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  1. #1081
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I think it's a fuzzy situation where it's kind of both. Loki lives in the MU and thus is bound by the rules of the universe and his relationships to the other characters, if he didn't the universe would fray around him. But he's also been pretty meta over the past few years and we as readers know that for the change to his characters to stick long term, it has to be accepted by the readers. I think in his case it's sort of that the perceptions of the characters in universe usually end up as a mirror of the perceptions of the readers. And while Loki certainly has fans that understand where he's at right now, I think in the larger sense, a lot of people either are kind of oblivious to the change, or think it's just temporary. It's far from a universally known and accepted status quo.

  2. #1082
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    That's true and I think that is another problem Loki has is that readers are split in three categories, the first being that they believe the change, the second being they are in "wait and see" type of mode and the third where they don't believe it at all and things like King Thor doesn't help with changing their minds on that because to them this is proof that no matter what Loki will always end up evil. Which is kinda why I really hope there's a twist there.

  3. #1083
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    A lot of readers just have their own ideal version of the character and this is based a lot on when you got into comics and which version you're most familiar with. With this in mind, it's actually sort of amazing that the changes have been as accepted as they are.

    There certainly was some pushback, but nothing like what we've seen with other characters.

    And some of this is because, as the King Thor storylike shows us, we can have two different versions of Loki running around and it will be fine. In a sense, we get to have our cake and eat it too. Joy for us!

  4. #1084
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Yeah, the current take definitely has supporters or he wouldn't have had a book greenlit, and the change would not have lasted as long as it did. But there will always be some fans who either just aren't really aware of the change because they don't follow the Asgard stuff very closely, and just have the old bad guy default in their heads as how Loki is, or they may be aware of it but aren't invested in it and could go either way, or Thor fans who want whatever their ideal take on the books to come back, complete with Loki's status quo as the bad guy.

    I don't think the King Thor shows that, because they aren't running around at the same time, any more than we have two Thors running around. They're being published at the same time, but one is an alt future waaaaaay in the future, and is only going to be around for a few issues. There are definitely limits with how far you could go with that and have them both in the main continuity at the same time. You couldn't have him just pop up acting dramatically different from one appearance to the next without some kind of in universe explanation, unless you wanted to confuse and piss off fans. If they are multiple characters, one Loki will always be the 'main' one, which the others will be considered secondary copies, as was the case during Agent of Asgard where King Loki was the antagonist, or Asgardians of the Galaxy where "Kid Loki" was a fancy illusion. And I don't think they should really go further than what they have already done, because it would get quite confusing, both for readers and the characters in universe, and more than likely all but one would end up in limbo or dead rather than deal with the headache. It's ok as a temporary thing once in a while, but it shouldn't be a permanent thing.

    the new status quo isn't quite the same thing, since it's all still just.... Loki, he's just appearing in more places than would normally be plausible, same as Wolverine being on 16 teams at once. but since i brought it up, he has actually done this already, sort of. Except he was doing it consciously. When he created the "Kid Loki" illusion so he could be with the Asgardians of the Galaxy AND back on Midgard/Jotunheim/wherever he was doing pretty much what is happening here, more or less. Also, with Infinity Watch, it may be that some of Wolverine's deal kinda rubbed off on Loki while they were teamed up.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-13-2019 at 10:23 AM.

  5. #1085
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    I think nostalgia has a lot to do with it as well, I suppose. There are probably those who don’t like how modern comics are written in general and want the more classic versions back which includes the old Loki.
    However, I don’t think they will ever get their wish in bringing back the classic way comics were written because we’ve moved on from that and there are more people invested in comics now a days because there is something for everybody instead of just a select few.

    I mean I know myself that King Loki, in King Thor’s future, has no bearing on the current Loki in the present timeline. I mean I see that Loki as a Loki who never really got a second chance and because of that fell into old habits because he just sort of gave up. It also didn’t help him that Thor imprisoned him. We don’t know what for and maybe we’ll truly know but if it was for something Loki didn’t actually do that would have also further is hatred and bitterness of the world around him.

    I see it more as a what if, more than anything else. Of course, this future could still come true for Current Loki, although it’s extremely unlikely.

    Truthfully, for the most part I’m not worried at all that comics or Loki will be reverted back to their status quo of their classic versions because as I said we’ve pretty much moved on from how Classic comics were written. I especially don’t think Loki will ever be reverted back because unlike before where you could only really write him as a bad guy because that’s only how he was portrayed. This Loki can be portrayed in all types of ways and writers and fans can really get the best of both worlds here.

    Also I agree about there only being one main Loki.

    Honestly though I wouldn't mind seeing Loki meet his past self, I wonder how that would go down?

    By the way when do you think we’ll get the solicits for Loki #6?
    Last edited by Lambadelta; 09-13-2019 at 11:11 AM.

