Tales to Astonish! Hank Pym Appreciation 2019

[XPac]

It'd be REAL nice if Editorial vetoed the Pym slap.

In a way, the Crossing actually did retcon the Pym slap. It revealled that his break downs were due to Kang messing with his mind, and in comics mind control effectively is a free pass. Jan and Hank were pretty much getting back together again and he seemed to be moving past it.

I think the problem is Busieks Avengers Forever retconned the Crossing and took away Hanks free pass. And that basically opened up the flood gates for anyone to revisit the issue, which Chuck Austen did. There was no putting the genie back in the bottle after that.

[maklelin highbain]

i was saying to my brother last night that it felt like they tried to sideline him with Pym-Tron and then the end of Countdown Spoiler--- seemed like washing their hands of him entirely, there seems like a way back and then they even ate his damn soul. physical destruction followed by total oblivion --- as a almost 40 year fan of Hank ( I still say he is my favorite marvel hero) I am losing faith that anyone in Marvel agrees with me

[SuperiorIronman]

Retreading stories is basically what Pymtron turned into.

Pymtron started with this neat little angle of Hank finally getting to know Ultron and come to terms with himself. It offered Hank this weird opportunity to wear his pain on his sleeve and people finally having to confront that because, y'know nobody goes looking for Hank or comes to help without just walking in on him. It allowed for people to see in a sense the literal representation of Hank's pain and heartache and with a bit of comicbook science Hank can get his body back and be metaphorically whole again.

So it boggles my brain that people just ended up using him as Ultron with an identity crisis because I didn't get that takeaway from Rage of Ultron at all. A deep narrative about a man needing help and forced to wear his pain "on his sleeve" so people finally help him? Coming to terms with his friends not really giving a damn about him or his problems and only having solace in his son, whom is also a bastard because of completely preventable means? His former wife not even willing to suggest someone go looking for his body? Someone whom we know Hank still cares about just letting him drift away, alone.

I'll admit I like Rage of Ultron because it did allow for people to finally address the issue but man are writers woefully under-equipped to handle this.

[Mary Jay]

Yeah, that's the differnce between Pym and say Daredevil or Spider-Man. Matt and Peter have really really bad days all the time, but those aren't their defining traits. Poor Pym is basically known for one of two things... slapping Jan and building Ultron. He doesn't have hundreds and hundreds of solo issues where he's doing a million other things, good or bad. And quite honestly when he's not breaking down or recovering from a break down, he's often just used as more of a background smart guy on the team. Not a diss against the character... just saying he rarely is ever given anything unless he's breaking down or recovering from a break down. He just can't get out of that cycle and there's not much else to remember him for outside of that.

Again, a part of me wonders if the whole Pym Tron thing isn't just marvel sort of giving up on trying to fix him. THat's probably an overly cynical assumption, and it certianly would be sad if that were the case... but it seems like they're just sort of leaving him in this predicament at least for now. If there's some sort of long term plan to resolve this, they're not doing a great job conveying that.

I think people remember what they want to remember. It's said that if you make ten great things, but one mistake, people will only pick up on and remember the mistake instead of the good deeds. I prefer to focus on the good deeds myself: discovering Pym particles, creating the Wasp, inventing a device to communicate with ants, founding the Avengers, founding and running the Avengers Academy, creating the Infinite Mansion, creating a way to transfer one's counsciousness into a digital matrix (in Avengers A.I.), entering other planes of existence and being able to bring others along with him, defeating Ultron on many occasions, travelling throughout the multiverse to find the Beyonders... and that's just off the top of my head.

I do hope the whole Pymtron thing isn't just to shelf him forever... I don't think that's the case, but I think that Remender wanted to tell a story about a man turned cyborg and used Hank because he thought he fitted the narrative... but he didn't entirely. Then he left Marvel, tossing this hot potato of Pymtron in the air, but nobody seemed to want to catch it for some reason. Maybe because they didn't want to have to pseudo-retcon some stuff that they felt didn't make sense about what Remender wrote (like Hank not believing AIs were sentient beings...). When Duggan finally picked the potato up, it was only to heat it up a bit, and tangled the situation even further (is it Hank? Is it Ultron? Is it someone entirely new? To this day, nobody really knows...)

I believe there are talented writers still at Marvel. And I do believe there is a way to put Hank back into stories, not as Pymtron but as himself, and that there are still good stories to tell with him. Whether someone is ready and willing to do that remains to be seen.

[Mary Jay]

In a way, the Crossing actually did retcon the Pym slap. It revealled that his break downs were due to Kang messing with his mind, and in comics mind control effectively is a free pass. Jan and Hank were pretty much getting back together again and he seemed to be moving past it.

I think the problem is Busieks Avengers Forever retconned the Crossing and took away Hanks free pass. And that basically opened up the flood gates for anyone to revisit the issue, which Chuck Austen did. There was no putting the genie back in the bottle after that.

Most people don't remember The Crossing, or choose not to remember it. In this day and age, I would have hoped that people could understand that mental illness hurts everybody and that we shouldn't villify someone for it. I guess I'm wrong.

