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  1. #241
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    I'm just curious as to the new series coming out in just a few months as to how Loki does come back from his gruesome "end" and what are his new responsibilities. It could be a really good series, which I'm hoping for. Loved Agent of Asgard, so I'm hoping this is just as good.
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  2. #242
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    wow! long time no see! i think the new series will be very different from Agent of Asgard, just based on what I read of Black Panther vs Deadpool, but different doesn't mean bad. We'll see. Ewing can be funny for sure, but Kibblesmith is way more humor focused. It could be that it was in part just the fact that he was writing Deadpool, but it was pretty out there even for him, (he fused a zebra's head into his arm stump, among other things, it was totally nuts, but in a good way) but there was also some emotion underlying the humor, with Wade wanting to be better, but not knowing how, and Black Panther initially thinking he was irredeemable, but eventually deciding Wade could never be able to be better if never given a chance. Gee, does that sound like it might be a theme that could be applicable to another character? It was also very meta, which would also fit Loki. I mean writers don't use the same themes or tone with every book they write, so he may go a different direction, but it does demonstrate that he gets certain themes that would work well with Loki. My biggest concern is his voice, i am apparently pretty particular about that, and there is just no way to predict how well he will get how Loki talks these days.

    As for how he comes back, that I am not sure about, but I am now pretty sure why he's still "alive"

    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I'm an idiot. The answer was right there in the books. Loki... died bravely. He died with honor. Ignoring the reincarnation stuff for a moment, we are assuming that's part of things, but Aaron may be ignoring it. so if he is.... where do the honored dead go when they die? Valhalla. But whoops, the Valhalla shuttle bus is out of order. Which implies there may be other mortally wounded clinging to life but unable to move on, their souls still linked to their corpses. their bodies technically dead, this isn't true immortality, but their souls can't move to their designated resting place without the Valkyries, so they're stuck in between. Yes, Loki was eaten before the Valkyries went down, but he may have still been alive until they fell, or they were too busy with the fight to shuttle the dead, figuring they would get to it later. Brunnhilde flat out said "Hope you ladies weren't expecting a ride to Valhalla this day, for we Valkyries are here to fight, not ferry!" No one who died defending Midgard is going to Valhalla, until Jane takes up the mantle.

    ... and if the bodies of dead gods go to the Naglfar Armada when they die, while their souls go to whichever afterlife they are destined for, then... it may be that when Angela or whoever sounds that horn, some will still have their souls.

    a few more shower thoughts (and yes, I am quoting myself again. I'm on to something here, i think):

    It may be possible to reconcile this with the reincarnation angle in two ways, that I can think of. One - Loki was written out of the Books of Hel by Hela.... Hela wasn't in charge of Hel since Angela took her throne, though. Balder or (more likely) Karnilla may have written him back IN. It may even have been a part of her deal with him when Balder was resurrected, we never saw what they said to each other. Two - It IS the Books of Hel. It may ONLY apply if he is destined for Hel specifically, not Valhalla. (kind of a shitty loophole but whatever)

    And yes, this does mean he actually is dead, and thus harder to bring back. But with no Valkyries, he's got some time to figure something out. It's likely all the other dead destined for Valhalla are in the same sort of dream like in between space he spent most of the issue in, he just forced himself out when most others will happily bide their time in their little dream. And Jane was brought back from Valhalla by Thor, so it's not without precedent for someone to return. Though Loki's body isn't in any shape to come back TO, so that's a problem.

    But I do feel that he shouldn't create a new body outside of Laufey, or whatever. it would kinda spoil the rebirth symbolism, I think he needs a violent rebirth that sort of symbolically destroys the aspects he dislikes about himself, by killing Laufey in the process. So i think he has to.... somehow... fix the body that's in there.

    This also makes his "I'm never going to Valhalla" comments in the Hel arc have some ironic foreshadowing to them. He thinks he is not worthy to go to Valhalla, and never will be, so he said that. He's got it in his head again, and the last issue issue backs that up, that he's just kinda doomed to always be a bad person, so Valhalla probably felt like a ridiculous notion to him. But though he's destined for Valhalla, at least with this death, he's still not going there, we know that because of the solo. so foreshadowing.

