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  1. #256
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Silver Quickly View Post
    Plus it's pretty clear that these past selves are really truly not real, even by Loki standards. These past selves are the big lies he tells himself. Really, it's that he tells himself that he is both the same as these versions of himself and that he's not. He's confronted with the awful past version of himself that did awful things just for entertainment (viking), the present self that killed Kid Loki, and the future self that would kill ... everything. Present Loki is basically not any of those versions of himself, and they're his biggest fears and a fantastic excuse to give up on himself.

    But the big refrain in that issue is that these are all lies he tells himself. Pleasant lies, no less. So the lie he's telling himself right now is LOKI MUST DIE.

    How I read it is that he actually believed he was sacrificing himself in this one last big heroic thing that would actually kill him (no norns -- his fate is up to him, so it probably doesn't matter that he's not in the book of death because the rules are broken) but then he survived. As soon as he realizes he survived, he sticks with convincing himself that dying was the right thing to do and in fact the only way to fix things. He doesn't want to deal with his past and he definitely doesn't want to deal with his possible future. His survival just proved that he can't die a hero, so he's doubled down on that idea and so suicide is the only worthwhile thing he can do right now. But that's a comforting lie.

    It's not about compromise or synthesis or reconciliation. That's what got him here. It's about accepting that a different sort of Loki can still be the "sharpening stone." Not honing through battle -- that's how swords are dulled. But first he has to stop lying to himself that there's only one way out of this little pickle.


    Yeah, like i said in my post "Why does the fact that there must always be a Loki have to mean that Loki always has to be a bad guy?" He absolutely can be Thor's sharpening stone without being the bad guy. And even if there needs to always be a bad guy to face off against Thor, why does it HAVE to be him? If Jane can take up Thor's mantle, or that of a Valkyrie, why can't Malekith or someone take up Loki's? I'd argue he already has, really. No he hasn't taken on his name, but he's certainly taken on his old role, and the whole bit with him hiding behind Loki's face in issue 1 of WotR really reinforced that.

    His big problem does seem to be this depression he's found himself in. If you go back and look at Aaron's run, particularly the latest volume, with the idea that throughout Loki is actually pretty depressed, his actions make a lot more sense. Loki could have solved so many problems just by going to Thor and/or Freyja for help. But it seems like he'd convinced himself he's not deserving of help, or that they hate him and would not be willing (granted, their behaviour towards him kinda reinforced this belief. I'm not saying they weren't justified, but still.) hence him thinking he needed to trick Thor into helping him and stuff. But I bet that despite their big talk, they would have helped if he had asked. Look how Freyja has taken his death, she didn't want him gone, she wanted him to be better. Hell, after the Hel arc, Thor WANTED HIM TO STAY, (not for the best reasons but still) he totally would have helped if he had given a little time, but Loki left anyway. He was *this close* to having the family he wanted, but he threw it away as soon as he got close to having it. In hindsight, it's likely because he had convinced himself they'd be better off without him, or that he did not deserve their companionship. It's just it wasn't really apparent at the time, so much, I mean we could see he sulked sometimes and was sad about some things he did, but i guess i kind of assumed it was more of a situational thing. But I guess that's how depression works in real life too, it's hard to notice it in someone else until it gets real bad, or you just kinda handwave away what you do see as being due to something else.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-20-2019 at 06:03 PM.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    an old french cover with Loki!

    Attachment 81500
    This cover is sweet. Gotta admit, wouldn't mind that Loki Storm romance now.


    I guess I don't see reconciliation as really a compromise so much as accepting what parts of you can't change and figuring out how to make them work for you or at least being aware of them.

    Being too accepting of those faults is very dangerous because it is so easy to slip back into old habits.

    The thing is, I think Loki is mentally unwell. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think that helps explains why he keeps falling back into these patterns, why he goes for such extreme options, etc. I don't think it makes him a weaker character and I don't think it's an easy writing device when used correctly, though it can be cheap and troublesome when it isn't.

    Also, I question if Loki is begging for death because he thinks he deserves it or if it doesn't just really fucking hurt. He is slowly being digested and if he really didn't die or lose control of his magic until just as the Valkyries came in, that by itself was a long time. If you consider that the WotR is taking place over at least a week or two, dear God, what is happening with Loki?

