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  1. #361
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by juan678 View Post
    no in the preview Capitan Marvel 7 preview Guest Starring Amora

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/06...vel-7-preview/
    Seriously, it's really hard to see Amora even on comics previews.

    As I said before, for me it's weird and an extremely level of laziness (also very sad) all of these decades, that from all the Marvel Women Characters from the 60s, Amora the Enchantress never has any thing focused on her and still stuck in the same way.

  2. #362
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    Question, what are the fights Amora has won? For a powerful sorceress, I can't recall any major victories of hers.

  3. #363
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    .... It's not lazyness or somehow targeted at Amora specifically. Characters are not owed panel time based on their age. There are dozens of characters from the 60s and every other decade since that have faded into obscurity completely. Hundreds, even. Listing a handful of lucky ones that have stood the test of time doesn't change the fact that she is actually better off than a lot of older characters who haven't appeared in decades. Marvel has too many characters to focus on all of them all the time, that's all there is to it. There is no conspiracy here, she's just not as popular as she once was. It happens. I know you want to see more of her, but this woe is me act is getting real old.

  4. #364
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    .... It's not lazyness or somehow targeted at Amora specifically. Characters are not owed panel time based on their age. There are dozens of characters from the 60s and every other decade since that have faded into obscurity completely. Hundreds, even. Listing a handful of lucky ones that have stood the test of time doesn't change the fact that she is actually better off than a lot of older characters who haven't appeared in decades. Marvel has too many characters to focus on all of them all the time, that's all there is to it. There is no conspiracy here, she's just not as popular as she once was. It happens. I know you want to see more of her, but this woe is me act is getting real old.
    For me, really if it is, few writers I have seen and read, to do something different with her without falling into the same of the past.

    Before creating this thread several years ago, I was collecting appearances and really there are many inconsistencies about it, many things that have never had an explanation or that simply left it as if nothing were (Defenders Vol.1, 107-109, Secret Wars I or New Mutants Special Edition 1).

    In the recent era, could you explain the coherence, different behavior of her appearances from: Avengers Prime to War of the Realms?

    Anyone has really see any explanation about Lorelei's resurrection? Is Sylvie Lushton still alive and where she is to be?
    Last edited by Charlie_1981; 06-16-2019 at 08:05 AM.

  5. #365
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Question, what are the fights Amora has won? For a powerful sorceress, I can't recall any major victories of hers.
    Casiolena on Defenders, I can't remember the issue, she also has the biggest fight she won (Thor's love on World Engine arc).

  6. #366
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_1981 View Post
    For me, really if it is, few writers I have seen and read, to do something different with her without falling into the same of the past.

    Before creating this thread several years ago, I was collecting appearances and really there are many inconsistencies about it, many things that have never had an explanation or that simply left it as if nothing were (Defenders Vol.1, 107-109, Secret Wars I or New Mutants Special Edition 1).

    In the recent era, could you explain the coherence, different behavior of her appearances from: Avengers Prime to War of the Realms?

    Anyone has really see any explanation about Lorelei's resurrection? Is Sylvie Lushton still alive and where she is to be?
    That doesn't make it lazy. You keep acting like this only applies to her, but the same can be said of dozens of characters. I repeat, she is not being singled out for neglect. there is no malicious intent here. The popularity of characters waxes and wanes over the years, they change to fit the times, or find themselves rendered irrelevant or problematic due to the passage of time, and that can lead to what could be viewed as inconsistencies or result plot threads get dropped along the way. It happens. Even to the big guns.

    She is a supporting character, and has always been. The writers are not obligated to give her focus or development if it doesn't serve the story of the character whose name is on the cover. There is no panel time quota for any character, and nor should there be, or it would get in the way of advancing the plot of the character whose name is on the cover. That's all there is to it. It may be possible that at some point a story where she is the focus may happen, but I wouldn't count on it. Until then, you have to accept what you're given. And if you look at every single appearance as being not good enough in some way, you will always be disappointed. I mean, she took out 2 of the most powerful characters in the MU, both Carol and Strange, at the same time, which is a very good showing, and you are still complaining. If you constantly demonstrate that nothing short of a solo story where she gets everything she wants and lives happily ever after will ever be good enough, why should Marvel bother trying?

  7. #367
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    That doesn't make it lazy. You keep acting like this only applies to her, but the same can be said of dozens of characters. I repeat, she is not being singled out for neglect. there is no malicious intent here. The popularity of characters waxes and wanes over the years, they change to fit the times, or find themselves rendered irrelevant or problematic due to the passage of time, and that can lead to what could be viewed as inconsistencies or result plot threads get dropped along the way. It happens. Even to the big guns.