And I wasn't reading comics yet when the Austen run occured, but I read it since. It was crap from start to finish, and most people agree with me. All the characters were OOC, and he distorded the narrative of Jan and Hank's relationship so much he did more damage to the characters than anyone else. From what I understand, the slap was pretty much forgotten until Austen put it back out for no reason other than to $hit on the character. Before that, Hank didn't really need "a free pass" because it wasn't relevant anymore. I personally pretend this run never happened. And I think most writers and fans do too

[Mary Jay]

Retreading stories is basically what Pymtron turned into.

Pymtron started with this neat little angle of Hank finally getting to know Ultron and come to terms with himself. It offered Hank this weird opportunity to wear his pain on his sleeve and people finally having to confront that because, y'know nobody goes looking for Hank or comes to help without just walking in on him. It allowed for people to see in a sense the literal representation of Hank's pain and heartache and with a bit of comicbook science Hank can get his body back and be metaphorically whole again.

So it boggles my brain that people just ended up using him as Ultron with an identity crisis because I didn't get that takeaway from Rage of Ultron at all. A deep narrative about a man needing help and forced to wear his pain "on his sleeve" so people finally help him? Coming to terms with his friends not really giving a damn about him or his problems and only having solace in his son, whom is also a bastard because of completely preventable means? His former wife not even willing to suggest someone go looking for his body? Someone whom we know Hank still cares about just letting him drift away, alone.

I'll admit I like Rage of Ultron because it did allow for people to finally address the issue but man are writers woefully under-equipped to handle this.

Maybe you and I have more sensitive souls than people at Marvel... your description of the narrative of RoU is poignant and gut-wrenching, yet nobody at Marvel is apparently capable of picking up on that

[XPac]

Most people don't remember The Crossing, or choose not to remember it. In this day and age, I would have hoped that people could understand that mental illness hurts everybody and that we shouldn't villify someone for it. I guess I'm wrong.

And I wasn't reading comics yet when the Austen run occured, but I read it since. It was crap from start to finish, and most people agree with me. All the characters were OOC, and he distorded the narrative of Jan and Hank's relationship so much he did more damage to the characters than anyone else. From what I understand, the slap was pretty much forgotten until Austen put it back out for no reason other than to $hit on the character. Before that, Hank didn't really need "a free pass" because it wasn't relevant anymore. I personally pretend this run never happened. And I think most writers and fans do too

Yeah, but my point is the slsp stopped being relevant AFTER it was retconned by the crossing. No ome touched the issue because it was resolved. Almost immediately after the Crossing was retconned, pretty much everyone writing Hank played that card.

[chamber-music]

I think a veto on breakdowns or the time he slapped Janet unless it delivers some new insight for the character would be a good thing.

Create something new for the character and stick to it. If broad scientist hero angle is too similar to other heroes then find a space that is different. Explore the quantum physics angle more since it is considered one of the most interesting scientific sub-fields and is ripe for telling all kinds of interesting science fiction type stories.

Alternatively they could lean into Pym's espionage past from the sixties comics and tell modern spy stories with the character. They already have a in with Pym's daughter being a former Red Room asset. They could bring back Pym's FBI buddy Lee Kearns and have Pym work with him on cases.

There are lots of different directions they could take the direction if they have some imagination and creativity.

I think the problem with Hanks actions is that it was more a "real life" thing, rather than just a comic book thing. Something like Reed and Tony creating a clone of their friend which ends up killing someone is a purely fictional comic book action. But a guy slapping his wife is something that could really happen to you or your friend or your sister or your mother or whatever. And that makes it FEEL worse, even though technically it might not be.

It's definately a cautionary tale about using potential "real life" issues in comics. It can sometimes be much harder to put the genie back in the bottle, even if it was unintentional.

Domestic abuse is bad but at the same time there are characters that have outright murdered people and other heroes have been depicted as being more forgiving of them than Hank Pym. I do often wonder how many people have actually even read the storyline in which Pym hit Janet as well because there is actual context as to how things lead to that point and what took place after the event. It isn't the same as the Ultimates version of these characters in which Hank is a volatile bipolar guy that just slapped Janet around for years whenever he got mad.

The hate Pym gets is also often hypocritical because some of the same people that endless hate him because he hit Janet in a comic forty years ago seem to have zero problem with Spider-Man doing the same thing in the Clone Saga in the nineties. This makes it seem less like a morality or ethics issue and more of a popularity one.

As a long time comic reader I have noticed that some subsection of comic fans really don't like too much moral complexity in comics and do prefer the simple fantasy of good and evil. These fans tend to be very hostile to characters that are depicted in anyways as having real life flaws.

[XPac]

I think a veto on breakdowns or the time he slapped Janet unless it delivers some new insight for the character would be a good thing.

Create something new for the character and stick to it. If broad scientist hero angle is too similar to other heroes then find a space that is different. Explore the quantum physics angle more since it is considered one of the most interesting scientific sub-fields and is ripe for telling all kinds of interesting science fiction type stories.

