Loki Appreciation 2019

[Prof. Aegis]

Does anyone here have the Journey into Mystery Gillen Omnibus with his Kid Loki run? Does it include the A+X #5 issue he wrote with Loki and Mr. Sinster?

[Raye]

I don't have the omnibus, but I know someone who does, I will ask him

They really did have quite a bit of Loki in this film. Like, not a ton, but it was a nice thing to do given that they couldn't find a logical way to bring the Loki from the prime universe back.

OMG I need this preview so bad! We know Loki is coming back, but I want him back now! Mostly because I want to see which theory is right and how this is going to play out. I'm enjoying War of the Realms, but I almost feel like the stakes aren't big enough, if that makes any sense.

Preview is out, but no Loki, it's focused on Freyja. I wasn't really expecting him in the preview, they know 4 page previews are a thing, so they generally don't put the big reveal stuff in the first 4 pages. Or if they do, they choose some other pages for the preview.

I think the stakes are high, but it feels like they're a bit lower because we didn't see a lot of how Malekith got here. We got a bit of a check in now and then, usually as a side effect of checking in on Loki towards the end, but generally it was focused on Thor and other Asgardians. And while they were aware of what Malekith was up to, I don't think they realized the full extent, and then Malekith blindsided them a bit. Kinda makes sense in that of course Malekith wouldn't want them to know exactly when and where he would strike next, but it also meant that Malekith probably didn't get as much attention as he should have in the leadup to show how much of a threat he was, since most of his conquering happened off panel.

Of course, I'm not saying that I didn't want Loki eaten by Laufey. That was awesome! But I was so confused when there were people who acted like Loki was actually dead. Of course, Aaron gave us a scenario that was so much worse than actual death.

I mean, to be fair, more people are going to read the event than read Thor, let alone Agent of Asgard etc. so a lot of people who are reading are unaware of a lot of the leadup, and they may not be aware of all Loki is going through. It's not as if other characters haven't been offed in dramatic ways to demonstrate the stakes before. But we are going to see a lot more to him being eaten than they will, because we have the benefit of having read everything that happened prior.

Gatekeeping can be a serious issue within fan communities, especially in comics where you have a bunch of older fans who have been in it their entire lives and a bunch of younger fans who are just finding it. None of us here want to run those younger fans off, but it becomes a debate on how exactly you do handle them. My method is to quietly leave a fandom if it becomes too toxic, which can be sort of annoying since I am not really involved in too many either. I get too obsessed with something and it becomes all I can think about. I seriously don't understand how people can watch several shows at once and have a life LOL

Don't have any intention to keep them out of the fandom, but I don't have any intention of being driven out either. It's big enough for everyone. They can have their spaces to do their thing, we can have our spaces, like this thread.

anyway, random thought, I was thinking today, Loki has a better chance of sticking with his faceturn than some of the other more recent failed examples because it was so much more slowly developed. It makes it not as jarring as going 'ok, Sabretooth/Galactus/whoever is a good guy now, deal with it' and also means it is probably going to be harder to fully undo. (though it would be possible if they really wanted to) We kinda got that sudden shift with Kid Loki, and it was fun, but he was more of a step along the way. There was Siege and everything prior- full on villain, sometimes less villainous, sometimes more, but still, villain. Then the whole plot with killing Kid Loki - still a villain, but Kid Loki had shown he had the potential to be something better. YA stated out anti-villain, with some devious things planned for the team, but became anti-hero by the end, and it introduced him being tortured by guilt. Agent of Asgard still anti-hero, and thanks to the continuing guilt, now his motivation has changed from simply trying to get others to believe he had turned face, when he really hadn't, to actively wanting to not be the villain any more, even if he's not trying to be a full on good guy. And that continues now in Thor, where he got forced back into the villain role again, (partly his own fault, to be fair) but haaaaaaaaates it, it's making him realize how much he wants to leave that behind, but he's having trouble doing so. He may not want to be the villain, but the world very much wants him in that role. But he is attempting to use that villain role to paradoxically accomplish some good, to varying degrees of success, like playing the double agent thing with Malekith, or tricking strange so he can fix magic, or using the Celestials to get the Avengers back together in time for WotR. And then War of the Realms, he was like, 'no, no more villain'. He's so done with being a villain that he would literally rather die than be that again, he seems to be over even doing it for show, after refusing to kill some random frost giant. (to be fair, he had a similar epiphany in AoA but thought he had found a loophole, except he hadn't really, and this one hit me harder i think precisely because we had seen him suffer through playing the bad guy again, and hating it) and he also stops making excuses for his past and accepts responsibility for the things he's done. And then, if it goes the way I hope it will, WotR will actually lead him from anti-hero to just, straight up good guy. though i would imagine one of the variety that sometimes resorts to questionable methods, like Dr Strange, Iron Man, or Reed Richards. Not something even I thought I really wanted for him, i was fine with him sticking to morally grey anti-hero territory. But the leadup makes me ok with the hero angle, and I want to see how that goes. Basically each step along the way wasn't that much of a leap, but added all together it resulted in a complete change from where he started out, which I think makes it both more believable and easier to accept from a readers perspective..

