Loki Appreciation 2019

[Snoop Dogg]

oh snap since thor stole the dog what if loki gets nightmare's pimp black unicorn as his trusty steed and new pal

[Raye]

I could totally be down with a black unicorn steed.

edit:
(Voltaire, btw, is a massive Dr Strange fan, even petitioned for the part in the movies, or to at least have a song in the credits, which sadly came to nothing. So, given that, it's likely the song actually is inspired by Nightmare)

[Rosebunse]

I think we can all agree that Loki getting a black unicorn as a mount would be a cool Skyrim mod.

I think the issue with Loki's morality that we all struggle with is just how much he ever was in control of it. Now, I think most of us would say that Loki was very much in control of what he does, but there's also the fact that Loki, as a god in the MU, Loki always had to fulfil a role and one which certainly effected hin through the ages. So I feel like the God of Stories thing was an attempt at playing within the established rules.

The God of Nothing status could also be Loki trying to play within those rules, just by not putting himselfnin any particular box, but still being a god

[Raye]

speak for yourself, you may struggle with that, but I've always believed he could change, he has already demonstrated that, imo. The god aspect certainly adds an additional hurdle to overcome, because those roles always have to be filled, and with no one to take his place, he was having trouble escaping the role, even though he wanted to. But when it came to him stepping into the role in the first place? I think that was all him. It clearly doesn't like, control his mind, or make him a puppet, but it does make the inertia harder to overcome if someone in a role changes their mind or something. But it's not impossible, or it would simply not be possible for Thor to have become unworthy and for Jane to take up the mantle. It just needs someone in the role, it doesn't necessarily have to be him.

Though I may be wrong about this aspect, I'm bringing Balder back into this because he lacks the same baggage Loki does, so the hypothetical illustrates how I think the role exchange works. He's not considered 'evil by default' like Loki sometimes is, BUT it would still make sense for him to fill that role. The reason Balder being the new Loki makes sense is because with Loki in the role of 'Thor', he already has a motivation that makes sense, based on previous events, for him to lash out at Loki in some way. And that could, in theory, lead to the same sort of inertia that led Loki down a bad path initially. This motivation doesn't need to be inserted into his mind artificially, it's already there, it does actually make sense for him to be upset about seeing Loki being (from Balder's perspective) rewarded for being an *******, while he, who has suffered and died at Loki's hands, is left on the sidelines. Many people would think he is perfectly justified to be pissed right off about the situation. Fate may be controlling the fact that the roles have to exist, and those roles determine the overall shape of the story, sure. But the characters that fill the roles aren't just kinda forced to play along, they get slotted into those roles because their motivations and actions fit the roles.... until they don't. And then it's time for the role to pass to someone else while they find a new one. Loki was never forced to be the bad guy because he had a role arbitrarily slapped on him. He got the role because he already was the bad guy, or at least had the makings of one. He may not have ever wanted to admit that, because then he has to accept responsibility for being awful, but... it's true. And on the upside, it also means his fate is more in his hands than he thought, because he was never forced to be what he is now, so he can be something else, even if it means landing into another role.

And they will make those roles their own, in time. I know we keep saying the roles are 'the Thor', and 'the Loki', 'the Odin' etc. because it makes discussion easier. But they aren't the ones that started them. Odin used to be what would now be considered 'the Thor' back in the day a million years ago, until he became, well at the time, 'the Bor' but made the role his own until now the role is considered 'the Odin', and in the future, Thor will do the same. King Thor himself said it's no longer the Odinforce, in the future, it's the Thorforce, because he made that role his own in that time, it's his now. It's the roles that matter, not who fills them, we just use the current holder as the label because it makes things simpler. We could just call them 'the father', 'the hero', 'the villain' but they lack the nuance of the roles, they are more complex than that.

(ok, I'm done editing now, I just wanted to make my thoughts clear, so lots of fiddling and additions)

[Raye]

Ok, I am making this a new post because a lot of time has passed, but I thought of a better way to explain what I was thinking.