    She is a supporting character, and has always been. The writers are not obligated to give her focus or development if it doesn't serve the story of the character whose name is on the cover. There is no panel time quota for any character, and nor should there be, or it would get in the way of advancing the plot of the character whose name is on the cover. That's all there is to it. It may be possible that at some point a story where she is the focus may happen, but I wouldn't count on it. Until then, you have to accept what you're given. And if you look at every single appearance as being not good enough in some way, you will always be disappointed. I mean, she took out 2 of the most powerful characters in the MU, both Carol and Strange, at the same time, which is a very good showing, and you are still complaining. If you constantly demonstrate that nothing short of a solo story where she gets everything she wants and lives happily ever after will ever be good enough, why should Marvel bother trying?
    To me, personally I do not think so, sincerely, observe the development and the trajectory of all the female characters of the early 60s, do not you see a trend? Why has that never been applied to the Enchantress? Why the little that someone has been tried to do, has been nothing and has not continued from there to do better and start something with continuity and consistency?

    Jean Grey, Invisible Woman, Wasp (Janet Van Dyne), Jane Foster, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch ... these characters have somehow always benefited from some good writers who have really shown an interest in improving them, seeing that they are great characters with a lot to tell, in the case of the Scarlet Witch and The Black Widow, going from villains to heroines and with a bigger role than when they started as has been the case also of the last years with Jane Foster, however, the Enchantress has been left behind, stagnant again and again in the same as always, why? Not even anyone has wanted to explain her story, her origin ... we only knows her sister and has also fallen into oblivion unfortunately and also Sylvie the teen Enchantress who seems nobody remembers.

    To me, I care a lot, because it shows me many things on the part of the publisher and its writers, until they do something better with Amora the Enchantress, a character that I will always like, whatever happens and I will defend. I will believe very little in those feminist ideas and in what Marvel pretends to preach with its female characters, because or they are all, or only are a few chosen.

    You can say whatever you want, but this is what I think and I will continue thinking unless I see or notice a real change, you may not share my arguments or my opinions, but I respect your right to say them, just as I hope that you and everyone respects what I can say.

    And as for the last issue of Captain Marvel, that for once you see something fairly decent in terms of a confrontation and an intelligent strategy on the part of Amora, does not mean too much (it's the most you'll get from me, saying something positive).

  8. #368
    Astonishing Member Phoenixx9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_1981 View Post
    Casiolena on Defenders, I can't remember the issue, she also has the biggest fight she won (Thor's love on World Engine arc).
    Did I hear....Casiolena? I love Casiolena! She has always intrigued me! I always wondered if she was somehow related to Amora! Maybe her Mother? Sister?

  9. #369
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_1981 View Post
    To me, personally I do not think so, sincerely, observe the development and the trajectory of all the female characters of the early 60s, do not you see a trend? Why has that never been applied to the Enchantress? Why the little that someone has been tried to do, has been nothing and has not continued from there to do better and start something with continuity and consistency?

    Jean Grey, Invisible Woman, Wasp (Janet Van Dyne), Jane Foster, Black Widow, Scarlet Witch ... these characters have somehow always benefited from some good writers who have really shown an interest in improving them, seeing that they are great characters with a lot to tell, in the case of the Scarlet Witch and The Black Widow, going from villains to heroines and with a bigger role than when they started as has been the case also of the last years with Jane Foster, however, the Enchantress has been left behind, stagnant again and again in the same as always, why? Not even anyone has wanted to explain her story, her origin ... we only knows her sister and has also fallen into oblivion unfortunately and also Sylvie the teen Enchantress who seems nobody remembers.

    To me, I care a lot, because it shows me many things on the part of the publisher and its writers, until they do something better with Amora the Enchantress, a character that I will always like, whatever happens and I will defend. I will believe very little in those feminist ideas and in what Marvel pretends to preach with its female characters, because or they are all, or only are a few chosen.

    You can say whatever you want, but this is what I think and I will continue thinking unless I see or notice a real change, you may not share my arguments or my opinions, but I respect your right to say them, just as I hope that you and everyone respects what I can say.