  3. #258
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    It's because he thinks he deserves it, everything leading up to it reinforces that point. The whole issue was him telling himself how awful he was. They wouldn't have spent an entire issue having him berate himself if the real problem was that he was in physical pain. That he happens to be in a physically painful situation is only relevant because it makes him coming back more of an obstacle for him to overcome. It may also help act as a motivator, if his choices to end it are death, which is what he wants, but he can't die, and living, he may choose to live in order to end the pain. But i think he made the decision he had to die before he ever woke up, and the real problem is more mental. If this was just about physical pain, as soon as he escapes that situation, his struggle is over. Mental/emotional, he's still got something to motivate him.

    And I just really don't see him as anything but depressed. Which is still mentally unwell, technically, but relatively minor. I think is plenty, when coupled with his past, to explain everything he's done, he doesn't need psychosis on top of that. And i'm not saying that out of some ableist type of thinking, i just don't see it on the page, is all. He's had a couple episodes in particularly stressful situations, most notably the end of Agent of Asgard, but that seems to have been a temporary break. I don't think it was ever more than a passing thing, or it was more comic book type representations of inner thoughts. Depression can also be fixed, or at least managed, a more easily than more severe mental illness, so it will be easier for him to get better or push past the bad thoughts. I also think him being actually delusional would be too much of a handwave to excuse away his actions. I think he has to take responsibility for the things he's done, not just brush it aside with an insanity plea.

    And I don't think he will be spending the entire series in Laufey's gut. Laufey is missing from the bad guys lineup in later issues of the series solicits, and issue 3 is the one with the Loki variant cover. So I think he will get out before the end, possibly as soon as the next issue. I don't think it will be him escaping right at the finale, they just can't mention his part in the solicits because it would be a spoiler. With the new information gained with the latest issues, I suspect he will end up with Thor etc. in Jotunheim, and then they go back to Midgard at the finale. It's actually a really good group to be the ones to rescue him. (and Thor, of course) Besides Thor being there, there's also his latest teamup buddy, Wolverine, and Spider-Man who, well it was a terrible issue but he did still think Loki had just repaid a favor for him... as for the rest, i think Cap, Iron Fist and Luke Cage are probably among the best ones to be there, likely to give him a chance.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-20-2019 at 08:24 PM.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by mogwen View Post
    an old french cover with Loki!

    Attachment 81500
    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    It's because he thinks he deserves it, everything leading up to it reinforces that point. The whole issue was him telling himself how awful he was. They wouldn't have spent an entire issue having him berate himself if the real problem was that he was in physical pain. That he happens to be in a physically painful situation is only relevant because it makes him coming back more of an obstacle for him to overcome. It may also help act as a motivator, if his choices to end it are death, which is what he wants, but he can't die, and living, he may choose to live in order to end the pain. But i think he made the decision he had to die before he ever woke up, and the real problem is more mental. If this was just about physical pain, as soon as he escapes that situation, his struggle is over. Mental/emotional, he's still got something to motivate him.

    And I just really don't see him as anything but depressed. Which is still mentally unwell, technically, but relatively minor. I think is plenty, when coupled with his past, to explain everything he's done, he doesn't need psychosis on top of that. And i'm not saying that out of some ableist type of thinking, i just don't see it on the page, is all. He's had a couple episodes in particularly stressful situations, most notably the end of Agent of Asgard, but that seems to have been a temporary break. I don't think it was ever more than a passing thing, or it was more comic book type representations of inner thoughts. Depression can also be fixed, or at least managed, a more easily than more severe mental illness, so it will be easier for him to get better or push past the bad thoughts. I also think him being actually delusional would be too much of a handwave to excuse away his actions. I think he has to take responsibility for the things he's done, not just brush it aside with an insanity plea.

    And I don't think he will be spending the entire series in Laufey's gut. Laufey is missing from the bad guys lineup in later issues of the series solicits, and issue 3 is the one with the Loki variant cover. So I think he will get out before the end, possibly as soon as the next issue. I don't think it will be him escaping right at the finale, they just can't mention his part in the solicits because it would be a spoiler. With the new information gained with the latest issues, I suspect he will end up with Thor etc. in Jotunheim, and then they go back to Midgard at the finale. It's actually a really good group to be the ones to rescue him. (and Thor, of course) Besides Thor being there, there's also his latest teamup buddy, Wolverine, and Spider-Man who, well it was a terrible issue but he did still think Loki had just repaid a favor for him... as for the rest, i think Cap, Iron Fist and Luke Cage are probably among the best ones to be there, likely to give him a chance.
    Laufey just being totally absent from the hero lineup is pretty glaring, especially given what he did in issue #1. It could just be the artists not knowing how to incorporate him into the art, especially given his size and that Loki as a Frost Giant representative is out of the question.

