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  1. #481
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    I had thoughts of Balder turning heel before Aaron brought him back. He did enjoy driving the Hell Charger a biiiit too much.
    Yeah, he did seem to be having a little too much fun with the evil demon car.

    I wonder how long Aaron's final story is, how deep into all this he can reasonably get, or if he's kind of setting things up for the next writer.

  2. #482
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I ramble some more. Even though it seems no one but me cares about this. But this is the sort of meta stuff I love, and the Balder thing just has sort of crystallized in my mind that this is probably what Aaron's whole run has been building to. And it means very good things for Loki, if it pans out.

    When you think about it, it really ties into the core of Norse myth, and what I think Aaron is trying to say with his run on Thor. The thing to remember about Norse myth is that it is at it's core cyclical. It's baked right into the core myths, the gods do their thing for a span of time, Ragnarok hits, they get reset back to square one to start all over again. Rinse, repeat. And Marvel has gone all in with this in the comics, where they have made the Ragnarok cycle an explicit part of the Thor comics, in part probably because it fits perfectly with their philosophy of 'the illusion of change' where characters achieve temporary character growth, but then are reset so that the overall status quo is maintained. Some details may get changed long term, but the broad strokes, the core of the character, almost always snaps back sooner or later. But not everyone is on board with the 'illusion of change' Peter David expressed very well why this can be extremely limiting to to stories, years ago: https://www.peterdavid.net/2012/12/2...ion-of-change/ how it has lead to a jaded audience that never expects anything to have a lasting impact etc. Look at us, constantly worrying when the change to Loki will be undone, every time a new writer gets their hands on him, because that's just how superhero comics work. And there certainly are writers out there who would revert everything back in a heartbeat, if given the opportunity, it happens all the time. Also some fans that really do want their faves to remain in place forever, too.

    But as I think on this, I think Aaron is actually making commentary on this cyclical illusion of change, and using the Ragnarok cycle to do it. What Aaron seems to be proposing here is: what if it's possible to continue the cycle, but also keep character growth? But in order to do that, the characters have to abandon their old roles and latch on to new ones. For the cycle to continue, for balance to be maintained, those roles they abandon have to be filled by a different character. "There must always be a Thor" but for Thor Odinson to actually move forward as a character, it can't be him, or he will just end up repeating the same beats over and over, never really moving forward. Of course, in Thor's case, that's not so bad. He was so desperate to regain Mjolnir because he had a damn good role, a comfortable role, a rewarding role where he helped people and was loved, who wouldn't want to hang on to that? But that doesn't mean it wasn't limiting, he still just kept repeating the same beats over and over. There must always be a Loki, but for Loki to hang on to the growth he's achieved over the past several years, it can't be Loki himself in that role any more, or he will end up being reset back to square one as Thor's jealous brother, looking to bring him down. Loki, unlike Thor, is the character that most wants to escape his old role, because his role led to pain, repeated defeats, causing harm to others, causing people to hate him, etc. Of course he wants to move beyond that. But both of Thor and Loki are stuck in a cyclical and repetitive role, it's just one is a comfortable one, and the other is not. For the shape of the story to remain, though, those roles must be filled. At least in terms of the Thor side of things, where myth shapes reality, so leaving those roles behind is hard to do, or the structure of the universe is literally put at risk. But there may be a workaround, in that the ROLES have to be filled, but it doesn't necessarily need to be filled by the same person every time. Loki can keep his character development, but only if he steps into Thor's role, who in turn steps into Odin's role, and Balder steps into Loki's role, and so on. A big game of musical chairs with the roles of the gods in order to keep the whole structure intact while at the same time allowing for personal growth to be kept. Ragnarok cycle continues, (WotR being the latest 'Ragnarok') but the characters are allowed to change, by stepping into new roles for he new cycle.