  6. #1086
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    the sad thing about the nostalgia is that it's kind of more nostalgia for Thor than it is for Loki himself. I am sure old-school Loki has his fans, sure. But generally I think when people get nostalgic and want old Loki back, for most people it's less because they just loved him as a bad guy, and more because they see it as an extension of old school Thor... It's part of the reason why, though I'd love to see more time with him and his brother and other siblings, I really hope Kibblesmith focuses a lot of attention on forming connections between Loki and non-Asgardians. If Loki ends up friends, or at least frenemies, with Iron Man, Wolverine, Squirrel Girl, the Young Avengers, and so on, and that ends up leaking out beyond his book, then that kind of anchors the current characterization outside the Asgard corner of things, and makes it a little harder to revert. The Wolverine appearance coming up gives me hope in that regard, even if it is Wolverine from 200 years ago, I hope that it leads to more of them in the present. And of course a romance outside of Asgard would be the most impactful in that regard, if the character was used enough. I've said before i am kinda shipping Giant-Man right now, but sadly I don't think the new one is prominent enough yet to really do that, since he only shows up from time to time in guest appearance type roles. But on the other hand, I can't think of many other characters that would fit. If they added Raz to the Avengers or something, or to Iron-Man's cast of characters, (he is an AI expert, which would fit very well with the current status quo in Iron Man) that would help.

    Loki meeting his past self could be interesting, yeah. we kinda saw that in Thor during War of the Realms, but it was a figment of his dying mind. Having it happen for real would be interesting. Depends on the mechanics of the time travel though.

    solicits usually hit around the third wednesday of the month, though sometimes Marvel will release some of the solicits a week or so early, but there's no telling what the early solicits will be. We also have NYCC coming up which Kibblesmith is attending, so we may get some longer term teases there as well if there is some kind of Thor panel to announce the new writer for Thor's book, or something.

  7. #1087
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    I've been thinking and I think Loki sort of got lucky when it came to timing. Had Lady Loki been created a few years later or even before, I'm not sure fans would have been as kind. By the time the more conservative Thor fans realized what was happening, tumblr had gotten him, kidLoki was a thing, and the movies were successful.

    I'm not sure why so many Thor fans want the comics to be how they used to be. Thor wasn't really one of the better known characters and he and Asgard were just sort of languishing away. Rebooting Loki was a big part of why the changes were successful, because he's such a big part of that part of Marvel and if he changes, then everything else sort of has to change to accommodate him.

    So I was thinking about the curse again and I'm trying to figure out how the death part works. We know that if he dies, Loki will just come back in a few weeks to months. So how do you get around this? Is it just by turning his role into Thor? But then wouldn't he still reincarnate, just as Thor because of how they both work as gods? Do you force Loki to give up godhood entirely? Is that even a thing?

  8. #1088
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    While I do agree that if Lady Loki had happened now, those fans probably would have pitched a massive baby fit, and they probably still would if Loki went femme in an issue of Thor as opposed to Loki's own book, or got a boyfriend rather than a girlfriend, since they are likely unaware of some of the things that have been going on with Loki. But I don't think they or tumblr made a massive impact on the overall success of the current direction. They represent the polar opposite extremes, they're the vocal and visible fringes of the spectrum that a lot of people gawk at because they are so vocal and passionate about their causes, sometimes to the point of being spectacles, but they don't actually represent the majority of the fandom. Also, while Lady Loki did, as discussed a couple pages back, probably contribute to getting Loki to a place where he could turn face in that it began a trend of giving Loki a deeper characterization, I don't think Lady Loki specifically was strictly necessary to current direction, just something that deepened the characterization and began to make Loki a bit more sympathetic.

    but I do think we might have dodged a bullet due to Gillen being asked to write Young Avengers. I think if he hadn't written Young Avengers, and had Loki there, then Aaron may have gone with a villainous Loki. I mean, JiM left it open ended, Loki could have gone either way, it was Young Avengers that really cemented him on the path to turning face, and that happened right as Aaron was beginning his run on Thor.

    And nostalgia doesn't have anything to do with how popular something was, just how familiar it is to you, and what good memories you have of it. Just because Thor was like a D lister for a long while there before JMS came along, it was actually cancelled due to low sales at one point, doesn't mean people can't have fond memories of it. And some fans maybe aren't nostalgic for Thor specifically, so much as they're nostalgic for comics in general of a certain era.

    And as i said above, given what happened in WotR, I think it is just the Hel vs Valhalla destination that does it. He was written out of the Book of HEL. Not the book of Valhalla. Hence, Now and Then agreeing to make Loki a hero and give him a heroic death. For all we know they had a hand in getting him eaten by Laufey in the first place, but it didn't stick because the Valkyries up and died so he was able to pull himself back together with magic when he realized Laufey was about to destroy the earth.

  9. #1089
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    I agree. I think that timing was very important and gave the opportunities we have now with Loki. Thor had been out of the light for a few years. His title and story was being started anew which gave JMS the opportunity to do what he did. Lady Loki while some hated it, others at the time loved it as it was a great twist. But because Thor and Loki had been away from everyone's eyes for some time the concept was able to stand on it's own and flourish. You're are correct, had this been started now, it would be met with such great backlash and so many others stating that it was a forced issue and change and agenda, blah, blah, blah.