    If Thor and Loki are rescued in #3, that gives us an issue of some recovery, though I do have to wonder just what state Loki would be in. If he gets out via the hammer, then a magical recovery would be perfectly explainable. But given that he's already well digested after a few hours, is he just going to be goo? But it all depends on how he gets out.

    I think Loki's mental state is much more glaring than we give it credit for. This isn't just our current Loki, but every single Loki who came before him. They all count and they don't paint a rosy picture. The current one being among the more stable is pretty bad.

  5. #260
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    No, it's not. It's not a bunch of different Lokis rattling inside his head, it just isn't, he doesn't have DID, or have them as schizophrenic delusions. He would have not been surprised to see ye olde viking Loki, or thought it had to have been time travel, because he'd be in his head all the time. They all count, as in they helped shape who he is now, but they're in the past, they will remain in the past, but he does remember being like them. He's just changed, they're memories, that's all. He now feels guilt over what he did as those past versions of himself, so it's kind of coming to the surface of his mind. But when the past versions of himself come up, it's not literal fragments of his personality, it's just a representation of how he remembers himself in the past. It's no different than Thor having his young viking self back in the day, it's just that Thor doesn't have the ability to conjure up that image as an illusion, Loki does. Which he did ONE TIME, because he was messing with Jane. Once, he did it ONCE. If it was that he literally had all of them rattling around inside his head all the time battling for control, we would have seen more evidence of that before and since, in internal captions at the very least, and we haven't. You don't give a character a mental problem that severe and not make it explicit. Did he lose control with the illusions? a bit, maybe, but he may have also just been trying to fuck with Jane, or he gave the illusions some autonomy, we know he can do that, cus "Kid Loki", and they went off the rails a bit, more of a magical slip. I don't think it is a sign that he is literally insane, I just don't. I think he is perfectly sane... but with some emotional problems. And again, what he had this issue, i think he gets a free pass on because dying. whether it was something afterlife related (which could explain how he saw the future) or a pure product of his mind, near death experiences are a thing, it doesn't make him delusional.

    And if they can fit Sindr on the covers, they can fit Laufey. I just dug through the solicits on Comixology. My best guess at the moment is that Laufey goes down first, to Thor and Loki. Then it seems to me the Queen of Angels may be next in Asgardians of the Galaxy, to Angela. Then Ares, who seems to be joining Team Malekith, bad boy, in Journey Into Mystery to Balder (and baby sister), Sindr in Agents of Atlas, Enchantress in Captain Marvel, but she is mentioned in the solicit for issue 5 of the main book so we know she won't be killed or anything. so each sibling gets a hand in bringing down a lieutenant, before, i presume, they gather for the showdown with Malekith. It also appears Venom is freed sometime before the end since he is standing with Carol's team on the final Strike Force one shot. That leaves Dario Agger, Ulik, Enchantress and Kurse for the final showdown, assuming the lieutenants are beaten one by one before the final issue or two. I think both Mjolnir and the Naglfar Armada will come into play then.

    As for what Loki will be like when Laufey is killed, assuming that's how he gets out... dunno, magic. But presumably they own't have to carry him around in a bucket, that'd be gross.

    I also suspect it is Loki that is responsible for the Destroyer arm. We have seen no mention of it in the leadup, but we do know Loki was the last person to control the Destroyer. It was never explained how he got the Destroyer, or where it's missing arm was. We can only assume he salvaged it along wit the Bifrost fragment when Asgard was destroyed. I suspect Loki took the arm as well, but just never re-attached it because he was saving it for Thor. and if the rescue happens in Jotunheim near Laufey's castle, it may be nearby for him to retrieve.

    *edit- actually, wait, having a closer look at the Avengers cover, Thor has Mjolnir at his belt. so there you go, worthy again. I guess it may come into play earlier than I first thought. But he is, bizarrely, using the other hammers to fight with. And the cover for the Omega issue has one of the golden hammers. so either this is a mistake of some kind, or he... gives it away.

