Loki Appreciation 2019

[rpmaluki]

I hate full on villain Loki because they tend to strip him even of the little that is redeemable about the character.

[Raye]

Ah Loki. Who’s popularity got big thanks to Tom Hiddleston.......which to be fair, Loki being full Villain was harder to justify......

Tho the face turn began before the first Thor movie ever hit the theaters. Not by a whole lot, but still. This turn away from being the villain started like 10 years ago. While yes, the movies boosted his popularity a lot, and some movie synergy entered the picture with his physical appearance, (under some artists more than others) and is likely responsible for him being good looking after he got aged up, in terms of general characterization, that owes much more to Kieron Gillen than it does to Hiddleston and the movies. I know Marvel is sometimes pretty big on movie synergy, but I don't think it is always the case that changes to the characters are done to match the movies like some people say. And Loki mostly managed to escape being hit with more than superficial synergy because when the first movie hit, he was literally a child in the comics. So there wasn't really an expectation that he suddenly start acting or looking like the movie version, no matter how popular he was, because they were being portrayed so drastically differently that there was just no way to make synergy work right then, short of just abruptly ending the Kid Loki story 6 months or so after it began. By the time he got aged up again a few years later, he had just done his whole invade NY thing in the movies, so was at his most villainous in the MCU, (but also most popular) but they kept him turning face in the comics anyway, even tho they incorporated a few aspects. (sort of appearance, and making him more of a momma's boy, mainly) By the time he got more sympathetic again in the movies, he was already an anti-hero in the comics, and most of the story reasoning for the turn can be traced back to Journey Into Mystery as the catalyst. It's not like it was a sudden change out of the blue, it had been building slowly for years. There is a reason Kid Loki keeps popping up in just about everything Loki has been a part of since JIM, and its because that story is mostly responsible for where he is at now, it is a hugely important story in terms of his present status.

Basically I think it is really reductive and dismissive of the work Kieron Gillen did to lay the turn at the feet of the movies, even if his popularity in the movies helped ensure the turn was more likely to stick. Sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine.

[rpmaluki]

Loki's face turn certainly came before the movies but I can't deny that TH's portrayal hasn't added a little more shelf life on our favourite frost giant "Odinson". He's averted so many "reboot" chances at this stage, Marvel will keep this going as long fans keep lapping it up, it doesn't matter on which side of the fandom people lean on, comics or movies, or both.

[Raye]

Yeah, I do think it helped the change stick for longer than it would have otherwise... But a lot of that is also down to getting lucky and having Gillen follow up JIM rather than someone else. Gillen left the door open for full on villain Loki to return at the end of JIM, and another writer might have done just that. But when he ended up writing Young Avengers and added Loki to the lineup, well, that kinda sealed his fate. Then Ewing, a friend of Gillen, followed up Young Avengers, so the ball kept rolling, and now it's to the point where you can't take it back without it being seen as a huge regression.

BTW just to be clear I don't have a problem with movie Loki, I just don't like it when people attribute Loki being an anti-hero moving towards full on good guy in the comics to the movies rather than its actual roots in the comics.

[rpmaluki]

I hear you. I guess I'm a little more flexible in that regard. I don't think the movies are responsible for his face turn at all but see the exposure as another spoke (Gillen, Ewing and Aaron being the others) in the wheel to maintain his face turn as opposed to cutting it short because a writer feels like it. It won't be so easy now to turn him back like flipping a switch because he's proven there's more milage in keeping this grey character around. Honestly, they could switch him back tomorrow if they wanted, without rhyme or reason but where would the fun be in that

[Raye]

that's true, I think more people likely checked out Agent of Asgard at the very least due to what they had seen in the movies, and if they hadn't, it may not have had enough reason for them to continue down that path, and sure, I do think the movies helped some. But at the same time, I just have found the whole story interesting on it's own merits, and it's sad to see some people (not referring to Decoy specifically here, it's just a general thing you see around a lot) write it off as simple movie synergy, like the movies are the only reason this happened. So I just like to remind people that this whole thing goes back further than the movies, and probably would have happened without them, even if a few aspects, like his appearance, may have ended up a bit different.