[Rosebunse]

I love Frank in this event. He gets along with Freya a bit too well. And I feel so bad that the elf queen still has that scarring around her mouth...

I don't think I mind people coming into other spaces of the fandom, but they need to be polite and kind. That doesn't mean that we can't have debates and disagreements, but that means we know where to draw the line.

I also worry about how this behavior online translates into real life behavior. I'm sure many of them do try and separate their online behavior from their real world behavior, but it is worrying to think that there are bullies out there who are just mean, but that meanness is made worse by the echo chambers of the internet.

Loki's situation is especially unique because his story has been, well, a real ongoing story. Even popular characters normally don't have this situation where we can see them change over the course of practically a decade.

And it's going to be interesting to sort of see this story get something of a resolution. Or as much of a resolution as it will ever get.

And it's so interesting that it happened to Loki of all characters.

Can you imagine going back in time and telling Marvel fans 15 years ago how this would go?

[Prof. Aegis]

Loki's situation is especially unique because his story has been, well, a real ongoing story. Even popular characters normally don't have this situation where we can see them change over the course of practically a decade.

And it's going to be interesting to sort of see this story get something of a resolution. Or as much of a resolution as it will ever get.

And it's so interesting that it happened to Loki of all characters.

Can you imagine going back in time and telling Marvel fans 15 years ago how this would go?

This is something that I really enjoy about Loki. He hasn't had a consistent series, but in these last 15 years easily, he's had good writers that have been able to create and develop a story with growth of his character and concept. Unlike others that really don't change or are very superficial, he's able to actually change and grow and its not only okay, but its good and accepted. He can pop up in other series with other characters and that growth and change is still there. And why I look forward to seeing him with each appearance.

[Raye]

Not just good writers, though that is a huge part for sure, but he's had good editors. Wil Moss and Lauren Sankovitch are also largely responsible for this. Both of them clearly liked what was being done with Loki, and protected that, kept it going, and in Moss' case especially, helped introduce the new Loki to the wider MU after he inherited Loki from Lauren with Agent of Asgard. And if you look at the other books he edits, (Thor, Squirrel Girl, Immortal Hulk, Vision, etc) you can see that unlike some other editorial teams at Marvel right now, he's more about moving characters forward rather than regressing them to cater to nostalgia. I think as long as Moss has control of Loki, he'll be fine.

But yes, what happened to Loki is very rare. It's happened on occasion, Spike in Buffy is probably the closest to Loki I can think of, but it is certainly not common.

Couple more thoughts. It seems that "Kid Loki" was correct in that the winners would be determined by how low they are willing to sink, embracing their dark side, it seems to be a recurring theme that is developing, first with Loki and all he has done, now Freyja at the Black Bifrost, and it appears Thor will be doing something similar as well. Asking the question of whether winning is worth using the methods employed. But when Freyja and Thor do their thing, everyone will no doubt come to the conclusion afterwards that they had no alternative, and they did what had to be done. Loki however, it is probably just going to come as confirmation of his villainous nature, even though he had the same intent as Freyja and Thor. I mean, I get it, it is his own fault, his past history supports that conclusion. But it shows how taking this ends justify the means approach is damaging to him in particular. He hasn't built the trust that will let people give him the benefit of the doubt when he does something bad but with good intent. And I think it will mean he needs Mjolnir all the more to demonstrate that this time, he was acting with good intent.