    Though... July issue of Thor says "To end the War of the Realms, Thor made a sacrifice that will leave him forever changed. Now he must face the choices he’s made" and in the final issue of WotR it says "Out of options, the God of Thunder makes a sacrifice that will leave him forever changed. But will it be enough? And what heroes may fall in his wake?" so it sounds like he makes a call to do something bad for the greater good, and a hero may die because of it. So even if he is worthy again for a moment, he may lose it again soon after because of this decision, whatever it is. Interesting that taking an ends justify the means approach is usually Loki's thing, but here it's Thor doing it. maybe. little vague. having the real cover of July's issue of Thor would be so much help here.

    Sorry, I'm just here digging through solicit trying to put the pieces together, I know i'm rambling and editing a bunch of stuff in.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-21-2019 at 01:09 AM.

  6. #261
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    I do agree that his near death experience isn't a total delusion. What it's exact nature is is a mystery, but it certainly isn't just a hallucination brought on by him being slowly digested alive.

    As for his mental state, well, he was the one to come up with the most complicated suicide plan ever. I don't think he's schizophrenic or anything, but anyone's whole resurrection plan is essentially just killing themselves over and over again isn't exactly thinking clearly, especially since there was always a chance that he just wouldn't be resurrected. And then you have Young Avengers where his guilty conscious almost kills them all, plus the end of AoA where story!Loki acts particularly manic, and then you have his continuing depressive episodes throughout Aaron's run.

    As for the deaths of Malekith's generals, Kurse fights Spiderman on one of the covers. He's certainly not going to kill her, but he will free her from the Kurse armor most likely.

    Thor might have to kill Jane to get her her power up, or that line might even just apply to him giving Loki the hammer. That would be a huge step for him to part with it, but it would also be him forgiving Loki and making some effort to move past the past hurts.

    I guess my thing about his physical condition when he's taken out of Laufey, well, is Thor going to trust him if he just pops out and looks fine? Loki has been keeping himself alive with some powerful magic, which the stomach acid is working very, very well against. A part of me wonders if Loki isn't also going to need to use the Destroyer armor to regain some lost limps of his own. We can guess that his legs were pretty mangled just from Laufey eating him, while he appears to have lost his right arm in the stomach. The only arm we know he has is the left, ironically the one Thor is missing. The only thing that makes me doubt this theory is that he appears to have his arms and legs on all of the covers slated for after WotR. He could be using his magic to hide this, though.

    My other theory is that Thor is trying to get the hammer to Loki in the hope that it will heal him. Even if Loki isn't dying, if he's left a burnt, nearly limbless mass of nerves, death might sound better.

  7. #262
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    People don't have to be delusional beyond the sort of thinking depression can cause to be suicidal. And especially in his case, where he damn well knows what will happen when he does "kill" himself. He didn't need to be particularly depressed or delusional at the end of Siege, because he knew that, assuming all went to plan, he'd be fine. And "over and over" is actually just one time so far. He's died and come back a few times, yeah, but only once has it been intentional. (again, I have never read what happened in Agent of Asgard as a real death, just him being a drama queen. But if you do, ok fine, twice. Still not exactly 'over and over' ) Planning to kill yourself while expecting nothingness or the afterlife to follow VS expecting, with solid evidence and planning to back it up because you are a sorcerer god who literally talked to the goddess of death, to come back good as new after arranging for your death are quite different things.

    As for this particular time, we don't know what he hoped to accomplish, exactly. He may have just wanted it all to end, at least for this version of himself, or he may have had further plans with a new backup copy ready to take over. The former case, all he needs to be is depressed, the latter doesn't need any disordered thinking at all beyond being a bit desperate, because if that's the case then there are arrangements he has made to come back good as new. I suspect the former. I think he may not have started the day wanting to die, but when faced with choosing between his life and Freyja's, he chose hers. And then he was faced with all his negative thoughts that convinced him it was right that he die. But again, he doesn't need to be delusional beyond the lies depression tells, and I have never denied that he is depressed here. I don't think that he made a new backup of his mind, or had any particular plans to continue with his current consciousness. I think he intended to have the current version just die, and maybe the next version would have better luck. Yeah, a new backup was a possibility I considered earlier, but I think it's not what happened now, after having read the latest issue and thinking things over.