[Prof. Aegis]

that's true, I think more people likely checked out Agent of Asgard at the very least due to what they had seen in the movies, and if they hadn't, it may not have had enough reason for them to continue down that path, and sure, I do think the movies helped some. But at the same time, I just have found the whole story interesting on it's own merits, and it's sad to see some people (not referring to Decoy specifically here, it's just a general thing you see around a lot) write it off as simple movie synergy, like the movies are the only reason this happened. So I just like to remind people that this whole thing goes back further than the movies, and probably would have happened without them, even if a few aspects, like his appearance, may have ended up a bit different.

Good points Raye. I see this all starting with JMS' take with Loki, and inhabiting the body of Sif, being Lady Loki and how he was, yes the villain, but showed other characteristics and behaviors not really shown before (though my reading depth is limited in the earlier stories), but I believe it helped in the new allowing for a new direction that Gillen fully ran with in JIM and Young Avengers and then Ewing taking it to the next level and adding more depth and dimensions to Loki. AoA was not a movie series, it had its own course and connections to JiM and YA, and had it not been for Secret Wars, could have continued on for longer. Yes, the movies definitely helped to give attention to Loki, but his character work had already been set in motion and was growing and deepening before the movies really hit big. The MCU just helped to bring attention to Loki, which in turn, has helped to keep this line of character growth going instead of throwing him back into a simple villain down the line.

Because of the growth from JiM, YA and AoA, Loki's new series seems to be adding to this growth and showing new dimensions to the character as well as building on what has come before.

[Raye]

Yeah, that's a good point about JMS' run. We sometimes overlook it because it was Gillen that really started the push towards a face turn, but I think any time you add depth to a character, it reveals doors to take them down new paths. And I think Loki did definitely get more depth with JMS' run, which probably started to nudge things along in terms of writers seeing the character as more than just 'Thor's jealous and devious brother'. I mean there was a bit more to him, but still, he was pretty one-note before that. Of course, it's sometimes hard to get writers to open those new doors, so we still got kinda lucky when Siege happened, and the writers and/or editors decided to try to open one of them after Loki died and was brought back, rather than just continue down the same path as before.

I said it before but when you look around at how some other characters are being handled, particularly ones that underwent face turns, Loki was actually very lucky that he had a string of writers in succession that saw the potential in exploring new angles, plus an editorial that was cool with that, maybe even encouraged it.

[Raye]

Ok, Loki's only JUST BARELY in this picture, but sharing here too because we know he will be part of the story:


https://twitter.com/AgentM/status/1130218745136336897

So looks like the story in War Scrolls is a prequel of some kind, probably, and Kate's in it too! probably. And aw, lookit the picture on the bedstand, too cute.

[Rosebunse]

Does anyone else still feel weird when they have cellphones is shows or comics? I don't know why I feel weird about that, because it is a normal part of life and all.

I'm digging the art in that preview.

I would like to add that it wasn't just the writers and had to accept Loki, but the art styles and changing perception of masculinity caught up with Loki.

His being effeminate and not the exact picture of male masculinity were traits which once regulated him to villain status are now more in vogue and easier for even older afults to digest. Even the influence of anime cannot be denied because that influence gave Loki a sort of template for his look and demeanor.

[Raye]

Comics, kinda, but it's because of the sliding timescale. It just gets a little weird to look at some of the older stories where they don't even have computers aside from the sci-fi variety, like Reed Richards creates this computer the size of a car that's considered miraculous at the time it was published, but it could accomplish a fraction of what a mobile device can do today. And modern comics they have cell phones, even in flashbacks to the early days, because the sliding timescale has dragged the past forward. But I can see why it's done. While Spider-Man Life Story is a fascinating take on the character, and I'd love to see it applied to some other characters, i can understand why Marvel (and DC) generally wants to keep their characters from aging, so they can keep them around for longer, and the sliding timescale allows that, even if it does also introduce some weirdness when you compare the past to the present. It's supposed to only be like 10 years ago or whatever, but like, the Fantastic Four are going to a Beatles concert, Punisher is fighting in Vietnam, Kitty Pryde geeking out over Star Wars like it's a new thing, or whatever.

I love Loki's newish cell phone addiction tho, and that he knows his way around a computer and the internet, and likes current pop culture. I like the idea that he's quick to pick up the latest trends, or at least tries to, but Thor is very slow to, despite his love of Midgard.