    And as for the last issue of Captain Marvel, that for once you see something fairly decent in terms of a confrontation and an intelligent strategy on the part of Amora, does not mean too much (it's the most you'll get from me, saying something positive).
    As i said in my first post, the fact that you can single out some characters that have gotten a lot of development (and as was pointed out previously, it's not really comparable to Enchantress because they are the heroes, who generally do get more focus and development than the villains) means nothing, absolutely nothing, because there are just as many if not more from the same era that haven't been seen in decades, or are trotted out for a guest appearance every 5 to 10 years or so if they're lucky. Characters like Black Widow etc. are the exception, not the rule, and if you look at the big picture, Amora hasn't had it so bad compared to some. She's at least still being used on occasion, it could be a lot worse. also, some of the characters you list have had long dry spells of disuse. Like i said, it happens to all characters that popularity waxes and wanes, and just because she may be in a dry spell now dooesn't mean it will always be that way, but that doesn't mean you can't have soe happiness with small appearances in a dry spell. And the notion that because they are not focusing on Amora specifically so therefore Marvel doesn't care about their female characters is absurd. They have only so many characters they can reasonably focus on at any one time. That she got overlooked in favor of some others doesn't change their intent.

    Believe it or not, I'm trying to be helpful here, even if I am being blunt. Your extreme glass half empty outlook when it comes to Amora will only lead to continual disappointment. If you try, just TRY, to be a little more optimistic and look for the silver lining, I bet you will be happier. I mean, Carol doesn't exactly have a stellar rogues gallery, so what if this is them trying to remedy that by filling it out some more? and Amora's appearance here leads to more appearances in her book? that would be good, wouldn't it?
    Last edited by Raye; 06-16-2019 at 11:03 AM.

  10. #370
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    As i said in my first post, the fact that you can single out some characters that have gotten a lot of development (and as was pointed out previously, it's not really comparable to Enchantress because they are the heroes, who generally do get more focus and development than the villains) means nothing, absolutely nothing, because there are just as many if not more from the same era that haven't been seen in decades, or are trotted out for a guest appearance every 5 to 10 years or so if they're lucky. Characters like Black Widow etc. are the exception, not the rule, and if you look at the big picture, Amora hasn't had it so bad compared to some. She's at least still being used on occasion, it could be a lot worse. also, some of the characters you list have had long dry spells of disuse. Like i said, it happens to all characters that popularity waxes and wanes, and just because she may be in a dry spell now dooesn't mean it will always be that way, but that doesn't mean you can't have soe happiness with small appearances in a dry spell. And the notion that because they are not focusing on Amora specifically so therefore Marvel doesn't care about their female characters is absurd. They have only so many characters they can reasonably focus on at any one time. That she got overlooked in favor of some others doesn't change their intent.

    Believe it or not, I'm trying to be helpful here, even if I am being blunt. Your extreme glass half empty outlook when it comes to Amora will only lead to continual disappointment. If you try, just TRY, to be a little more optimistic and look for the silver lining, I bet you will be happier. I mean, Carol doesn't exactly have a stellar rogues gallery, so what if this is them trying to remedy that by filling it out some more? and Amora's appearance here leads to more appearances in her book? that would be good, wouldn't it?
    It's not easy on these times to be so optimistic, it's really hard for me to change my mind because of personal problems not related with this.

    This is just a fun hobby, nothing more but for one time, I would really love to see something good, something that for once, they focused on her 55 years of history on Marvel Comics, on one really good story focused for first time on her.

    I understand that you are trying to be helpful, I understand but it's hard to accept things like the recent ones, it's not good and makes her not redeemable in any way, I hate involutions, I want evolutions.

  11. #371
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    I think Amora should move away from Asgard-related stories if she is to become more active.
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  12. #372
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_1981 View Post
    It's not easy on these times to be so optimistic, it's really hard for me to change my mind because of personal problems not related with this.

    This is just a fun hobby, nothing more but for one time, I would really love to see something good, something that for once, they focused on her 55 years of history on Marvel Comics, on one really good story focused for first time on her.