    And yes, in Young Avengers his guilt was out of control... But guilt is not exactly crazy in his case, he has plenty to rightly feel guilty about, feeling guilt is more sane than not in his case. He is right to feel guilt. It's the fact that he subconsciously attacked himself because of it that was bad. But I think most people do, that's what guilt is, essentially. It's just that most people don't also happen to be powerful sorcerers, which allows their guilty conscience to literally take form. So is this a sanity problem or a magic problem? And he had a manic episode at the end of Agent of Asgard, something I have never denied. I see those as both temporary states though, which can happen. People can live their entire lives perfectly sane and then have an episode brought on by stress or trauma etc. that makes them temporarily delusional, and then they go back to normal. It is a real thing that happens. He may be a bit more prone to it than most, but it's still not something I see as his default state, his usual behaviour doesn't back that up, those incidents are the exceptions, not the rule.

    He does make unusual choices when it comes to solving problems, but I think that has more to do with a combination of his history as a villain, and old habits dying hard, and the fact that he won't ask anyone for help, whether it is out of pride or depression, making him think he has no other choice.

    Now, all that being said. The Valhalla situation also supports the depression angle because once he finds out that he was destined for Valhalla, which I don't think he ever intended, then that might be the kick in the pants he needs to pull himself together, since it would be confirmation that he is not as awful as he has led himself to think. The question is how he would find this out. He is clever, so I think could figure it out.... IF he knew about the Valkyries. But he doesn't know the Valkyries are dead, so he is lacking the essential piece of the puzzle to figure this out. He's got to learn the Valkyries are dead at a bare minimum.

    I don't think this would be as satisfying if Loki didn't have a hand in getting himself out of the situation. If he just sits around waiting to be rescued, that's not very interesting. It also spoils the rebirth symbolism and deprives him of personal revenge against Laufey. So I think I want him to get out of this on his own, or at least help. I just don't know exactly how that can happen. As for Thor trusting him, Thor is mostly bluster. When it comes right down to it, he loves Loki. He said as much earlier. I think he would just be happy Loki wasn't actually dead, assuming he had been told about Loki's death.

    And while Loki can give Thor the Destroyer arm, assuming he has it, (which seems likely considering he had the rest of it) the rest of the armor is presumably still with the Asgard's Reach, not in Jotunheim with the arm. So while I could see him piloting the armor until he recovered, it's just not here for him to do that.

    And as I think about it, I don't think Jane will have to die to become a Valkyrie, because otherwise Brunnhilde and the rest could just continue on as normal. But it does sound like he has to make a decision that he will find hard to live with. It could just be giving up Mjolnir, but we know that won't change him 'forever' even if we just consider it in the context of Aaron's run only, because King Thor has it in the future. It also doesn't explain the ominous bit about heroes dying in his wake.

    Forgot about Spider-Man. So many tie ins. Ok, so Enchantress, Ulik and Agger at the end, bare minimum, in addition to Malekith himself. But it may be more, since we don't know how any of the confrontations in the tie ins will go.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-22-2019 at 10:27 AM.

  8. #263
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Thinking it over a little, I hope he just kind of wills himself back together with magic. I think the main thing he has to overcome is mental, so I'd be fine if the physical side didn't have a whole lot of explanation beyond 'magic', he is one of the most powerful sorcerers in the MU, after all. BUT I don't think it should be easy, and don't want it to be a good as new situation. I'm picturing something like he pulls himself together, and is holding the pieces together with all the willpower he has. If he loses concentration his arm will fall off kind of thing, and there are visible wounds and gaps, he'd still be covered with gore afterwards, so this won't be a total handwave everything is fine situation. He will get better, not picturing this as his new reality, but he needs time to heal. It might leave scars that he may gloss over with an illusion. The Valhalla revelation can come before or after this, but after seems a bit more likely because it would be hard for him to learn of the Valkyries inside Laufey. It would also be more impactful if as he is figuring it out, the others are as well, so they understand the implications as much as he does, and they know its not a trick or lie on his part. Then he can take Thor and the others to his little mouse hole, get Thor suited up with his new arm, shower for about 12 hours straight, grab his coat and a change of clothes, and make arrangements from there. Maybe take his place as king of Jotunheim and see if the frost giants will go along with that and he can call them off. Or he and Thor head to the Sun to fetch Mjolnir, now aided by Loki's rather impressive forcefields able to withstand the sun itself that he used with Cap in Avengers.