    Also - does this mean Tyr is all alone in Valhalla right now with the Einherjar? could the God of War lead them to battle?
    Last edited by Raye; 04-19-2019 at 01:12 AM.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    wow! long time no see! i think the new series will be very different from Agent of Asgard, just based on what I read of Black Panther vs Deadpool, but different doesn't mean bad. We'll see. Ewing can be funny for sure, but Kibblesmith is way more humor focused. It could be that it was in part just the fact that he was writing Deadpool, but it was pretty out there even for him, (he fused a zebra's head into his arm stump, among other things, it was totally nuts, but in a good way) but there was also some emotion underlying the humor, with Wade wanting to be better, but not knowing how, and Black Panther initially thinking he was irredeemable, but eventually deciding Wade could never be able to be better if never given a chance. Gee, does that sound like it might be a theme that could be applicable to another character? It was also very meta, which would also fit Loki. I mean writers don't use the same themes or tone with every book they write, so he may go a different direction, but it does demonstrate that he gets certain themes that would work well with Loki. My biggest concern is his voice, i am apparently pretty particular about that, and there is just no way to predict how well he will get how Loki talks these days.

    As for how he comes back, that I am not sure about, but I am now pretty sure why he's still "alive"


    a few more shower thoughts (and yes, I am quoting myself again. I'm on to something here, i think):

    It may be possible to reconcile this with the reincarnation angle in two ways, that I can think of. One - Loki was written out of the Books of Hel by Hela.... Hela wasn't in charge of Hel since Angela took her throne, though. Balder or (more likely) Karnilla may have written him back IN. It may even have been a part of her deal with him when Balder was resurrected, we never saw what they said to each other. Two - It IS the Books of Hel. It may ONLY apply if he is destined for Hel specifically, not Valhalla. (kind of a shitty loophole but whatever)

    And yes, this does mean he actually is dead, and thus harder to bring back. But with no Valkyries, he's got some time to figure something out. It's likely all the other dead destined for Valhalla are in the same sort of dream like in between space he spent most of the issue in, he just forced himself out when most others will happily bide their time in their little dream. And Jane was brought back from Valhalla by Thor, so it's not without precedent for someone to return. Though Loki's body isn't in any shape to come back TO, so that's a problem.

    But I do feel that he shouldn't create a new body outside of Laufey, or whatever. it would kinda spoil the rebirth symbolism, I think he needs a violent rebirth that sort of symbolically destroys the aspects he dislikes about himself, by killing Laufey in the process. So i think he has to.... somehow... fix the body that's in there.

    This also makes his "I'm never going to Valhalla" comments in the Hel arc have some ironic foreshadowing to them. He thinks he is not worthy to go to Valhalla, and never will be, so he said that. He's got it in his head again, and the last issue issue backs that up, that he's just kinda doomed to always be a bad person, so Valhalla probably felt like a ridiculous notion to him. But though he's destined for Valhalla, at least with this death, he's still not going there, we know that because of the solo. so foreshadowing.

    Also - does this mean Tyr is all alone in Valhalla right now with the Einherjar? could the God of War lead them to battle?
    Hey Raye! Yeah, been awhile. Thanks for the rundown on Kibblesmith's writing. I haven't read that series or any of his other writing, but it sounds like he can do well with a character like Loki and the complexities and depth that are a part of him. I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what Kibblesmith comes up with in terms of stories.