Also minor but significant correction about my outline above. It is true that Loki had a similar realization at the end of Agent of Asgard, that the universe wanted him in a certain role, and he could either go with it, or give up and die. But before he took the third option of declaring himself the God of Stories, (which it turned out didn't work, but still) he was actually about to embrace going bad again. So I think when he was put in the same basic situation again after dying, but instead chose death over going bad again, that is pretty significant step.

[Raye]

Tangentially related, in that it doesn't show Loki, but it probably indicates that he gets resurrected for sure next issue - Spider-Man and the League of Realms preview is also out, and as one might suspect since Spider-Man is also among the Jotunheim group, it clearly takes place after that mission is complete, and one page in particular reveals that Thor is doing fine, is back at the Avengers base, and has the Destroyer arm. so it's pretty clear now that Thor gets the Destroyer arm in Jotunheim, or very shortly after, which seems to fit with our speculation that Loki gives it to him, so I am taking this to mean Loki is ok too, even if they don't show him.

But speaking of League of Realms.... hm... ok they have representatives from most realms aside from Svartalfheim (for obvious reasons, but I presume that may be rectified if the Kurse... er, curse, is broken on Lady Waziria) now with a representative from Midgard with Spider-Man, which they haven't had before, but there is no Asgard representative, since Thor is off doing his own thing. this is even mentioned in the solicit for issue 2, where it poses the question of who is representing Asgard on the team... so... what if it's Loki? i mean I know he's technically a frost giant, but they already have a giant, and he is also a prince of Asgard, and most other Asgardians are either incapacitated or busy with other things, and if he's brought back at the same time Thor is, he'd be free for this, though he may need some recuperation time, he's been through a lot, which might explain why he only comes in at issue 2. And since he was on the Jotunheim mission, Spider-Man would have been there to see him revived, and maybe see that he's trying to help. Also, Spidey is trying to take a stealth and infiltration approach here, Loki's specialty.

My guess, based on very little so take it for what it's worth, Jotunheim happens, Laufey is killed, Thor and Loki rescued, Loki gives Thor the Destroyer arm. They go back to Midgard, possibly after some happy reunions with Freyja, since she is manning the Bifrost and will be the one to transport them home. Freyja is also likely to encounter Cul around that time, it remains to be seen if he helps her or tries to hurt her.... I am leaning towards help, but he could go either way. Thor sets up this new League of Realms mission with Spider-Man, and they head off, as seen in the preview. Loki sometime in here meets up with Wiccan and Hulkling. Thor goes to the sun, possibly with Loki, and gets Mjolnir. Then it gets more iffy... Loki then joins the League of Realms, to fill the Asgard slot and to help out since the team is having problems under Spider-Man's leadership. This may lead into some of Loki's new responsibilities in the new solo. I mean, even if Spider-Man is a great leader (and the solicits suggest he is not) he's going to have other responsibilities on Midgard to attend to, his usual Spider-Man deal. Loki, on the other hand, needs a new role.

[Rosebunse]

Seems odd that they wouldn't me toon Loki, but then again, they want to make his return a surprise. And if Thor is getting that arm, something about that by itself makes me think that Laufey is dead.

But...I'm still not sure. The timing does work out, but I am keeping my Hope's in check here.

[Prof. Aegis]

I agree with your thoughts. If they're Thor has the Destroyer's arm and and things are somewhat positive, in the Spidey issue, then yeah, there must be a lot of developments in this next WotR issue. Marvel has done well with keeping these issues and series in sync and not throwing the main story off timing. So yeah, I see Loki coming back at the end this next issue. Which would set up his next steps toward his new series over the last two issues of the event. So now, Im looking forward to the developments of this next issue!