    Loki, surprisingly, may have landed the sweet-ass Thor role, the hero of the story, probably the most coveted of all the roles. But it means, if the next writer continues with this theme, (which is a very big IF, really, Aaron's desires mean little here) Loki's stuck as the hero at least until the next Ragnarok. This is a huge deal, even if it does seem Ragnaroks are coming with alarming frequency. Given Loki's rebellious nature, this could be a bit of a problem, but thankfully his predecessor was no stranger to a bit of rebellion, so it should still work out. Balder, assuming my speculation is correct, may have drawn the short straw, by landing Loki's role of bitter and jealous brother of 'Thor' which will lead down a dark path and bring about the next Ragnarok. (even if inadvertently. I mean Loki didn't INTEND to create Malekith who in turn brought about the War of the Realms this time, but.... he still did get the ball rolling there, even if he didn't intend to, and regrets it) So it's good for Loki and Thor, but bad for Balder, unfortunately. But it could still be interesting to see it play out, considering where Balder started out as a literal god of light, and all. I also think it's interesting in that we will be more inclined to see Balder's actions in a sympathetic light, which I think will give the stories more emotional weight than just 'oh, Loki's being an evil shit... again' without really giving much thought to why he was doing what he was doing. He had become so defined by his role that his actions ceased needing real motivation beyond simply being Loki, and a handwave here and there about him being jealous and vindictive by nature. But Balder will need some real motivation to make it work, which will in theory add a lot more emotional depth to the stories, it will make any bad things he does actually hurt, rather than just 'enh, just Loki being Loki'. So while it's bad for the character, I think it's good for the stories.

    But what is find interesting here is that though they are kind of stepping into pre-defined roles that have a set of responsibilities and all, that doesn't mean they can't bring something unique to those roles, as long as the basic broad strokes are maintained. It also still feels fairly natural for the most part. sure, there may be a moment where the transition to the new role becomes official somehow, but their actions have led to this point, with the exception of Balder who by necessity is more of a reactive thing. It's not as though Loki's going from full on bad guy to hero in an instant, there was a progression there. Thor likewise had to go through this ordeal to make him ready to take on a leadership role. Jane had to go through her time as Thor to be able to become the new Valkyrie, etc. so it all still feels natural.

  3. #483
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    I do find it interesting, I'm just not sure I have much to add.

    On the one hand, I would kind of dislike the idea of someone being "stuck" in a role until the next Ragnarok...if Ragnarok didn't come around so frequently these days. it would somewhat undermine the entire idea that gods could change roles. OTOH, gods live long enough that I guess it probably wouldn't seem like a long time to them. It definitely would maintain the cycle without making it fixed, however, making the role more of a mantle than a single individual--which already happened when Jane had the hammer. So, we've already seen that people can take on different roles (even within the same ragnarok cycle?).

    Last issue of WoTR really strengthened the case of Thor for Odin, given the symbolic meaning of impaling Thor to the world tree (since Odin gained his wisdom in a similar manner, in his case, by hanging). Odin's survival does thus far makes me wonder, but I suppose he could always retire if he survives.

    My biggest contra-argument to this idea is honestly a logistics one (based on a lot of assumptions that we've made ;p): If Loki is King of Jotunheim and Thor is King of Asgard, then won't they both be equally busy? IE, what's to stop Thor from being Thor? OTOH, I guess that's not necessarily how mythos works (logic).

    I'll be sad if Balder takes on Loki's role, I've always liked him because I feel like he's the third wheel (ironic for supposedly being the most loved of all the gods). This, however, does not mean that it would be a bad story. Inherently, it's an interesting idea and I agree that it would give more depth to Loki's role than "just being Loki".

  4. #484
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, if this was a case where there would be thousands of years in a role, that may be a problem, but it seems like every run ends with a Ragnarok like event, so... also, as you pointed out, i guess Jane did take up Thor's role for a while pre-ragnarok, so even if Loki leaves before Ragnarok, it may be ok as long as someone else can take up the mantle.... maybe. she may have just been a bandaid solution, and it couldn't have been her in the role when 'Ragnarok' came. That may be why the universe at the end of time is stuck in that sort of entropic slow decline. It may have gone too long without a Ragnarok, and needs one to reboot the cycle. It was mentioned that Thor and his granddaughters thought Loki was dead after some event which they never elaborated on, so it may be that he walked away, and things got stuck. But we also see no sign of Balder in the future, and a Ragnarok needs a catalyst, and if he's in Loki's place that means it would be him. So it could be a twofold problem, there. Maybe at some point Balder is... eliminated, and then the cycle is broken, but that doesn't end up being a good thing. Also, note, Thor has 3 granddaughters. Frigg, the Thor-like one, Ellisiv, the intelligent sorceress, and Atli, the rebellious troublemaker. So there are 3 people there to take up the 3 core mantles at the end of time, which would fit with the Ragnarok cycle having gotten stuck at some point. Presumably when Loki at the end of time goes for Thor, kickstarting Ragnarok, that will get things going again, with one of the granddaughters (i would assume Frigg) becoming the new Thor, so the cycle can continue.