    As for your theories on Loki's demise and return, yeah, that all makes sense. I do remember him getting his name stricken from the Book of Her and with the Valkyries out of commission, it definitely can give him time to figure a way out and the loophole of not being actually dead. I can see this working in Loki's favor as a way to find a way back and to pull his body back together or create a new body, not sure how that would work in this situation. I can definitely see him reattaching and healing his wounds and body and finding a way out. Plus with the war raging, and so much chaos, it might also give him the use of energies and conditions he might not otherwise had with the 10 realms at peace and everyone where they should be. So all the chaos could work in his favor. Great job on the shower thoughts!!
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  4. #244
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Healing magic isn't really Loki's specialty, and we don't even know if he can do magic in his current state, but yeah, he doesn't have a lot of options available to him at this point, so he's gonna have to do it. He's got 2 choices that I can see - 1) "live" in agony until... something happens. the Valkyries come for him, someone rescues him. whatever. And with the Valkyries all dead, who knows how long that will be. And I don't think he even knows that's the reason right now, he's in too deep a funk to think he's set to go to Valhalla, and even if he did know, he has no way of knowing the Valkyries all died. All he knows is he can't fully die. 2) Pull himself together, literally and figuratively, revive himself through sheer determination, and kick some ass. But if he is destined for Valhalla, I think he has to be made aware of that somehow, it could be the kick in the pants he needs to pull himself together, because it would be a sign that he's being too hard on himself, that he's not as bad as he thinks.

    *edit - Maybe Brunnhilde's spirit can come talk to him. Not like she can move on either, and she and the other Valkyries would know what's up. I know she doesn't like him much, but they were sorta-kinda teammates until very recently, and if she knew he was destined for Valhalla...

    It is possible that the war creates some magic he can tap into though, yeah. in the Valkyrie interviews, Ewing said it says that Jane's new weapon Undrjarn (seems to loosely translate into 'wondrous metal/iron) was "forged in the fires of the Realm-War" so the war led to this new weapon whose to say there can't be some other things as well?

    A few more thoughts. this Valhalla thing is apparently a deep rabbit hole...

    First, got to thinking about the Hel arc in Thor, and how Thor went to Valhalla in order to get the Valkyries to help fight Sindr. And thought, what if Loki is borrowing this plan from Thor? What if he is trying to get to the afterlife in order to get the dead to fight for him? Fits with the myths, after all. And realized his final words in the issue could be interpreted in VASTLY different ways depending on the situation. His intent changes things enormously. If he sacrificed himself without planning for what came next for himself, then his final thoughts are him thinking the world is better off without him, and that's sad. But if it was because it was part of a plan, then his final thoughts are more 'oh no, my plan is fucked, i need to die for this to work' I don't think him doing it as part of a plan necessarily bars him from going to Valhalla, or Thor would not have been able to make the trip earlier. I think it would only bar him that if the plan was selfish. Because he has sort of sacrificed himself before, couple times, actually, but he never went to Valhalla. So there is something different about this time. It could be that fate being offline or something changed things, but I think it's more likely that his motivation is different this time. Before, he did it with a self serving goal in mind, he sacrificed his life and in the process saved people, but only because he wanted to use that as part of an elaborate PR campaign for himself, so at the end of the day, it was selfish, even if it accomplished some good. (and Kid Loki sacrificing himself is a special situation) So if he sacrificed himself here with the genuine intent to help someone other than just himself as the primary motivation, regardless of it being part of a larger plan or not, then it's him being selfless. Which is a big step for Loki. Looking back at the issue, I think him just acting in the moment to save Freyja was his only goal, it fits with his dialogue to himself better, but it was still kind of an interesting thought.