    As for the bit with Thor, it may be that he decides to do the bad thing, whatever it is, so that Loki doesn't have to. Loki's big problem is that he feels like he keeps being forced to do bad things and be the villain when he doesn't want to, even if his reasons are good. So it may be that something unsavory has to be done, and Loki is going to do it, and Thor may decide to save him from that at least this one time. To help get him back on track. He loses Mjolnir in the process, but saves his brother from being the villain again. Loki did say in Asgardians of the Galaxy that "the winners will be measured by their capacity for awfulness." and since it was Loki saying it, it kind of implied he would be the one to do the awful thing, summoning the Naglfar Armada. So that may be it, Thor blows the horn rather than Loki. Dead gods rise, 'unexpected allies' the ones who died defending Midgard, including all the Valkyries, still have their souls so they are not mindless, but the rest? They may kill indiscriminately.

    But that's just how I'd do it, there is nothing in the books right now that points one way or the other how this will go, really. All we know is that he lives, and seems pretty much as he was before physically, so presumably it is not another reincarnation situation.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-22-2019 at 02:41 PM.

  9. #264
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Podcast interview with Kibblesmith where he talks Loki, among other things: http://www.warrocketajax.com/2019/04...l-kibblesmith/

    Kibblesmith comes in 38 minutes in

    points of note:

    Seems to confirm it will be funny

    Says it may be Marvel's fastest resurrection

    Says Aaron was building to Loki's death for a long time and it has 'a lot of resonance' and that he will be building off that

    Same Loki, not a reset button, no reboots

    Begins with the fallout of WotR

    Loki has a new status quo and responsibilities

    "always on the path to redemption"

    Explores what it's like for Loki to get a new status quo when he is historically defined by rebellion

    Says it's just about Loki in the Marvel universe, it's not a finite story or 'hook' so it's open ended and can go anywhere

    They talk about how wild it is that Loki has fans rooting for him now, and that they're there for it

    He says he hopes the character will be recognizable and relatable to the fans of the movie version...

    Resisted the temptation to yell, drunk with power, "I can kill you Hawkeye, it's been done before!" when he was interviewing the Avengers cast for the Late Show.

    Back on the movies vs comics, when asked if he was just going to watch Ragnarok and ape that, he said no, that he was shooting for a 'synthesis' like the Grant Morrison 'unified theory of Batman' thing, so everyone can participate. That he's not writing for the new reader so much as he wants it to be welcoming to them. and that if anything he's writing more for the existing fans.

    Says he's read every Loki protagonist comic, JIM which he calls 'incredible' and deeply intimidating, YA, Agent of Asgard, Vote Loki mentioned by name

    he says let's NOT do politics, 'because that's your day job'

    And that he wants everything in those comics and Jason Aaron's Loki to be true and he's trying to tap into the core character that exists in all of those, and then marry all that plus some of the movie version together.

    Says they can get away with an 'elastic' take on the character because of so many different takes over the years

    Host asks about the relatively small number of Loki protagonist comics, and asks if he feels like he is in competition with the people who did some very well regarded books, like JiM. Says it is intimidating, but he has to 'step into the flow of the river' and that it's not so much a hard act to follow so much as he is inspired by it and hopes to live up to it. But he is interested in different things so it should stand on it's own. that's heavily paraphrased because he went on at some length, that part is probably best to listen to yourself.

    Talks about Hiddleston a bit, and his enthusiasm for his role.

    Fan questons, asks if he's a horns guy or a Simonson crown kinda guy, he says he's a horns guy. In part because he wants to embrace 'what the audience has recently defined him as' and says he's 'really sexy and dangerous' but also that he wants a sort of physical comedy that the horns can do, and he likes the horns for the sort of 'Lucifer components" as well. So basically it sounds as though he's given a lot of thought to horns vs no horns and has lots of reasons why he is pro-horns.

    Also describes Loki as "The Marvel Universe's dirtbag ex boyfriend"

    He is a fan of Ice Man, Mega Man version, not mutant version, and says he is creating a character reminiscent of that character for Loki. This says to me that there will almost definitely be some time spent in Jotunheim.

    hypothetical game of Jeopardy, who would win, Loki, Deadpool or T'Challa? He says Deadpool "because anyone can win Jeopardy"
    Last edited by Raye; 04-22-2019 at 05:29 PM.

  10. #265
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    This sounds interesting. I especially like that he's drawing from pretty much everything that came before but keeping it going as opposed to resetting/rebooting. I wouldn't mind seeing Loki going between Asgard, Midgard and Jotunheim. I am curious about his interactions with people. As much as I loved AoA, I do think it kept him a little isolated even though he had a close friend in Verity. Not a lot of people are clamouring to be his friend sure but I'd still love to see him around more than just his family. Which is funny because he already does this with Squirrel Girl and Kamala but that happens in their books which I have never read so seeing it first hand in his own book will be cool.
    Last edited by rpmaluki; 04-23-2019 at 01:04 AM.