    And yeah, the last issue with Thor and the World Tree really cemented him in Odin's place, and which really kind of cements the whole role switching thing going on. But having Odin and Freyja being revealed to have survived does throw a wrench in things. they have to either retire or die for reals.

    It would be sad to see Balder go down that road, he's not a bad guy, and he's been shit on so much. But the more i think about it, the more sense it makes, precisely because he's gotten shit on so often, which gives him potential motivation. Where I was getting hung up before was, i could see how Thor taking Odin's place would work, even before the World Tree, we could see it going that way, with King Thor in the future and all, that was telegraphed years ago, and once we saw Loki with Mjolnir, i mean, that puts him in Thor's place, and though it seems surprising at first thought, it fits with his quest to escape his old role and be a better person, especially since the 'Thor' role seems to come with a side of learning on the job. But Loki's old role of antagonist was hanging me up, because I kept trying to think of someone who was already a bad guy, or had been a bad guy in the past, so like Malekith or Cul, or someone like that, but it didn't seem to quite fit. Because the role is more than just being a bad guy, it's also the family connection, and that the motivation is rooted in jealousy and resentment based on that familial relationship. It doesn't quite feel like Loki's role without those elements, i think the 'Thor' has to feel betrayed and hurt by someone they care about attacking them for it to really fit, so they keep giving them second chances. And I think the 'Thor' has to have had a role in creating their own worst enemy. Like, Thor was an asshole to Loki when they were kids, which in a way shaped what Loki eventually became. And as much as it pains me to admit it, Balder just fits all of that the best. But I don't think it makes him a bad guy, at least not to start. I think his problems with Loki are perfectly justified when you look at the situation from his position, and many people would totally agree with him. And that's why it works. It's just that with time, it could reach a point where it builds and builds until he goes too far. But with comic book time in play, that could be years and years off.

    edit - in other news, we have a blurry image from the new Loki show:


    https://io9.gizmodo.com/we-love-this...com-1835377680

    so looks like at least at some point it takes a stop in the 70's.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-11-2019 at 06:41 AM.

  5. #485
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    I assume that Odin and Freya are just going to sort of go on vacation for a bit. Just go off and enjoy being with each other for a bit.

    Thor being in Odin's position doesn't really mean he'd be as busy as Loki. Asgard has a much more defined government and there are people who can do certain jobs far better than Thor or Odin could. Loki, on the other hand, would be dealing with a society that doesn't really have a real government and where most of its members aren't educated at all. At least, its top members. Plus, Loki has a much more controlling nature than Thor, so I imagine he would just naturally want to be more involved.

    Baldur is a logical choice, but I would need a bit more from his turn. It would need to be more than just the little bit we have seen. Baldur has always been one of those people who can really survive and overcome anything life throws at him, so what could break him? Unless fate just decides to make him a villain, which I suppose could work.

    That 70s setting even for one episode will create enough fan fuel to last tumblr thousands of years.

  6. #486
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I think they will have to do a bit more than go on vacation, or the changing of roles means little to nothing. I think they have to officially and fully step aside (or die) for it to have any meaning. I mean, they can do that AND go on vacation, but... it just doesn't mean much if they're back in a month or so, wanting control back from Thor, and everyone knows that's what will be happening, 'watch over things for a couple months' just doesn't have the same impact as 'you're king of Asgard now', you know? The message seems to be that in order for things to move forward, people have to step into new roles and it just loses impact if it's always intended to be temporary. I know that it's usually the case in comics that change is temporary, but that's exactly why it has to be permanent, or the meta message is lost.

    I think Asgard would make Thor more busy than Loki, actually. Having a more advanced government doesn't necessarily make it easier to manage, it just means there's more problems and subordinates to keep track of. Also, Asgard isn't JUST Asgard, it is the hub for all the realms, all other rulers operate below Asgard's authority. Being king of Asgard is like being the president of the US, while the king/queen of one of the other realms would be like being governor of a state. Also, while Jotunheim doesn't have much in the way of a government, it also doesn't need much of a government because it's a tribal society that just... kinda exists. They'd have no use for a bureaucracy, they aren't clamoring for schools and infrastructure and whatnot. They're stuck in the stone age and seem to like it that way. Where that one may get complicated is in negotiating truces between the different types of giants, since they'd likely be at war with each other quite a bit. We saw a bit of this with Laufey and Loki and that meeting with the... i want to say mountain? giants that went disastrously.