    And it also got me to thinking about the themes of Aaron's run as a whole, and what I was talking about earlier about status quo. As we approach the end of Aaron's run, and the threads start coming together, it is becoming more and more apparent what the themes are, and a big one seems to be examining status quo. The whole run has played with the idea of roles that always need to be filled, Thor being the primary one, but also Loki, and now we have the Valkyries being killed, but there needs to be Valkyries for Valhalla to work. On the surface, this seems to be in support of status quo being maintained. And yet, Aaron's Thor has been one of the biggest status quo shakeups I can think of. (and that's one of the reasons I enjoy it, even though I know that is also the main reason some people really hate it) During his run we've seen Thor lose his hammer and it being carried by Jane for an extended period of time, and even if/when Thor gets the hammer back, he's lost an arm, leaving him forever changed by the ordeal. Thor has been trying to get his comforting and familiar status quo back, he liked where he was, but change keeps being thrust upon him, and he doesn't like it. We've seen Loki battling with his own fate and role, and he wants nothing more than to escape his status quo, but he can't, he keeps getting pulled back to it. Vicious irony, there. I think they both need to realize there is a place in the middle. The roles themselves can change. there must always be a Thor, there must always be a Loki, there must always be a Valkyrie. But whose to say those roles have to remain unchanging? why can't they change to what is best needed for the world? the type of Thor needed during the Viking age was different than the kind of Thor we need today, and the kind of Thor needed at the end of time will be different. We see this with the King Thor and Young Thor sequences. Thor's changed, but he's still Thor, he doesn't have to be stuck in place unchanging to still be Thor. Loki has changed, rather more dramatically than Thor has. Just look at this picture:


    they're all different, but are they not all still Loki? Why does the fact that there must always be a Loki have to mean that Loki always has to be a bad guy?

    It feels to me like that is all kinda meta commentary from Aaron, and is part of why I am pretty sure he won't be putting the toys back in the box like a lot of other writers do, he's going to force whoever is next to deal with some changes. It feels like he wants the Thor books to break free of the shackles of status quo and illusory change so many other books are bound by. Yeah, Thor will likely get Mjolnir back, but he'll still have that Destroyer arm, he'll still more than likely have Loki at his side, rather than as an opponent, the Valkyries will still be dead, with a new order being founded by Jane etc. Of course, he can't force the next writer to do what he wants, it's possible and even likely that it will all get reverted at some point if not by the next writer then by someone 10 years down the line. but still.

    ps. I can't believe this didn't occur to me sooner for the real theme song for the issue of Thor that just happened, but it's so obvious. blindingly obvious in hindsight. I seem to be overlooking the obvious a lot the last few days.

    Last edited by Raye; 04-19-2019 at 04:37 PM.

  5. #245
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    I guess I always assumed that that scene was Loki sort of splitting himself apart and his own mental instability making it impossible for him to control all of them. We saw this in Young Avengers, we saw it in Agent of Asgard, and it is a good way to illustrate that while Loki can be incredibly powerful and tricky, he is his worst enemy. He cannot fully control his powers, which are potentially story-breaking when they're strongest.



    Also, I found this because I'm basic LOL
    Last edited by Rosebunse; 04-19-2019 at 08:11 PM.

  6. #246
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    And this! Dear God, my little emo heart loves it LOL

  7. #247
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    I guess I always assumed that that scene was Loki sort of splitting himself apart and his own mental instability making it impossible for him to control all of them. We saw this in Young Avengers, we saw it in Agent of Asgard, and it is a good way to illustrate that while Loki can be incredibly powerful and tricky, he is his worst enemy. He cannot fully control his powers, which are potentially story-breaking when they're strongest.



    Also, I found this because I'm basic LOL
    I meansort of, but, that wasn't what I was getting at. I wasn't linking that because of what he was trying to accomplish in that scene, that's irrelevant to my point, doesn't matter. i was just linking it because it showed a lot of his different incarnations in one image. Why does he have all those different versions of himself to split off and make illusions of in the first place? Why is it that when he did that, they fought, because they disagreed about what to do? Because he's changed a WHOLE LOT over time. That Loki can split all those off of himself and most of them represent who he was at some point in time, and it doesn't even include all of them, Lady Loki isn't in there, for example, demonstrates how much he has changed. (and yes technically at least one of those is an alternate dimension version, but it still illustrates the point) Sure, some of them are more different than others, and he's had a much more dramatic change recently than he had before that, where it was more of a slow development over time, but still.

    Also, videos seem to be region restricted
    Last edited by Raye; 04-19-2019 at 08:53 PM.