[Raye]

Yeah, i mean even without Thor having the Destroyer arm there (And I still think Loki is the only one who even can give it to him. They haven't set up anyone besides Loki having access to the Destroyer in any way, until last issue, where they clearly just took the armor off of the Asgardians of the Galaxy's ship. He was the one who showed up out of the blue piloting it in Asgardians of the Galaxy, so he got it somewhere. He's clearly the one who salvaged it after Mangog, and that likely includes it's arm as well, he just never re-attached it to the rest of the armor. It's likely hiding there in his pile of junk in Laufey's castle.) Just, I think they can't wait too much longer, because there are things that would need to be resolved before the event concludes. He's got to reunite with at minimum Thor and Freyja (If it happens while Thor is there, that simplifies that part) and we have to get some kind of resolution to his thoughts in Thor #12. I assume #6 will largely be the final fight, so there won't be a ton of space there for personal moments, that's probably going to have to be dealt with in 5, but i would assume partly in 4 as well. Coming back from the dead after being eaten by his own father just deserves a bit more than a few panels to wrap it up with the people he cares about, is all. This page with Thor having the Destroyer arm, plus Loki hanging with Wiccan and Hulkling in War Scrolls, just is confirmation for me. He'll be back in 4.

the part about him joining the League of Realms is little more than blind guessing though. But could be fun, so I'm hoping for it.

Seems odd that they wouldn't me toon Loki, but then again, they want to make his return a surprise. And if Thor is getting that arm, something about that by itself makes me think that Laufey is dead.

But...I'm still not sure. The timing does work out, but I am keeping my Hope's in check here.

Well that's the problem with Loki being eaten in issue 1, and everyone reading solicits these days. They can't mention him by name from that point forward, or put him on the covers, without spoiling things completely, they just can't. This is compounded by the fact that the event is bi-weekly. If it was being released monthly, and we assume 4 is where he is brought back, then by the end they'd be able to mention him again, well, by the final issue anyway, because he'd be alive and kicking again by the time the solicit was released. Yeah, they released the solicit for his solo, which spoiled that he would live (but not how) and frankly that baffles me, you'd think they'd like, wait a month to release the Loki and Jane's solos (i know we want it like, now, but I think we could survive one more month) but they still presumably wanted to maintain the surprise as much as they could prior to that, so no mentioning him. Even if we were always pretty sure Loki wasn't gonna stay dead, they probably didn't want us to be absolutely certain of that, it kills some of the suspense. I mean I love speculating and picking apart little clues, but still, I can see from their side that they'd want to try and maintain surprise at least a little.

[Rosebunse]

And again, I maintain that we were never suppose to assume that Loki was going to stay dead, which is why the announcement about the new series didn't bother me.

I guess I have to agree with Prof Aegis that it seems like this is a lot to happen in this issue. The heroes have to stop Thor, Laufey has to be defeated and Loki rescued and then they have to get the Destroyer arm and back to the Avengers tower.

And this isn't even considering all the action happening in other sections of ththe comic.

I'm not saying that Jason Aaron can't do it, but if he manages to do all of this in one issue without the pacing being jacked to ****, then he is truly one of the greatest writers of all time.

[Raye]

I think Prof Aegis was saying that those things have to happen, not that it was too much to have happen. There's too much supporting that version of events for it to not happen, imo. We may not know all the specific details, but we know the end result, so it has to happen. And i don't think it's too much for one issue. They've already found Thor, it's just a matter of calming him down and getting him out of there, which is done with teleportation via the Bifrost, so it will take seconds. Even assuming Laufey shows up prior to that, complicating matters, which seems likely, the fight doesn't actually have to last long, especially if Loki busts out of there himself. Loki himself is capable of teleportation magic, which makes retrieving the arm quick... He'll probably also get a change of clothes because they're completely wrecked, no doubt, and his coat (which i suspect he wasn't wearing earlier in the event for this reason. He may have multiples of his armor, since those always seem to be in good shape, but he clearly has only one coat, or it wouldn't constantly be in tatters. My guess is that it is enchanted, and thus can't be easily replaced. So it's likely in his little mouse hole) it's not actually all that much, especially if they utilize some of the extra pages.

And I think they may have suspected some people may have thought he could survive that somehow, but I don't think they would have had it as a cliffhanger if it was supposed to be a certainty. You said yourself that some people thought he had legit died. And for those people, they want to maintain the thought of him actually being dead as long as possible.

[Rosebunse]

I should be more considerate of the fans who still expect the surprise. I am pretty excited too!

I didn't think about his clothes. I sort of thought he'd just magic himself up some clothes, but your explanation works too.