The whole story, back to God of Thunder, has been about living up to a role, Thor's specifically, but the recent issues have expanded that. Where i think a lot of people get hung up with the 'worthy' thing with being able to lift Mjolnir, is that they think 'worthy' is synonymous with 'good' but it's not. 'Worthy' is not a word that carries an inherent moral meaning, it's neutral. bad people can be worthy of punishment, for instance. All it means is that the person in question has somehow proven themselves worthy of.... something, according to a predetermined agreement or rule. And that goes for ALL the roles. Loki has had to prove his worth for his role as the bad guy in order to fill it, even if he doesn't have an overt symbol the same way Thor does with Mjolnir. The same way a Thor has to prove they are worthy by lifting Mjolnir, or Odin had to prove his worth to be the All-Father by losing his eye at the a world Tree. Their actions or their qualities as a person determine their worth for a role. And if Thor can become unworthy of his role, Loki can become unworthy of his. It isn't just Thor that became unworthy of his role, so did Loki and Odin, it's just they didn't have anyone stepping in to take their place like Jane did with Thor. (well, maybe Malekith did for Loki)

So no, I don't think Loki had a role slapped on him arbitrarily by someone else and has been controlled by it. I think he had to prove himself worthy of that role somehow way back when, same way Thor had to prove himself worthy of his role. Just... By doing bad things rather than good ones. And by doing so, it became difficult for him to then escape it, because that role had to be filled according to the rules of the universe, so fate tried to keep him there. And now he is no longer worthy of his old role, and has to prove his worth for a new role, same as Thor is doing at the World Tree to become worthy to become the All Father.

[Karabaja]

I remember an old Thor issue in which Loki claimed that it's not his fault for bringing Ragnarok as he's only fulfilling the prophecy, and Odin (or Thor?) replied something along the lines of "yeah but you sure pretty much enjoy it, too". That somehow seems to imply that, while they might be assigned some kind of role, they have the free will to take it, or not.

[Fanto.mx]

I think of the roles less as a box within which they operate and more like a kind of inertia. Like imagine you're standing near the top of a very large hill. It's not that you necessarily want to go downhill, but it sure is easier. And compared to the effort to climb the rest of the way up or to move to another hill, it's likely you're going to start to enjoy going down your hill. Maybe you even start jogging down.

Well, because the hills are made of story, for Loki (and Thor and Odin), these are extremely large hills. Since JiM, we've seen Loki dash down the hill, walk back up, attempt to jump to other hills, wander around without going up or down a few times, and make everyone think he's walking down his hill while he's actually climbing up, Mystery House-style.

But again, because these hills are made of story, they hold each other up:
2019-06-21.jpg

Someone has to be on each hill, and each hill depends on another. What Loki says there is filtered through a deep self-loathing and momentary nihilism, but there has to be a "sword that protects the realms" and a "sharpening stone." When Thor left his hill, Jane started walking it. And despite all his progress, I don't think Loki ever really left his own hill. It's not that they're locked in, it's that their hills rather suit them, and it's so much easier to keep going downhill. But I think in the solo series, because of how the stories are being rearranged in the aftermath of WOTR, Loki's going to find himself on the "Thor" (Sword) hill for two big reasons: That hill is made up of being torn between two worlds that you need to protect, in one of which you're royalty (and which comes with a hammer, apparently), and Thor is abandoning his hill again, probably to start walking the Odin hill, which is made up of a larger responsibility for wisdom (the eye / tree thing), the fabric of the ten realms, and most of all Asgard (and it comes with the throne, apparently).

All of this is to say that someone will end up walking the Loki (Sharpening Stone) hill. And I also think it will be Balder. Remember that walking that hill doesn't necessarily mean you're evil, it just means that you're going to "sharpen" whoever is on the Sword hill. If the sword is Loki, Balder will refuse to accept that, for obvious reasons, and might just find himself walking the hill that Loki has walked for a long, long time. The fact that for all of what we've seen, this is a set of family hills, having the other brother fill this role / walk this hill makes good sense.

And from a purely story-focused, mechanical point of view, this would open up all sorts of neat dichotomies and story possibilities, with Balder inverting the expectations everyone had for Loki, etc.