  8. #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I meansort of, but, that wasn't what I was getting at. I wasn't linking that because of what he was trying to accomplish in that scene, that's irrelevant to my point, doesn't matter. i was just linking it because it showed a lot of his different incarnations in one image. Why does he have all those different versions of himself to split off and make illusions of in the first place? Why is it that when he did that, they fought, because they disagreed about what to do? Because he's changed a WHOLE LOT over time. That Loki can split all those off of himself and most of them represent who he was at some point in time, and it doesn't even include all of them, Lady Loki isn't in there, for example, demonstrates how much he has changed. (and yes technically at least one of those is an alternate dimension version, but it still illustrates the point) Sure, some of them are more different than others, and he's had a much more dramatic change recently than he had before that, where it was more of a slow development over time, but still.

    Also, videos seem to be region restricted
    I'm sorry that it's restricted. It's basically JiM set to Florence and the Machine.

    And Lady Loki was there at some point. She was just fighting Jane.

  9. #249
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah i know, but again, I was just linking to the image because it conveniently had a bunch of them all in one place, it was just easier than digging up links to many different images of Loki at different points in time. Ignore the story it was in, it's just about the picture.

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Yeah i know, but again, I was just linking to the image because it conveniently had a bunch of them all in one place, it was just easier than digging up links to many different images of Loki at different points in time. Ignore the story it was in, it's just about the picture.
    I'm sorry

    I want to debate so bad but I am tired AF from work.

  11. #251
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    It's fine, I'm just making sure what I was trying to say is clear is all

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    OK, so now that I'm fully conscious, I think I can articulate my thoughts a little better: I agree with you that he doesn't agree with the other versions of himself because he's changed, but I still think the imagine and concept showcases thay Loki is in conflict with himself and is unable to reconcile the different aspects of his personality into one whole. Unlike Thor, I think Loki did find that middle ground, only to find that it still wasn't enough, thay he was still falling into old patterns that didn't fit him anymore. But he was also refusing to take the necessary steps towards truly changing.

    This is part of why his stabbing Freya is treated so negatively; he didn't just stab his mother, but by not telling anyone and running away, he just did what he always does.

    Of course, this isn't just Loki. Freya, Odin, Thor, and Jane are all in this position where they feel like they want to move forward or change their positions, but various circumstsnces and their own personalities are holding them back.

    What makes Loki different is that his powers allow us to see that conflict and, again, it's in many ways a contination of what's happened to him before.

    Loki is quite mentally disturbed. I don't think that's a knock against him or Aaron, but I think it's become obvious over the past couple of issues that we have a Loki who, like Thor, is very depressed. And unlike Thor, Loki doesn't have a support system. He's actually ruined what support system he might have had and has just continually put himself in situations where he's gotten hurt.

    His apparent attempt at suicide is still confusing to me. As Raye says, it does look like he's both trying to weaponized his own reincarnation while at the same time he's clearly acting selflessly.

    Him being stuck because there are no Valkyries makes sense, but he was already chewed up before they came into battle.

    The Valkyries could have been gearing up for war and just unable to grab his soul. They may have thought they had time saved for later.

    But given Loki's disturbed mind and buried subconscious thoughts, I still wonder if he's not dying because he doesn't feel like he deserves another chance.

    Kid Loki was his chance and he blew it. Now he's seen once again that he just hurts and hurts people, so why keep trying?

  13. #253
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    But why does he have to reconcile the parts into a whole? Those past selves represent bad things that he probably shouldn't want to incorporate into his present self. Acknowledge them as who he used to be, own the fact that he used to be a bad person, sure, he can use his bad aspects to be better in the present in that way. But he doesn't need to incorporate them into his present self beyond that. Finding a compromise isn't the best option when one side is clearly wrong. The correct choice between good and evil isn't 'a bit of both', its 'good'. I know Loki is a gray area character so does live in this world of making murky middle ground compromises, and I think it's part of what makes him interesting as a character. But still, that doesn't mean I think he's right. It is sometimes best to just disavow who we used to be, if who we used to be was an asshole. Though, I am not getting the impression he's even really trying to incorporate all the parts. Or at least he's realizing he shouldn't have tried that at the end of Agent of Asgard, that he made the wrong call there. He clearly hated his past self in this issue of Thor, I don't think he really wants that petty, vindictive asshole who causes pain and chaos for pleasure to be a part of who he is now, and nor should he. I don't think these times where he encounters or shows his past self represents a present conflict, so much as it represents his self loathing for who he used to be, and he thinks these past selves that he hates still represent who he is now, even though he has actually moved beyond who he used to be.