    As for Balder, I mean I don't know how it will be handled, assuming I'm correct about that, but if it were me, it would definitely be a slow burn. I don't foresee a light switch moment where it's like he's a bad guy all of a sudden, nor do i see it as him being handed a role by someone else and being told 'ok, you're taking over Loki's role, so you gotta be a bad guy now' I think it will just kind of happen over time, and none of them may even be aware that it's happening, until it's too late. There may even be a red herring character, like Malekith, or maybe Enchantress or someone, that they THINK is the new Loki, but really not so much. I think it would be far more interesting to see how Balder ends up there, little by little. Like, Dany on Game of Thrones, controversial opinion, I actually didn't have any problem at all with the fact that she turned heel. In fact, I was actually expecting it to happen, I called that 2 seasons ago. There was a fair bit to support it, and not just in a foreshadowing way either, going back to season 2, and it fit the message the show/books was trying to get across. BUT, i get why people were mad, because they rushed things at the end, so the turn didn't feel earned for a lot of viewers, especially those who actually believed she was a good guy, and missed a lot of the earlier signs that she had some definite tyrant leanings. I think they needed way more time to ease her into that role, and explore more of her mindset as to why she did that. We needed a bit more Breaking Bad treatment in there. Same goes for Balder, it needs to be more Walter White and less Dany. if Loki spent close to 10 years slowly turning face bit by bit before being granted Thor's role, I think Balder needs something similar but in reverse. While I can in my head put myself in his position and imagine what would likely be going through his head if he saw Loki being granted that kind of prestigious position, while he was overlooked and left on the fringes, I think it needs to be put on the page for it to really mean anything. I don't think Balder can support a solo, but he can certainly have scenes in Thor and Loki's books to support the turn.

    I do think there may be some flash-forwards in Aaron's final arc, which i suspect will deal heavily with the lasting effects of the role switches, that reveals the turn in the future. But I think that in the present, it should be a slow burn. So the readers may know what's coming, but seeing how it happens will take a long time. This is a little risky though, since it relies heavily on the next writer going along with the plan.
    Last edited by Raye; 06-11-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  7. #487
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    some interesting speculation and thoughts on the new show. Nothing too groundbreaking but a good summary of what to expect and how it ties into Endgame

  8. #488

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    so will the TV series adapt the Vote Loki mini-series from the comics a few years back? Possibly add on to it?

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypestyle View Post
    so will the TV series adapt the Vote Loki mini-series from the comics a few years back? Possibly add on to it?
    As much as we didn't really care for that story-mostly because of the art-it would be prime for a TV setting. Much easier to work with than JiM or AoA.

    Also, I read the Giant Men issue today and I was wondering if we would get any fall out from that in other books. Laufey will definitely run out of soldiers, but it sets it up that even if all of the Frost Giants on Earth are killed, more can easily be made.

  10. #490
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Ice giants, not Frost Giants. She was clear that there is a distinction. Ice giants are made, Frost giants are born. And with Ymir freed, there won't be any more made, unless he does it himself, or Loki captures him again. But since they are leaning into him being a hero, i don't think that will be the case, he'd surely become unworthy if he did that. I did find it interesting though that Ymir was actually being held prisoner, and they set him free. He could definitely play a part in Loki's book, just not in the way we were expecting. It may be that the 'snowman' character is an Ice Giant. While I din't think Loki would harvest Ymir like in this story, he may get ahold of a shard. I don't think 3 issues was nearly enough for this story though everything felt so crammed in, especially in this issue, and had to rely on some clunky exposition in order to get it wrapped up, so about all we can tell right now is that though Laufey may die, Ymir is apparently still alive. but Squirrel Girl seems to be doing fine with a fairly similar plot... though it's got an additional issue in the arc and fewer characters.

