Loki Appreciation 2019

[Prof. Aegis]

Loki 3 was great! Takes the book to the next stage. I like how he has more pages even though he's not fully sure how that works. I also liked how Loki knew he was going to have to compete for this, which completely surprised Then. It shows that even thought Then and Now are Eternity's kids, Loki is quite intelligent and sees the bigger picture beyond what most might.

His feeling a bit off when he comes back was interesting as it does give that sense of time being wobbly...but then, with Nightmare, we have to wonder, where the Hel, is Loki really? Did he really appear at Stark's tower, or is that a vision Nightmare constructed as that's where he saw Loki last?

And if so, is this connected to the House of Ideas?

Oh, and Frostii is going to get into sooo much trouble. I found it amazing that some of the Jotunhiem wanted to farm. As they see the benefits which shows they want to change...which can be good for Loki, if he hears of this and takes it to heart. However, Frostii keeping with the status, is only going to cause more problems.

[Raye]

Oh yeah, the stuff with Frosti was great, i completely forgot to mention that. I don't think when Loki gets back to Jotunheim that he'll be too pleased with Frosti, but I don't think Frosti will go down easy if he wants to take those Norn Stones back. Also the stuff with Megan, which gives us some idea of what Nightmare is capable of, and how it might be possible to beat him. That her parents don't remember Robyn implies that what he did is not restricted to just her mind, but he did actually alter reality. He altered a moment in the past, and it rippled forward in time, if he can do that with her, he can maybe do the same with Loki. But since we can be fairly certain the whole plot with Frosti and Drrf won't just be rendered obsolete because history got altered, either what loki is experiencing isn't actually real, or he manages to fix it. But if he's going to undo the damage Nightmare has done, some time travel will likely be necessary, because Nightmare is altering the past.

And given that Nightmare attacked Loki prior to him going to the House of Ideas, and they have history, i do think he actually did target Loki, and judging by solicits, it will take New York with him. so yes, I think this is really happening, and Stark Tower is the first place affected. It kind of has to be real, even if Now and Then may have nudged events along, if he is going to get a heroic story to tell, because he needs heroic deeds for that to work, and beating Nightmare and saving New York counts there.

[Rosebunse]

But Robyn was asleep when Nightmare targetted her. So I'm wondering if Loki is also dreaming this and what happens depends on how he reacts to this nightmare.

Also, Then and Now say that other heros have made these deals before, but it sounds more like the universe simply rewarded them or gave them more issues out of necessity. Of course, we know it's because they're popular comic book heros and Loki's remark about being older than Wolverine is also about Loki debuting as a character a full decade before Wolverine.

With this in mind, none of them have complained about having a headache or feeling out of it, so the question is, why is Loki having these issues?


Also, I still think the Loki in Aaron's book is King Loki. This is a Loki who never got his character development, who killed everything to make himself feel better.

[Riimi]

I adored this issue of Loki (more a little further below).

I decided I'm not crazy about how Aaron has handled Loki, so because of that (among other things) I decided not to buy the Thor book. I might get it at some point, but I might not. It sort of depends on how I hear it turns out. Part of the reason I decided not to read it was because I'm fairly certain that it is "our" Loki, way far in the future and gone homicidal. Loki's vision as he was dying in that issue of Thor points to that. No, I think Aaron just wanted an epic Thor vs. Loki fight and couldn't have one set in the present, so he set one in the future, which is always changing and can be undone. However, for there to be any actual gravitas to it, it has to be the same timeline that we've been following in his book.

I also argue that Kibblesmith has already diverged off of it in this third issue (released on the same day, rather funny). If the timeline had been that Loki was going to go evil again and destroy all of everything, then I think the goal of Eternity's children was to make it so that future didn't happen (because Eternity likes to exist and can't without a universe). The comment "One that not even he would dare return from" also points towards this imo, since we've gone into how there's always a Loki and the next one might be evil, just as the books have--a heroic Loki who dies might get reborn evil, but if it's in such a way that he doesn't return, then everything's safe. (They want to get rid of him once and for all, basically. They're just doing it in a very nice way (?)).

An implicit part of this contract appears to be that at least some pieces of fate are fixed. Otherwise, how is his death as a hero a sure thing? His book may be longer, but are the pages blank, or are they already written? So, he is once more /still a pawn of Fate, even if he doesn't know it yet. (The ability to change is an illusion).

Other notes: The pawn match I think matched that part of the interview where he was talking about Loki's evolution as a character. Note his pawn costume.

[Lambadelta]

I can see Eternity and his children trying to prevent the end of all things by hopefully making sure Loki stays dead but if the ending in Loki #1 has anything to go by, it looks like they have already failed in the sense that it still didn’t prevent the end of all things from coming true. The only difference is this time it’s not Loki who is the cause of it.

But overall there are two reason why I don’t think King Loki in Thor’s future is our current Loki.