    I understand that you are trying to be helpful, I understand but it's hard to accept things like the recent ones, it's not good and makes her not redeemable in any way, I hate involutions, I want evolutions.
    I think everyone wants that for their faves, and when it happens, it can be great, sure. The problem is that you seem to be looking at every story, seeing it's not that, and then deciding it's garbage because it's not what you wanted, because you are looking at what didn't happen rather than what did. I just think that if you keep doing that, you're in for years of disappointment, because her profile right now just isn't high enough to get the sort of development you want, unless some writer comes along that just has a passion for her, but that's a real gamble. I also like a bunch of characters that don't get a lot of attention, or just get it every once in a while. With those characters, I just have to find joy in the moments they do get. hopefully they're good appearances, sure, having them appear in a crap story is not great when the appearances are so few and far between, I get that. But one story won't ruin things forever. but I have been checking up on this thread off and on for years now, and it's not just WotR, it's every time she appears that I see you do this exact same thing. You have these exceptionally high, and frankly unrealistic, expectations about what you want, they are not met, and you're disappointed. Every time. Even if the appearance is actually average to good, if you were to judge it by what it is rather than what it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravin' Ray View Post
    I think Amora should move away from Asgard-related stories if she is to become more active.
    I think she can still have a part to play in Asgard stuff, it's just that it appears right now is not that time, or at least not any more than Malekith's other lieutenants. But what I said above does hold true, Carol has a very poor rogues gallery, while Thor has a pretty good one. He could stand to lose a couple without it impacting things much. So maybe it's time for Carol to borrow Amora from the Asgardians, even if it's a shared kinda thing. Amora could be one of her higher tier bad guys instead of lost in the shuffle in Asgard, while also allowing them to explore a different side of her.

  13. #373
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I think everyone wants that for their faves, and when it happens, it can be great, sure. The problem is that you seem to be looking at every story, seeing it's not that, and then deciding it's garbage because it's not what you wanted, because you are looking at what didn't happen rather than what did. I just think that if you keep doing that, you're in for years of disappointment, because her profile right now just isn't high enough to get the sort of development you want, unless some writer comes along that just has a passion for her, but that's a real gamble. I also like a bunch of characters that don't get a lot of attention, or just get it every once in a while. With those characters, I just have to find joy in the moments they do get. hopefully they're good appearances, sure, having them appear in a crap story is not great when the appearances are so few and far between, I get that. But one story won't ruin things forever. but I have been checking up on this thread off and on for years now, and it's not just WotR, it's every time she appears that I see you do this exact same thing. You have these exceptionally high, and frankly unrealistic, expectations about what you want, they are not met, and you're disappointed. Every time. Even if the appearance is actually average to good, if you were to judge it by what it is rather than what it isn't.



    I think she can still have a part to play in Asgard stuff, it's just that it appears right now is not that time, or at least not any more than Malekith's other lieutenants. But what I said above does hold true, Carol has a very poor rogues gallery, while Thor has a pretty good one. He could stand to lose a couple without it impacting things much. So maybe it's time for Carol to borrow Amora from the Asgardians, even if it's a shared kinda thing. Amora could be one of her higher tier bad guys instead of lost in the shuffle in Asgard, while also allowing them to explore a different side of her.
    I know, and I understand that it is not a healthy practice that only hurts me. I understand what you want to tell me, but also understand that it is not easy and that I have been waiting for something good for a long time (since 2002), I know that I analyze everything I see and that I have too high expectations, but I hope someone from the editorial when he/she has to use the character, they did it really well because I expect a continuity and coherence that I do not understand why the writer of the moment, decides to ignore to fit into his/her story without caring about the recent story of the character or that the previous writer did something completely different, I don't like things out of context/out of character, if you follow a path, continue through it, but do not change things or make the character seem something that is not, because you only hurt her (for that create a new one or use another that fits in it ) and then a new writer has to arrive to correct those mistakes. It is difficult to accept things as they are.

    Really and I wish someone from Marvel would have answered me, on Twitter or by email and for more than 6 months nobody has done it and that has not made me feel anything right, because I have felt ignored, I do not understand why nobody is able to answer , I do not write them continuously but at least once a month, it would have been nice to know someone's opinion or to give me an answer no matter what kind, but an answer.

    I guess in the end, this should be one of those occasions when only time will tell, but I do not want to wait too long, I'm not so young and in the end, the things that you like, the next day it may be that lose interest in favor of something else.

    What should be very clear is that Amora The Enchantress is my favorite Marvel character and hopefully one day things change and that writer appears who does justice and respect her once and for all.



    PD: Sorry for the late to answer, I was so busy until now.

  14. #374
    Astonishing Member Charlie_1981's Avatar
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    Anyone have the thought that Marvel clearly are not treating well The Enchantress?

    I can't read yet Captain Marvel 7 but I saw some pics around internet that make me not feel good with her portrayal.
    Last edited by Charlie_1981; 06-20-2019 at 03:41 AM.

  15. #375
    Mighty Member GodThor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie_1981 View Post
    Anyone have the thought that Marvel clearly are not treating well The Enchantress?

    I can't read yet Captain Marvel 7 but I saw some pics aroung internet that make me not feel good with her portrayal.
    yeah, she was shitted on heavily (pardon the word).

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