    I also think you are making him come across as more disturbed than he actually is. There is some there, but you're making it come across like he's just completely nuts, and he's not. It is possible to be confused and misguided without being crazy. He's mostly just depressed and confused, imo. I know he saw visions and stuff, but that only equals crazy if there isn't actually something there to see, and those illusions were quite visible, as he intended them to be. and I think people get a pass for seeing stuff when they are dying, pretty common occurrence. I know in YA and AOA his guilt took physical form, but some of that is just because it works well in comics as a medium, it's more interesting to look at than just captions, and I think he is getting better on that front. He also hasn't done it since. He's getting better, even if he doesn't quite realize it.

    And Annabelle's helmet fizzled out, so Loki died, just a moment before being transported to Valhalla, where the rest of the Valkyries had already gathered. it appears Loki may have died just as they were gathering to fly in.

    I think it's that he wants to die because he doesn't think he deserves another chance, because he thinks he is doomed to just be awful, not the other way around. If it is something about himself that is keeping him from moving on, or that he will tap into to pull himself back together, it will be a realization that he is being too hard on himself. Depression lies. (read this: https://www.blurtitout.org/2017/08/2...sion-tells-us/ and see how much it lines up with his thoughts in this issue) He said it right in the issue, he's really great at lying to himself. It's just that he used to tell himself lies to make himself feel better about the things he did, and still does sometimes, but he spent a whole issue here telling lies to himself to make him feel worse, by focusing on all the bad he's done and fears of the future, while ignoring the good, and the progress he has made. He's made mistakes recently sure, but it hasn't all been bad. And I don't mean just things like the Freyja situation where it's really murky. His fixing magic saved thousands of lives during the battle, for instance, even if it was Strange that actually used the magic, but he ignored that. He was a big help in Hel with Thor, they could not have won there without his help. And so on. I think he needs to see that while he does fuck up sometimes, he also gets it right at other times, and those times count too.
    Last edited by Raye; 04-20-2019 at 12:42 PM.

  14. #254
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    an old french cover with Loki!

    Couv_14277.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    But why does he have to reconcile the parts into a whole? Those past selves represent bad things that he probably shouldn't want to incorporate into his present self.
    Plus it's pretty clear that these past selves are really truly not real, even by Loki standards. These past selves are the big lies he tells himself. Really, it's that he tells himself that he is both the same as these versions of himself and that he's not. He's confronted with the awful past version of himself that did awful things just for entertainment (viking), the present self that killed Kid Loki, and the future self that would kill ... everything. Present Loki is basically not any of those versions of himself, and they're his biggest fears and a fantastic excuse to give up on himself.

    But the big refrain in that issue is that these are all lies he tells himself. Pleasant lies, no less. So the lie he's telling himself right now is LOKI MUST DIE.

    How I read it is that he actually believed he was sacrificing himself in this one last big heroic thing that would actually kill him (no norns -- his fate is up to him, so it probably doesn't matter that he's not in the book of death because the rules are broken) but then he survived. As soon as he realizes he survived, he sticks with convincing himself that dying was the right thing to do and in fact the only way to fix things. He doesn't want to deal with his past and he definitely doesn't want to deal with his possible future. His survival just proved that he can't die a hero, so he's doubled down on that idea and so suicide is the only worthwhile thing he can do right now. But that's a comforting lie.

    It's not about compromise or synthesis or reconciliation. That's what got him here. It's about accepting that a different sort of Loki can still be the "sharpening stone." Not honing through battle -- that's how swords are dulled. But first he has to stop lying to himself that there's only one way out of this little pickle.
    Last edited by A Silver Quickly; 04-20-2019 at 01:38 PM.

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