The main reason being that I don’t think there is a fixed future for Loki because different writers will want different futures for Loki, some good, some neutral and yes some where he does become evil again. Loki is a creature of change where the character and literally be written however the writer wants and every writer will have different desires for where they take Loki and it will also have an impact on how future writers write Loki.

For example, Loki’s journey from JIM to WOTR had an impact of how Kibblesmith sees and writes Loki because of what came before he sees Loki as someone who is redeemable and someone who can he a hero.
King Thor’s future is more one of the many possibilities of where Loki’s character could end up but it’s not a sure thing. As I said I don’t think any Loki ending that anyone does is a fixed thing, not even Loki ending up as a hero.

The other reason is because Loki seen what he would become, I think that will or already has had an impact on the future changing. It’s very rare you see a character see his or her future and it sticks because by that character seeing it, you have already created the butterfly effect and that sets in the motion for change.

And of course you have the future in Loki which contradicts the future in King Thor.

[Snoop Dogg]

maybe aaron's trying to write the final thor vs loki story since no one will be able top thor using his own intestines to strangle the baby and hammer throw him into the sun

[Lambadelta]

But Robyn was asleep when Nightmare targetted her. So I'm wondering if Loki is also dreaming this and what happens depends on how he reacts to this nightmare.

Also, Then and Now say that other heros have made these deals before, but it sounds more like the universe simply rewarded them or gave them more issues out of necessity. Of course, we know it's because they're popular comic book heros and Loki's remark about being older than Wolverine is also about Loki debuting as a character a full decade before Wolverine.

With this in mind, none of them have complained about having a headache or feeling out of it, so the question is, why is Loki having these issues?


Also, I still think the Loki in Aaron's book is King Loki. This is a Loki who never got his character development, who killed everything to make himself feel better.

I think it might have something to do with Loki's own power of being a somewhat omniscient narrator and the fact he's the God of stories.

[Rosebunse]

maybe aaron's trying to write the final thor vs loki story since no one will be able top thor using his own intestines to strangle the baby and hammer throw him into the sun

OK, how the holy **** did I miss that part about the intestines until after I saw everyone talking about it? I didn't even think about it and my mind filled in that it was rope! WTF?! I mean, I absolutely love it to bits, but dammit!

Also, I really don't think we should think about the timelines too hard between King Thor and the current Loki book. Aaron is simply ending his story and using a timeline we have long supposed was basically obsolete due to other changes in the timeline. It's still a warning for Thor and Loki, but enough has happened to where I don't really think we need to worry too much, unless Aaron throws us a curve-ball.

That being said, Loki's God of Story status and his particular sort of forth wall breaking might be the important bit in Kibblesmith's story. As Lambadelta said, it almost seems like Then and Now are trying to kill Loki more than really deal with any threat.

A part of me wonders if what's happening is that Loki is being "physically" torn apart by these extra stories and the different versions that will be created can't reconcile with themselves as well as other characters can.

[Lambadelta]

I agree about Loki's God of story status and the fact that he's aware of the 4th wall will play a huge part of Loki's story going forward. Also Kibblesmith has mentioned about wanting to really play around with the rules in Marvel and what better way to do that than with the God of stories?

I think Now and Then are trying to deal with a threat and is trying to stop it by making Loki a hero and having him die a hero's end which hopefully would keep him dead. I'm not sure how that would work since Loki's name is no longer in the books of Hel which is the reason why he will be reincarnated or resurrected, unless he is granted permission into Valhalla. But overall we know from Loki #1 that the threat of the end hasn't gone, it's just that it's not in the same way.

[Karabaja]

So I read King Thor and I'm sad
Somehow, despite all, I think we'll get one last Thor/Loki team-up against the shared enemy.

[Raye]

Yeah, while I do think the goal here is to kill Loki and have him stay dead for once, I don't see it as being malicious or personally directed at Loki. I think they are trying to prevent what happened in King Thor, or something similar, but it doesn't work the way they hoped. Instead of preventing the destruction, they just pawn it off on another character. (Balder is my guess, as discussed previously) because the events are fixed, but how the universe gets there can change, or something like that. We had King Thor warning Thor to kill his brother in God of Thunder, and now we have Loki warning his past self (or attempting to, at least) of the same damn thing. It's repeating, but with different characters.

I think the broad strokes of events and the assorted key roles involved in those events are fixed, but who fills the roles and finer details of the events can change.

I adored this issue of Loki (more a little further below).

I decided I'm not crazy about how Aaron has handled Loki, so because of that (among other things) I decided not to buy the Thor book. I might get it at some point, but I might not. It sort of depends on how I hear it turns out. Part of the reason I decided not to read it was because I'm fairly certain that it is "our" Loki, way far in the future and gone homicidal. Loki's vision as he was dying in that issue of Thor points to that. No, I think Aaron just wanted an epic Thor vs. Loki fight and couldn't have one set in the present, so he set one in the future, which is always changing and can be undone. However, for there to be any actual gravitas to it, it has to be the same timeline that we've been following in his book.