    And I liked Vote Loki fine, fugly art doesn't mean the story was bad, I can look past bad art a lot more easily than bad writing, personally. and bad art would have zero impact on adapting it for TV, anyway, it's Tom Hiddleston either way. It might fit with what we know of the show, but I think it may be a stretch. could be funny tho.

    anyway.... back to the legacy talk, there's this:



    KING THOR #1 (OF 4)

    JASON AARON (W) • ESAD RIBIC (A/C)
    SUPERSTARS JASON AARON & ESAD RIBIC CONCLUDE THEIR EPIC THOR STORY!
    The creators of the legendary THOR: GOD OF THUNDER series that kicked off one of the most epic runs in Marvel history are back together for one last ride with the almighty Lord of Asgard! Seven years ago, Jason and Esad introduced the Thor of the far future, All-Father of a broken realm and a dying universe, as he stood in battle against the Butcher of Gods, wielder of All-Black the Necrosword. Now that nefarious blade has returned, in the hands of Thor’s all-time greatest enemy – his brother, Loki – for one final, cataclysmic showdown. Behold the book no comics fan should miss – the celebration of the end of a truly Marvelous era.
    32 PGS./RATED T+
    Last edited by Raye; 06-12-2019 at 07:36 PM.

  11. #491
    Kinky Lil' Canine Snoop Dogg's Avatar
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    vote loki was lit
    and canon

    Isn't it weird how we've known about King Thor vs All-BLoki since 2016 in Civil War II?

  12. #492
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, but we still don't know the context, how do we get from present day Loki to the one at the end of time? Especially since it seems to be Aaron who is setting up the final face turn push. I just hope whatever the explanation is, it doesn't take away freedom from what Kibblesmith and other writers in the future will be doing. (and this goes for Thor too, for that matter) I just don't want it to be a case where it takes away creative choice because the characters have their future set in stone. I also just don't like the idea in Loki's case in particular that he really is doomed to always be the bad guy, and that his quest to escape fate is pointless. But given everything else that Aaron has done with the leadup, i suspect there is some kind of twist there, so I'll see where it goes.

    and from the future to the past:

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/06...shed-one-shot/

    Legends Roger Stern & Ron Lim Unite for AVENGERS: LOKI UNLEASHED! #1
    The new one-shot debuts this September!

    New York, NY—June 12, 2019—This September, two titanic comic creators team up for a one-shot epic that pays tribute to a legendary Avengers run! Classic AVENGERS writer Roger Stern pens an all-new adventure set during his time on the series – with INFINITY WAR’S Ron Lim providing the art!

    The Siege of Avengers Mansion is over, and the Avengers are battered and in disarray. It’s the worst time of all for Loki to discover a new source of mystic energies – one that connects to another classic villain and that will have dire consequences for all of reality unless those Avengers who remain standing are able to intercede!

    Don’t miss this 80th Anniversary Special, coming to comic shops this September!

    For more information on AVENGERS: LOKI UNLEASHED! #1 please visit Marvel.com.

    AVENGERS: LOKI UNLEASHED! #1
    Written by ROGER STERN
    Art by RON LIM
    Cover by PATCH ZIRCHER

    So, from the end of time to the past old school Loki. Still waiting to see what he's doing in the present day come September.

  13. #493
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Good, for pain and saddness add flavor >

  15. #495
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    though thinking on it, 'not happy' could also mean 'angry' or something, even tho my mind first jumped to 'sad'

    in City of Heroes news, I mean, I've been leveling him and he's 29 (and i stopped there because i want to do some contacts that get blocked if you hit 30) and he's ready to turn face, I got him to 'rogue' so he can go to the hero side and so some content there, but had to wait there for a bit so i could bet the 'Trickster' badge (need to stay Rogue for 7 days to get it) because OBVIOUSLY i needed that as my badge title. And am now just collecting some redside badges and finishing some storyarcs before i go hero probably in the next day or so. And tonight, did the Positron Taskforce. Coincidentally my 'mom' was on the team, and this happened:


    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...59860872147134

    I mean, at least we died together. She was comic book based and everything, so it was kinda cute.surprised Freyja of all characters apparently needs special characters added to the name, even misspelled, to get the name, tho. I was kinda hoping to get plain 'Loki' but at least I got this correctly spelled with no extra characters.

    Dark/Dark remains fun and effective, which is part of the reason the team wiped there. we were fighting evil clones of ourselves and mine summoned pets and chain mezzed all the squishies.

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