[Raye]

True that Balder doesn't necessarily have to be evil to fill Loki's role, and that it can subvert expectations, and maybe even shine some new light on how Loki ended up where he did. That's part of the reason the role switcheroo has so much potential to be interesting, because that doesn't just go for the 'sharpening stone' role, it goes for all of them. By being All Father, Thor doesn't have to be just like Odin, and Loki doesn't have to be just like Thor to be the sword, even if a lot of the broad strokes end up the same. And by showing how they can fill the same role but in a different way, it helps us understand just what that role means, when we look at what does remain similar between the two characters filling the same role. Another part is that it just creates more engaging stories when you have to see a character work for something, for them to climb up the hill, rather than stroll down it. When they are walking down the hill, with that inertia just kind of carrying them along, we're lacking a big part of the struggle that engaging stories need. Having them struggle to climb up the hill into their new role is way more interesting. Thor and Loki aren't going to start out at the top of their new hills, they're going to start at the bottom, and climb their way up, until they reach a point where it becomes comfortable and familiar for them, and they start coasting down, before maybe moving on to the next hill. And also fits the Thor role in particular, which has always had an element of having to learn lessons, having him learn humility, having him learn to balance the two worlds he cared about, etc. Thor himself can't keep learning the same lessons over and over, it gets repetitive and boring, and it also makes him look stupid if he has to learn the same lessons over and over. But Loki still needs to learn them, because he's new to this. I mean Loki is smart, I think he understands some of this on a surface level, but there are certain things you can only truly learn through experiencing them. The difference between Loki's role and Thor or Odin's roles though, is Thor or Odin's roles are something you strive FOR, Loki's role is something you fall into and then strive to ESCAPE. So while I like your hills analogy, I would change Loki's to a pit. It's still inertia driving things along, still easier to go down than up, but it's a bit backwards from Thor's role, which is presumably why, unlike Odin or Thor's roles, his lacks a 'congrats, you've achieved worthiness for the role!' signifier, such as Mjolnir, because his role is not something you try to get, it should be something that sneaks up on you, where one day you just suddenly realize you're the bad guy, and you have a hard time pinpointing when it ever happened, and then you have to either just roll with it, which is what Loki did for many years, or figure out how to get out of it.

So somewhat related, I was thinking. (and yes, this will relate to Loki, but it will take a while to get there) In the solicit for Thor #16, it says Thor has gone missing, and that revealing how would spoil the end of WotR, so it must tie into the end of WotR somehow. But... he's on the covers for Avengers, and mentioned in the solicits for Loki, so that's weird. Then the next month, there is no regular Thor, issue at all, it's just King Thor. The cover for WotR 6 shows King Thor and young Thor, so that implies that there is time travel shenanigans involved in WotR 6, to get Maximum Thorage to go beat the snot out of Malekith at Stonehenge. So.... here's how i can see how all these things can be reconciled. Though I am not sure how exactly this could happen, SOMEHOW King and Young Thors are pulled out of time and into the present. And when they get sent BACK to where they belong, present day Thor is pulled into the future (again) hence how he can be 'missing' in his own book, but apparently have never left from the perspective of Avengers and Loki. Because he can spend months, years even, in the future, but still be sent back to about the same time he left in the present. So how does this this relate to Loki? Well we know Loki in the far future has gotten the Necrosword and has apparently gone full on bad guy again. So what if Thor sees this happening in the future, and realizes that in order to stop this future from coming to pass, he has to prevent Loki from going bad again? this could explain both why he is cool with Loki having Mjolnir, and also why in the solicits for Loki's book, he's so determined to keep him on task and focused on his new responsibilities, why he's 'not about to let him walk away from them this time' Thor can't let Loki fail and fall back to his old ways or THAT future happens. so it wouldn't be saying that future is inevitable, but avoiding it is dependent on Loki not straying, which still makes it a big risk. And of course Loki saw this too, so he knows this, but you know, change is hard. he's walking uphill, as mentioned. But it would basically be Aaron saying ''undo the Loki change, and this horrible future is canon, you doom the MU if you undo his character development'

[Rosebunse]

Love all the theorizing here and the hill analogy makes so much sense! Marvel needs to steal that concept right now and use the hell out of it if they aren't already.