Right now, I'm thinking that Laufey will show up because he realizes that Thor killed all of his giants. Loki hears Thor going on a range and kills Laufey to free himself. Then we're treated to a scene of a half naked Loki who has no idea what is happening but he wants to help Thor. Normally this would be sort of hot, but he will be covered in guts and blood and probably sort of messed up until he magically heals himself and offers up the Destroyer arm.

I want to see the reaction to Loki's hoarder mouse hole.

I'm still not entirely sure about the sun thing, though. Thor looked for it for months at this point, but then again, he could think that it will save them from the Ebont Blade and Venom.

But can the Ebont Blade cut the hammer?

[Raye]

And here's where I poke a hole in my own theory. The only problem with Laufey showing up is that Freyja controls the Black Bifrost at the moment. Either he teleported in before she captured it, or she has to lose control of it, which causes some serious problems for getting Thor, Loki and the strike force back to Midgard, not to mention she may die in the process. I presume Loki has had his Black Bifrost privileges revoked, if Malekith regains control. Loki did teleport Thor to Hel, but it is still not completely clear if that was solely through his own magic, (in which case, he can get them back) or if he used the Black Bifrost. It was green, not the black of the Black Bifrost, but he may have been disguising it, or simple art mistake. Another option is that Freyja either teleports Laufey to them, or them to Laufey, (though this will make getting the Destroyer arm a bit trickier) hoping they will kill him.

Thor can't judge his hidey hole, after his boat was in a similar state.

and the sun, i mean, they have two options, go there and get it, or they call it to them. There aren't really any other options, it comes to them or they go to it, one or the other. Either can work, but both also have problems. For it to be called to them, it kinda has to be Jane, as she was the last person to hold it, and that doesn't seem to fit the story very well. It may also come to Thor, or even Loki, but i dunno, it's always been shown to only come to the last person who held it previously. Also, if it was that easy, and they needed it that badly, you'd think they would have just asked Jane to call out to it. It feels like it should be more of an obstacle than just wishing for it to come. Going to it, the problem is that the sun is ENORMOUS, it's a needle in a haystack times a billion, and also an extremely hostile environment. But we know Mjolnir can also reach out and call to someone to come get it, it did this with Jane, which may help there. But then you need to be able to survive the sun to go get it, which eliminates all other worthy characters (such as Cap and Jane) from going to get it without assistance, and pretty much leaves it up to Thor and Loki who have both already demonstrated they can survive inside the sun. I see this as a point in favor of going to get it, because it means it HAS to be Thor and/or Loki, and that just fits the story better.

Malekith never took the Ebony Blade.... He left it sitting in the street. I suppose he may have transferred both himself and Venom INSIDE the blade, or something... I can't see him leaving behind a weapon that powerful, and it seemed like he was trying to create a pseudo-Necrosword, but I mean it was just sitting there in the street last we saw it.

[Rosebunse]

Oh, OK, you're right it was there. Well, this actually makes the next few issues easier.

You do have a point about Laufey. I mean, maybe Laufey could...um...I mean, if he just showed up, would we really question it?

And if Laufey isn't there, then Loki might not be getting saved until issues #5 or #6. It actually makes a lot of sense for Laufey to stay away as it does for him to show up to take out Thor himself. Since this is their home dimension, perhaps it is easier for them to get back to? Or Laufey may have showed up earlier to deal with Thor?

[Raye]

I still think Loki has to be resurrected here. It just comes back to the first point about Thor's Destroyer arm, (Loki MUST be the one in possession of the arm) and the fact that we have a War Scrolls story with Loki in it coming out prior to issue 5. It just may not happen exactly as I was guessing, but I am pretty damn sure it happens in 4, regardless of the specifics.

It's not such a stretch to think that Laufey teleported in earlier, that he's waiting in his castle this whole time, or something. I'm just saying, it does create a bit of a wrinkle. Now that Malekith lacks Bifrost access, it means Malekith's forces, including Laufey, can not be doing any more teleporting, so he can't be teleporting in after Freyja took control. They're as stuck as the Asgardians were prior to this, at the moment.

And Malekith may still do something more with the blade, I'm just saying, whatever he did there with the blade and Venom was pretty vague, we're not sure exactly what he did.