like writers to have creative freedom generally but I do also feel that sometimes it would be good if editorial just took a hardline on certain characters or storylines. Basically some in cases they should say if you want to write this character then don't retread to this characterization or commit to this direction of the character or put a moratorium on certain things unless your really offering something new or different prospective to the table.
    I always said there is so much more to Pym than just what writers often focus on (the slap and Ultron). Even those things could actually be used to build the character in a completely new direction, not only for Pym but for the others around him. He was not in his right mind at the time of the slap, but nobody thought it might be a good thing to help him and/or have him checked by a doctor. Since that day, EVERYBODY thinks back at this story as something evil Hank did, without even thinking "maybe we could have done something else about our friend than kick him to the curve". I'm not saying he didn't do a bad thing, I'm simply saying the situation was more complex than just 1=good 0=bad. There were nuances there that have never been addressed since. It would have been nice to see the others losing sleep over this for a while, or trying to help him out later on instead of permanently categorizing him as a bad person. I remember Clint being outraged at the hearing when Hank was framed by Egghead, and while he was in prison, but that's it.

    As for the part in bold, I completely agree. There are things that are inherent to a character, especially one that has had over fifty years of development. Hank will always be insecure, his BPD will not be erased (as it shouldn't be, because IRL you can't cure it) and he will always want to work towards bettering mankind. But there is so much more he can be and do, if only writers could, as you say, stop retreading the same stories over and over again.
    "You don't raise yourself by stepping on somebody else"

    Currently looking for a pull list... Does near-mint West Coast Avengers count?

    #givebackthesuit
    #stopstealinghisstuff

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