And Raye, love your theory about time travel. It makes absolute perfect sense and it brings to mind how if Loki is made evil again, it would probably be during or right before a major event. Given Loki's status and odd popularity, it would be a notable event. So Aaron's threat isn't just a threat, but a fun bit of meta commentary.

[Raye]

So apparently it's the Fantastic Four that gets the time traveling part done: https://www.adventuresinpoortaste.co...-the-realms-6/

So far, I'm on track. But it's just 3 pages, and that was the safe bet part of the equation. It also took his last bit of Mjolnir, and he seems to think it means it's gone for good, but we all know Mjolnir was forged in the heart of a dying star, our sun may not be dying for another 5 billion years or so, but it is a star, so it may just be re-forging it. This may also be where Jane gets her fantastic new weapon, but we know Mjolnir proper does get re-forged, even if the Loki cover doesn't mean what we think, because, I mean, look in King Thor's hand, he has Mjolnir, that's not one of the knockoffs, that's the real deal, we've seen it in action in God of Thunder. Also, while the cover only shows Thor and the time displaced versions of himself, we saw Jane pick up the other hammer, so we know at minimum she will be involved, so i do think it quite likely that Loki will be as well. My bet is the 3 Thor Odinsons end up having a bit of a rough time in there, and Loki and Jane come in towards the end to tip the scales in their favor. Present Day Thor seems to be focusing on 'guys whose name is actually Thor' but I am pretty sure the forcefield will allow people who also fulfill the role of Thor.

Also, yes, if Loki gets heel-turned again, it will either be for some kind of event story, or when a new writer takes over the main Thor book. His new solo grants him some protection right now, though, since i somehow doubt Kibblesmith will be turning him heel again. Apparently Aaron is gone in about 6 months, and unless something goes horribly wrong, Loki's book will likely last more than 9 issues, at the very least i am betting on 15 or so, like Agent of Asgard. So, whoever takes over from Aaron will likely have to work around whatever Kibblesmith is doing with the character, the same way Aaron had to work around Young Avengers and Agent of Asgard. (which meant not including Loki at all until AoA ended in his case, but it doesn't necessarily have to be that he can't appear in Thor on occasion as well as in his own book) After that though? who knows. But the longer he lasts, the better his chances are.

[Raye]

oh, also, Kibblesmith is tweeing again:

https://twitter.com/kibblesmith/stat...56795648581637 so Loki is apparently 2013 years old
https://twitter.com/kibblesmith/stat...62438422220801 oh god, please no.
https://twitter.com/kibblesmith/stat...63561475731458

and there have been many additions to the Printerest: https://www.pinterest.ca/kibblesmith...3f8b2e4038c610 some do definitely seem to suggest a new costume coming, though i hope that is more inspiration than what it will actually look like, (I like the asymmetry of the coat, but they're too busy) more nice suits, green sunglasses cus obviously, map of Jotunheim, (which makes sense, but it's outdated at this point) some stuff with a garden that has giant sculptures in New York, possible story idea there i guess, green dice, a search about those human sized chess games, plus a Loki chess piece, i mean Loki has always liked chess and other games, but not quite sure how this ties in, but seems something will be done with his love for games. Maybe some kind of nightmare scenario is my best guess? and... uh... a Zelda Breath of the Wild walktrhough? why? I mean the before mentioned love for games could extend to this, but i just don't see how a Zelda walkthrough could be used in a comic.

[Snoop Dogg]

that casino variant 😳😧😫😶😍

[Raye]

I know, he's so cute on that cover

so this is interesting: https://www.newsarama.com/45737-thor...the-stage.html



The article there seems to sugest something more comics based for Thor and Loki's play, but the actual site has them in like, high school.

"One is the Norse God of Thunder, Master of the Storm, Lord of the Living Lightning, and heir to the throne of eternal Asgard. The other born of a Frost Giant, but now the Norse God of Mischief. Yet they are brothers, and together they are… The Mighty Thor and Loki."