Alternatively they could lean into Pym's espionage past from the sixties comics and tell modern spy stories with the character. They already have a in with Pym's daughter being a former Red Room asset. They could bring back Pym's FBI buddy Lee Kearns and have Pym work with him on cases.

There are lots of different directions they could take the direction if they have some imagination and creativity.


Domestic abuse is bad but at the same time there are characters that have outright murdered people and other heroes have been depicted as being more forgiving of them than Hank Pym. I do often wonder how many people have actually even read the storyline in which Pym hit Janet as well because there is actual context as to how things lead to that point and what took place after the event. It isn't the same as the Ultimates version of these characters in which Hank is a volatile bipolar guy that just slapped Janet around for years whenever he got mad.

The hate Pym gets is also often hypocritical because some of the same people that endless hate him because he hit Janet in a comic forty years ago seem to have zero problem with Spider-Man doing the same thing in the Clone Saga in the nineties. This makes it seem less like a morality or ethics issue and more of a popularity one.

As a long time comic reader I have noticed that some subsection of comic fans really don't like too much moral complexity in comics and do prefer the simple fantasy of good and evil. These fans tend to be very hostile to characters that are depicted in anyways as having real life flaws.

The Spiderman story went out if its way to paint Peter as sympathetic. He lost control of MJ, then immediately regretted it. Hank sort of didn't give a crap, then had a giant robot attack their friends.

Not that I don't agree there's a bit of a double standard there, but in Peters case he was somewhat protected. The Avengers book didn't do a great job of that with Hank, and it intentionally hurt him more than it should have because of it.

[chamber-music]

Pymtron has been a waste of a potentially interesting angle sadly. It was a chance to do something really interesting with with Pym, Ultron and the wider hero community by proxy but in the end it's been just another villainous Ultron and kick Hank Pym while his down again plotline.

Did anything even come from Pymtron travelling around the universe committing genocide and telling everyone to blame the Avengers?

[chamber-music]

The Spiderman story went out if its way to paint Peter as sympathetic. He lost control of MJ, then immediately regretted it. Hank sort of didn't give a crap, then had a giant robot attack their friends.

Not that I don't agree there's a bit of a double standard there, but in Peters case he was somewhat protected. The Avengers book didn't do a great job of that with Hank, and it intentionally hurt him more than it should have because of it.

Hank was depicted as having a full on mental breakdown and was in a frenzied state. When he was back to a more healthy mental state he was depicted as feeling remorse, apologizing, leaving the avengers even when they said he could stay and even came close to committing suicide.

I wouldn't say Peter was depicted as sympathetic. Peter basically ran away and left his bleeding wife on the floor.

[SuperiorIronman]

Pymtron has been a waste of a potentially interesting angle sadly. It was a chance to do something really interesting with with Pym, Ultron and the wider hero community by proxy but in the end it's been just another villainous Ultron and kick Hank Pym while his down again plotline.

Did anything even come from Pymtron travelling around the universe committing genocide and telling everyone to blame the Avengers?

That to me was the dumbest part about it.

One guy goes around the universe slaughtering all these people and blames the Avengers except;
-One guy did this and your expecting they all want to show up on his home turf?
-One guy did this and you want to send how many guys to go and fight him and his friends?
-Wasn't the guy telling you this also (although an earlier version but they don't know that) the same guy who took over a huge chunk of galaxy in bloody conquest just a few years earlier?
-How are all these species out of the loop of galactic affairs and have the means to go and fight them or even know where Earth is?

This all in an effort to fool the Avengers into thinking Hank was on their side when they finally do invade. When all that was required to be done was just admit he was alive and take part in the never ending saving people from disasters that they normally do. His return in Uncanny Avengers was one of the dumbest supervillain plans I'd read in recent years at that time.

[The Kid]

I still can't believe Marvel introduced a whole teenage daughter for Hank and they haven't even met yet. Especially since I'm pretty sure Nadia even exists as a Hope analog. They're close in the MCU so idk what's going on. It's just bizarre to me that they haven't even met.

[chamber-music]

Jeremy Whitley seems to be possibly planting seeds for some Pym/Pymtron type reunion with the AIM as a factor although I have a feeling Marvel might veto him bringing Pym back in that book even though it would probably make sense to bring him back in that title.

[Mary Jay]

I still can't believe Marvel introduced a whole teenage daughter for Hank and they haven't even met yet. Especially since I'm pretty sure Nadia even exists as a Hope analog. They're close in the MCU so idk what's going on. It's just bizarre to me that they haven't even met.

How can they meet? Hank is dead.

When I heard about Nadia's creation, I thought it was for the sole purpose of mirroring the MCU in the sense that, in Ant-Man and the Wasp, Hank and Hope worked together to rescue Janet. I thought they would mirror that and that in comics, Nadia and Janet would work together to rescue Hank. But no, they don't really seem to care. They care about his money, his company, his house in NJ, his gadgets, but not his life or his name, apparently.