  11. #266
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I would love to see him interacting with more people. not even friends necessarily, just some variety. Cus yeah, though I liked Verity, it was also very isolated. And he has a bunch to choose from that are already established, like Verity if she's still around, (was unclear) Dr Strange and Bats as more of a frenemy thing, (I know it was just Mephisto doing an illusion but i loved fake-Loki and Strange's interactions in Damnation) Zelma, Wolverine, Squirrel Girl and Nancy, Ms Marvel, the Young Avengers, Lorelei and Sigurd, and of course his family, especially his siblings. Lots to choose from! Also hey, make new connections. I think i would prefer existing characters though, because I fear another friend falling into limbo like Verity did.

    And yeah, was encouraged by a lot of what he said, and am very glad they are continuing with the current character development. I'm not saying i want him to stay in this place forever, just that I want to continue following this version as he continues his journey. After Agent of Asgard ended, i was a bit worried that it was just going to be neverending reboots for him, using the whole reincarnation thing, which isn't what i am interested in.

    The bit about exploring what his status quo means when he is historically defined by rebellion also intrigues me. He didn't really elaborate on that, so... it's intriguing. I assume it either means that Loki's new status quo places him in a position where he has nothing to rebel against, or if he does rebel he risks losing what he gained. Or something, i dunno.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-23-2019 at 12:58 AM.

  12. #267
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    I think the status quo comment has as much to do with him just not being a villain anymore as it does with wherever Aaron is leaving things. Loki hasn't been a villain for a long time, but for as much of that time, we've been waiting for him to go bad, especially in the first couple of years, there was just the feeling that we had better enjoy good Loki while we had him. So it sort of being set in stone that this is going to be his status quo for a while is a good sign for all of us. It's fun to think that we're just going to be able to enjoy this Loki and not have to worry that he's going to go bad.

    I mean, what is he exactly rebelling against this time? As long as he isn't trying to do some weird plot, most characters seem happy to let him do what he will. Freya and Odin love him and are accepting of his new role, his relationship with Thor seems to be improving, his relationship with his other siblings is fine and doing better, and unlike last time, we aren't seeing these stable relationships being based on total lies and deceptions and child murder.

    Not saying that there isn't a plot to be had here or anything, but it's certainly a place we haven't seen Loki in. It'll be fun!

    I'm also happy that they're trying to marry the comic and movie versions. I know the movie fans can be considered sort of the red headed stepchildren of the comic book community, but they have really helped with this new direction Loki is in. We might not always agree with them or appreciate the massive amount of porn they have contributed to the internet, but we love them.

  13. #268
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    But what I am saying isn't quite about that . He's spent thousands of years rebelling against his family, the status quo, and so on. Even beyond his particular motivations, that is a trickster's role in mythology. They are there to show that sometimes change is necessary even if it's hard, and they have to rebel against the status quo to do that. So what does it mean for him if his new status quo is basically getting everything he wanted? Normally, this would put a character in a sort of boring situation, because they have nothing left to strive for. But with Loki, it can actually be interesting because of the questions it raises about what he does next. What if he is no longer the punk rebel because the establishment he fought against actually listened and enacted the change he wanted? After so long fighting the establishment, does he now go along with it, happy to have gotten what he wanted? If so, what does he strive for now? What makes us want to follow him? Does he find something else to rebel against? This is the route Gillen went with. Swapped out rebelling against family for rebelling against fate. But if he beats fate, now what? Does he turn heel, and rebel against what he used to want because rebellion is his role? Rebel against the societal norms in the MU of what a hero is supposed to be like? Something else? If he is no longer a rebel, will he still feel like Loki? Or will it be that he feels like he has lost an important aspect of himself? That is why the new status quo is interesting. Rebellion is so integral to his character that to take that aspect away raises some interesting questions. It is also a bit risky because since it is so integral, it may damage the character to have it taken away if they are not careful, it could end up being like knocking out a load bearing wall in a house. They need to add some more supports to keep the house from collapsing. A lot of these questions can also be very meta because they are both what Loki wanted and what we wanted. So it may be used to kind of illustrate why characters in serial stories are always left with something to strive for, why they never quite achieve their goals. (at least not permanently) He's good with stories so he ought to know that giving the hero everything they want is usually the end of the story.