This play features Odin and Freyja, Sif, Heimdall and the Warriors Three, along with a Thor at the end of his life along with his three granddaughters

https://www.samuelfrench.com/s/65714...rvel-spotlight

As Thor struggles with the stress of final exams, his brother Loki finds himself under a different sort of pressure. Neither are beneath pranks in the endless competition for their parents’ favor. But underneath all the thunder and mischief, these two Princes of Asgard discover a bond that will last millennia.

As I said in the Squirrel Girl thread, at first this seemed strange to me, but the more I think about it the more brilliant it seems. My niece would have an absolute blast if she got to do one of these plays, and in the process it introduces all the kids in the audience to the characters when they perform it. Pair the staging of one of these plays with one of the Scholastic book fairs?

[Rosebunse]

Awwww! That sounds cute! Get those fans when they're young!

[Raye]

I told my sister about the plays, and she's going to ask the school for yer younger daughter to put one of the plays on. apparently they do a play every few months, so the chances are good.

Also, was thinking about the new Printerest pictures, and I realized what a lot of them are probably for. The locations pictured are in or around New York, and we know Nightmare is trapping it in a Nightmare realm, right? so what if, when that happens, those places become terrifying? so the garden of giant statues, they all come alive and start wrecking ****, citizens trapped in the giant chess game, the fountain goes horribly wrong, etc. The one location there ('sides the library) that isn't in NY is from a hotel in Los Angeles, but i could see him kinda fudging the details of location for that one, since the picture is of the 'girl box' which is a sort of behind the desk decoration at a hotel, where a person just kinda lays there for everyone to see. I could see that representing Loki's fear of being like, confined by invisible restraints, or put under too much scrutiny. But I am probably overthinking it.

still confused about the Zelda walkthru tho.

anyway.... read WotR....

spoilers:

Probably not much of a surprise at this point but he's alive again. cut open Laufey's stomach with Heimdall's sword and the Casket of Ancient winters (which Laufey had swallowed). Daredevil apparently heard him in there and assisted by throwing Loki Heimdall's sword. But, frustratingly, we only got one page, plus one more panel towards the end, and we saw no one's reaction to him busting out of there, not one person. Nor did we see how he got out of his funk and pulled himself together. i mean, I like that he got out of there himself, (with an assist from Daredevil) but I'd have liked to have seen SOME kind of reaction from Thor, or Freyja, or, well, anyone, really, or see a bit of how he did what he did. Maybe they just ran of of room, maybe it will be covered in the Omega issue and/or his solo, but... still. I was just hoping for a bit more, and for him to help with more than just killing Laufey. He also did not get Mjolnir (which was reforged) buuuuut.... three things. first, the issue of Thor today had some parallels with Young Thor becoming worthy when he saw Freyja's life being threatened and he stepped in to save her, and bam, worthy, and the captions kind of mirrored her relationship with Loki as well. so it may be suggesting that even if no one realizes it, he is worthy. second, Thor is indeed all-father now, Odin handed the title to him, so while Thor may be worthy again, he may have to kinda give his postition to someone else so that he can fulfill his new role, as speculated previously. Third, and perhaps most importantly, Loki may not need Mjolnir to be the new 'Thor' or at least he may not need his brother's Mjolnir. He's got his own storm in a box, he can make his own Mjolnir, just one fueled by ice and snow rather than lightning. They said it plain as day, the Thor makes the hammer, not the other way around. *edit - wait, fourth thing. When Thor got Mjolnir back, they went on to what 'worthy' means, and it's not 'be the bestest person' it's knowing you don't live up to the standards you or others hold you to, but you're trying your best anyway. Which is very Loki. and yes, actually, this lines up perfectly with inverted Loki. they spoiled the big secret years ago. So yeah, I do still think we're on track for Loki as 'Thor' but we didn't get the big dramatic reveal here.

end of spoilers

Basically, i think i get what they're going for here, but it felt like it needed another issue or two to flesh it all out. Which may be the intent of the Omega Issue, but that feels like it's tacked on addendum rather than a part of the actual story, so it lacks the same weight.