Was mentioned in the Young Avengers thread (because of course i shared the pic there as well) that "Kate" is probably actually Loki. It would explain the 'drag' aspect of the title if Loki is posing as Kate, but also raises some questions, like... why? Why has he spent all this time avoiding them, only to try and trick them into a meeting? He may think they wouldn't want to talk to him otherwise because of what happened in YA, he walked away before he gave them a chance to forgive him, which they would have, because they're nice like that, (which he said himself) and then he pretty publicly 'turned heel' recently, I mean it was an act done for a greater good, but Billy and Teddy don't know that, so... But that only explains why he might feel he has to disguise himself as Kate, not why he'd need to met with them so urgently that he has to trick them to do it.

I think 'effeminate' is a little strong for Loki when not shapeshifted into a woman, he's not exactly Jeffree Star or anything, especially lately with his disheveled and unshaven appearance. He's not exactly putting a lot of effort in to look 'pretty' or anything. And i don't think black nails and a slight build are necessarily feminine traits. (see: a bunch of punk or metal musicians) But I take your point, what was once seen as 'feminine' is now seen as more neutral. I guess that's why I think the label 'effeminate' seems a bit off for him now. While he has no interest in being traditionally masculine, I'd just call him more an individualist or non-conformist, something neutral, rather than gender code it. I don't think he cares what his appearance can be coded as, (unless he's shape shifting into a woman) just that he likes how it looks on him, and he doesn't care if it conforms to societal norms. But not conforming to societal norms was considered a lot more taboo than it is today, so yeah he does in a bit better. Especially when you now have characters like Billy rocking the black nails (and long ones, too!) in the new Deaths Head mini. though possibly just for the punk/metal/goth/whatever concert he and Teddy are attending, it's not quite clear. but still. But at the same time, if society catches up to Loki, I think he'd want to get away from that. He doesn't like fitting in, he likes doing his own thing and pushing boundaries. so if he begins to fall within the boundaries too much, I think he'd find new ways to push against them.

[Raye]

Well guess no one's gonna bump this today before i have to get going for the night.

So I know I have been critical of all the Infinity stuff, but credit where due, today's issue of infinity Watch was pretty funny. I would definitely read more adventures with Loki, Wolverine, and Bats if all the issues were like this. my only quibble with the voice this issue is when Loki referred to Earth as a 'disgusting mud ball' because we know Loki actually likes Earth now.

Loki wasn't in or mentioned in any of the WotR tie-ins that I read, except one, and it's a surprising one. And also weirdly handled. so Loki, Thor, Sif, and the Warriors 3, were all in, of all places, Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur, which i keep up with because I get it for my niece, and I like to be able to discuss it with her. It was weird tho because, though it happened 'once upon a time,' so in the past, all the characters are shown in their classic costumes, including Loki.




i mean the art is nice, I like it, but... since she got her powers in the aftermath of Secret Wars, when Loki was already in his current characterization and Thor had already lost both his hammer and his arm, them appearing in their classic costumes is impossible. And while normally Moon Girl kinda falls under the same category as Squirrel Girl where canon is kinda loosely adhered to, it did explicitly start out tying into WotR, which is odd since it's a book mainly aimed at children, and WotR is, you know, not, and also brings with it a certain amount of expectation that it at least get the basics right, like Squirrel Girl did. So, while a fun story, it bugged me that they didn't get that right. The whole thing could have still worked for the most part (Loki does say right there that he's trying to help, but the others aren't having it, he didn't come off as villainous, really. Though i can't figure out why Odin would force him to do this, but whatever.) I'm wondering if maybe they just never gave the artist the model sheets of the current looks for the characters, or...?

But i am wondering if Loki might return in that book. Lunella has one of Loki's main character flaws that led him down the path of villainy, in that she thinks she's the smartest person around, and that nothing she does wrong can possibly be her fault because of that, that everything is everyone elses fault because they're screwing everything up by being idiots. She is smart, like legit, but it has made her extremely arrogant, and it is getting worse. And she won't listen to anyone because she sees them as lesser than her. It may be that only someone like Loki could get through to her, because he already went down that path with terrible results.

bonus: Dino-thor

[Rosebunse]

You're right, effeminate was too strong of a word for Loki. I mean, it's not like every male character is rocking black nail polish now. It's still not conforming to set gender roles and I don't see that entirely changing for a long time. Of course, things have changed very quickly in our culture in just a decade, so who knows?