    And I am ok with them adding some elements from the movies, but I just hope it doesn't overwhelm what is there already. They are distinct characters in many ways, so...
    Last edited by Raye; 04-23-2019 at 02:00 PM.

  14. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by rpmaluki View Post
    This sounds interesting. I especially like that he's drawing from pretty much everything that came before but keeping it going as opposed to resetting/rebooting. I wouldn't mind seeing Loki going between Asgard, Midgard and Jotunheim. I am curious about his interactions with people. As much as I loved AoA, I do think it kept him a little isolated even though he had a close friend in Verity. Not a lot of people are clamouring to be his friend sure but I'd still love to see him around more than just his family. Which is funny because he already does this with Squirrel Girl and Kamala but that happens in their books which I have never read so seeing it first hand in his own book will be cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I would love to see him interacting with more people. not even friends necessarily, just some variety. Cus yeah, though I liked Verity, it was also very isolated. And he has a bunch to choose from that are already established, like Verity if she's still around, (was unclear) Dr Strange and Bats as more of a frenemy thing, (I know it was just Mephisto doing an illusion but i loved fake-Loki and Strange's interactions in Damnation) Zelma, Wolverine, Squirrel Girl and Nancy, Ms Marvel, the Young Avengers, Lorelei and Sigurd, and of course his family, especially his siblings. Lots to choose from! Also hey, make new connections. I think i would prefer existing characters though, because I fear another friend falling into limbo like Verity did.

    And yeah, was encouraged by a lot of what he said, and am very glad they are continuing with the current character development. I'm not saying i want him to stay in this place forever, just that I want to continue following this version as he continues his journey. After Agent of Asgard ended, i was a bit worried that it was just going to be neverending reboots for him, using the whole reincarnation thing, which isn't what i am interested in.

    The bit about exploring what his status quo means when he is historically defined by rebellion also intrigues me. He didn't really elaborate on that, so... it's intriguing. I assume it either means that Loki's new status quo places him in a position where he has nothing to rebel against, or if he does rebel he risks losing what he gained. Or something, i dunno.
    Having Loki build a supporting cast of his own and maybe getting a nemesis of his own that isn't his own dumb self would be really great to see, though so far such things haven't really stuck around. Bats has been around longer beyond Loki than Verity at this point. And after years now of The Odinson Family Drama Show, it would be nice for Loki to have a little corner of the universe that's mostly his.

    And the "new status quo" thing IS really interesting. From a certain angle, literally the ONLY thing that Loki has been doing since Siege is fighting the status quo and the seemingly inevitable entropy of returning to it. He's been fighting fate, sure, but more than that, he hasn't been fighting to be good, he's been fighting to be allowed to be good, if he so chose. Getting everything he thinks he wants kind of happened in AoA during Axis, and that was not great because it was still pigeonholing him. He is an agent of change, not of good or evil, though in a world where "good" is reactionary and conservative (not in a political way, in a fighting to preserve the status quo way) he tends toward evil -- because in that environment, change IS evil.

    So what happens when there's a status quo that he doesn't necessarily want to fight? What happens when suddenly Loki, agent of change, wants things to stay the same? Will he actually want them to stay the same or is he going to go all trickster / Spike and get bored? And if so, if he needs to shake things up, how can he upset the apple cart without falling right back to the old status quo?

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    I feel like we're getting a setup where Loki's is going to get that hammer and be tasked with protecting the realms. That's going to be his new responsibility. He won't be Thor, but he'll be stuck in a heroic role that is much more in the open than his normal thing.

    There could be some comedy found in this since Loki is pretty lazy when he wants to be. He likes his plots and schemes, but he also doesn't like working all the time. So, yeah, that would be rather funny.

    Also, I've been thinking about the Destroyer armor and all and it hit me, Loki wasn't just begging for death because of the pain or because he wanted to avoid that future just so he wouldn't be a villain any longer, but because he genuinely didn't want to cause universal destruction. He doesn't want to hurt people anymore. So knowing that he becomes the thrall of the Necrosword, would he even want to be saved at all? So I do question if this rescue will be his own doing or just something that happens because Thor or someone was going to kill Laufey anyways.

    And would Thor even want to take him to the Destroyer armor? Loki isn't dying, taking him to the armor would only be relieving him of pain and giving him a powerful suit of armor to play with. Does Thor trust Loki enough to do that?

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