I've been mostly cool with Aaron's take in the present, i could do with a bit less moping and all, but generally I've liked it. I'm just very disappointed that he seems to believe that it was just a temporary blip, and long term change is impossible for Loki. That's just not something that jives with my general beliefs about people, I strongly believe that everyone is capable of change, and that's part of why I like face turn stories so much... or hell, heel turn stories too, like Breaking Bad, because it goes both ways. But in general, the idea that a person's character is fixed and unchangeable is something I just don't believe. But this has made me wary of having Loki join the Avengers, I must say, even though I think Aaron has gone with the idea that in the present Loki is trying to do good.

I also argue that Kibblesmith has already diverged off of it in this third issue (released on the same day, rather funny). If the timeline had been that Loki was going to go evil again and destroy all of everything, then I think the goal of Eternity's children was to make it so that future didn't happen (because Eternity likes to exist and can't without a universe). The comment "One that not even he would dare return from" also points towards this imo, since we've gone into how there's always a Loki and the next one might be evil, just as the books have--a heroic Loki who dies might get reborn evil, but if it's in such a way that he doesn't return, then everything's safe. (They want to get rid of him once and for all, basically. They're just doing it in a very nice way (?)).

I am not worried that it will alter how Loki is written in the present, or that it is set in stone as far as the character goes. it's so far in the future, and alternate futures are a dime a dozen in the MU, that I do realize it is unlikely to have any real bearing on things in the present, and I agree that Kibblesmith does not seem to be using that future as his endpoint, even if he may be drawing from it some as the worst case scenario that has to be avoided. I just find it sad and disappointing that this is the takeaway message Aaron apparently wants to leave us with on his Thor run, is all.

Oh. and as for why Loki is getting headaches and disoriented when Wolverine and Spider-Man are not, I mean, this is literally his first day with this wonky time, they've had years to adjust.

I do find it interesting though that he'd lived over a thousand years at least, and he's only just now being offered this deal. So not every character gets the deal, it may in fact be pretty rare, and is only applicable to those characters where you really do have to wonder how it appears they are in two places at once. Now that Loki is a hero and the star of his own book, he finally gets the deal. But it also, as mentioned, seems to be coming with strings, as his death is part of the deal. I have to wonder what strings, if any, Wolverine and Spider-Man have.

[Rosebunse]

We did get mention of Baldur in this issue! But I still feel like if Kibblesmith was going to use him, we will have to start seeing more of him.

But I still don't think that Loki is really getting the deal here for the same reasons the others did. Yes, he's more popular and heroic than he's ever been, but at the same time, this all seems rather sinister and I'm not sure that there is a future they are really trying to prevent, because if that was the case, why no just be straightforward? Why lie and go through all this trouble?

[Raye]

While I don't think the deal with Wolverine and Spider-Man was done for the same reasons, I still suspect there are strings, and we will likely explore what those strings are when Loki and wolverine team up in issue 5. And I don't think it's sinister, I do think they have good intentions. It's just that Loki is collateral damage in this scenario... sort of. He gets to go out a hero, I think he'd prefer that to going out a villain. I suspect they can't be straightforward about it, they have to rely on the butterfly effect, and they're counting on Loki being the butterfly. But, as we saw int he flash forward, I don't think it worked out as well as they had hoped. Also, by being on the receiving end of someone doing something shady with good intentions, Loki may learn a lesson about doing that himself.

[Lambadelta]

We’re only three issues in and for the most part it’s been setting up Loki’s story. I mean we’ve only got a glimpse of the future and Loki himself is unaware. I don’t think we’ll get much on it until Loki himself, present Loki I mean, gets more involved. Kibblesmith has also said he hopes that Loki can last quite a while, so there’s plenty of time to bring Balder in.

Also, on Loki being disorientated. Yes, I suppose it could be because it’s his first day of the wonky timeline but I still like to think him being the God of Stories and his awareness of the 4th wall also has a lot to do with it and it makes sense going on interviews as well.

Both could be the case though.

It does seem he’s having some memory problems like still thinking that everyone doesn’t know about Kid Loki. I wonder if it’s only his memories that are wonky or others? This could actually cause some problems in the future if the latter is the case though.

Also the rebellion that is brewing amongst the Frost Giants in Loki #4 is probably against Frosti than it is Loki, although Loki is at fault for the whole mess really so hopefully he can come back and fix that.

[Raye]

Yes, the rebellion is likely against Frosti, given what we saw in issue 3. And it's likely where we will first see his being in 2 places at once abilities come into play, since he has to deal with Nightmare AND the rebellion/Frosti at the same time.

And I am still not sure he ever was the God of Stories, because I dunno if he was ever in a position to make that call, to just declare himself something else and get powers etc. that come associated with that. Trying to change on a personal level is one thing, but I dunno if just declaring a new title for yourself is really something that can work, I think a title/role like that has to be earned. It may be though, that what he goes through here may enable him to earn that title.