I was looking at wikipedia, as one will do, and I cam across that Loki actually does have two brothers from Laufey and Faburti. Perhaps that Ice Man character could be one of those? I don't know, just sort of interesting. In the comics, they haven't been mentioned and Loki's biological mother is said to be dead. I really thought Aaron would go somewhere with that, but he was playing things much straighter than we thought.

Just read Infinity Watch and dammit, Duggan is having fun. I don't mind Loki calling the Earth a "disgusting mud ball." Dude, give the man a break! He was just compared to what's his name. He deserves more respect than that!

The Moon Girl stuff could be happening at any point in history and those were all common costumes all of those characters have worn multiple times. This clearly not being our current Loki does reinforce that this is taking place in the past.

Something has to happen to Lunella at some point, it always does with smart characters.

[Raye]

I was looking at wikipedia, as one will do, and I cam across that Loki actually does have two brothers from Laufey and Faburti. Perhaps that Ice Man character could be one of those? I don't know, just sort of interesting. In the comics, they haven't been mentioned and Loki's biological mother is said to be dead. I really thought Aaron would go somewhere with that, but he was playing things much straighter than we thought.

I mean are they still alive though? If Laufey disliked Loki so much, why keep him around as long as he did, if there were two other sons he presumably liked better? but it is possible, though if they are still alive, i don't think they would be on friendly terms with Loki since it is looking more like Loki is king of Jotunheim, a position i am guessing they would feel they are better suited for.

The Moon Girl stuff could be happening at any point in history and those were all common costumes all of those characters have worn multiple times. This clearly not being our current Loki does reinforce that this is taking place in the past.

Something has to happen to Lunella at some point, it always does with smart characters.

It really can't be happening at any point in history, because Lunella is only NINE YEARS OLD. And she only got her powers/Devil Dinosaur after Secret Wars (the recent one) ended. So if she and Devil are in a story with Loki and Thor, it should be in their current costumes. period. Now, the previous arc dealt with Nightmare, so it may be possible this is more dream stuff, but... iffy, since the frost giant she fought in NY during Malekith's invasion appeared in the earlier story.

but, as mentioned, it is in the same sort of murky area as Squirrel girl as far as continuity goes, so there is some wiggle room, but... still.

solicits out! Loki only seems to be mentioned in his own solicit, but it sounds fun:



LOKI #2
DANIEL KIBBLESMITH (W) • OSCAR BAZALDUA (A)
COVER BY OZGUR YILDIRIM
Variant Cover by ANDREA SORRENTINO
Bring on the Bad Guys Variant Cover by DECLAN SHALVEY
ESCAPE FROM STARK UNLIMITED!
Restless with his new duties after the War of the Realms, Loki seeks out the advice of the closest thing Earth has to a king — TONY STARK, THE INVINCIBLE IRON MAN! — Close enough, right? But it turns out old Shell-head isn’t happy to see Loki on account of all that stuff he did. Now the God of Mischief/Stories/Evil/Chaos has to outsmart the cleverest man in Midgard or die (again) trying. Meanwhile, could Thor be hatching a mischievous plot of his own?


So, though it doesn't come right out and say it, it does definitely sound like Loki is king of (probably) Jotunheim, if he is going to Tony because he thinks he is the closest thing Earth has to a king (you'd think maybe T'Challa or Doom would be on that list, but... whatever...) Tony seems to be a magnet for villains trying to turn over a new leaf, lately. And he doesn't like it. Tho, i'm hoping that by the end he and Loki reach some sort of understanding.

[Prof. Aegis]

Okay, so here's my take, based upon the Loki and Thor Aug solicits, Loki will either turn up at the end of WotR 5 or the middle of 6 and will help to end the War. Then in the Omega issue will be given his new responsibilities from Thor and that will set up his new series. Which ties into why Thor is missing and Loki has a big responsibility. King, leader, guardian of Midgard, perhaps?

Plus I like how the Loki solicits mention him as the God of Mischief/Stories/Evil/Chaos...at least they aren't discarding what has gone on before.