    Gillen with Kid Loki, again added another dimension to Loki that nobody cried about as Loki had died and now was reborn as a kid by Fraction. Gillen was able to craft a character and story around that idea that again added more depth to the character overall. And yes, placing him in Young Avengers helped to strengthen his character and not allow anyone else to throw him backwards after the JiM story. This I think set the path full speed to where we are now.

    AoA, the MCU and little bits here and there helped to add different dimensions to Loki that instead of people looking at him as a separate character in each version, more a different dimension of the same character. Which thankfully has only helped to add to the depth of the character.

    Where you have a strong faction of Thor fans who want the character and stories to go back to the way they used to be, I feel, and I could be wrong, that while there are various groups of Loki fans who want their particular version...Classic, JMS, JiM, AoA, MCU, etc...as the stories flow and the various dimensions of Loki seen in current incarnations, where no one group is completely satisfied (per se), each group sees a portion of their version in the current Loki. And it keeps them coming back for more. Along with good stories of course. But the character itself due it his depth of character and various dimensions of personality and history has more stability to grow and develop than many other characters.

    Again, timing before the MCU was crucial. But that timing was splendiferous in its execution. (Just couldn't resist, Lol)
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  10. #1090
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    I agree about the timing and the fact that YA was the point where it really cemented Loki’s face turn or at least the beginning of it. I think why it wasn’t cemented in JIM, is more the fact we didn’t know what would happen to Kid Loki and more importantly Ikol. I think Ikol was the issue here because for all intents and purposes it was the echo of the old Loki, the villainous Loki and he wanted to take over Kid Loki’s body or rather overwrite his mind. We had no idea if this happened what would happen with Ikol. But the direction they went in with Ikol’s character now Loki was refreshing, and it was basically the beginning of current Loki.

    I think what helps Loki’s cause and why I think the changes will stick and why I think they are largely accepted at this point, is the fact that A, it’s been a slow burn and B, he’s a character that’s shown up in a few other stuff like Squirrel Girl, The avengers, Wolverine and so on. It gives others who might not read Thor a glimpse into this new Loki.

    He really is a character you can put anywhere, and he just works and that very much helps.

    So Kibblesmith will be at NYCC? Great! I hope we get a lot of teasers for what’s coming up but even if we don’t, I like listening/reading to his views on Loki as a whole. He seems to completely get Loki’s character and seems to know that there is gem of a character here which you can pretty much do anything with and have such fun with Loki.

    Also, I agree about Loki spending some time with other characters besides the likes of Thor and the Asgardians. Of course, I want to see some Thor/Loki brotherly moments and see his other siblings like Angela, Balder and Tyr etc. But I also want to see him with other characters both good and bad. I think from Kibblesmith’s interviews it seems he wants to go that direction and have the Asgardian stuff more seldom. I mean he kind of hinted at Thor not playing a huge role in terms of physical presence but more mental presence.

  11. #1091
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    The nice thing about Thor here is that you don't really need him around because of how close he and Loki are tied together anyways. It works.

    I was thinking about back when we were first getting kidLoki and there was just this feeling of, "Oh, it's OK. We'll have fun now but things will go back to normal soon."

    And I think that's also part of how this came about. The fans who might otherwise have not liked it really thought it-as did we-that things would go back to "normal" and they would have their Loki and their old Thor back. But that hasn't happened and it's lovely. It's so interesting how things do change in comics. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes it does and it's fun to see.

    I do have to wonder, where do you take Loki? I mean, he's had a pretty clear story so far, but where does it end? We've had the death, the rebirth, the high and lows of his journey to long-lasting change, and now a story about him coming to terms with the seeming "end" of that, as well his own clear trauma from what he's been through.

  12. #1092
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    I mean, having them linked isn't the same as seeing them interact. Loki and Thor are on good terms for the first time in quite a while, aside from a brief period in Agent of Asgard, (and Kid Loki, but that wasn't this Loki) so I want to see what that actually looks like. As mentioned I'd like to see more non-Asgard stuff with Loki, but Thor himself is kind of an exception to that.

    And yeah, I guess when Loki was initially brought back as a kid, prople probably did think it would be a brief thing, I remember even Kieron Gillen, when approached about JiM, was under the impression he would be writing adult Loki, that Fraction would be aging Kid Loki up before the series even started, but that Fraction said nope, he had no plans to age him up during his run, and Gillen had to come up with a new plan. But the fans were not aware of the fact that Fraction/Gillen had no plans to age Loki up, so they probably did assume it would last like, 6 months and then back to status quo. But it never happened. That JiM ended up being a critical darling probably helped people be more OK with it once it became clear that a return to the old status quo was not incoming.

    And where does any superhero story 'end'? they don't it, just keeps going. At best we get endings to assorted chapters along the way.

    I took new video of City of Heroes Loki now that he's 50 and has some of the endgame powers unlocked. Though sadly, the people running the Homecoming server are actually developing the game, and they made a change to Stealth which introduced a graphical bug that makes him totally invisible. But you can still see he's become a badass:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WF80...ature=youtu.be

    and a longer one of more gameplay, this one actually takes place immediately prior to the one above: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccJZ...ature=youtu.be

  13. #1093
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Sadly, looks like we may have to prepare for a short run of the solo

    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/09...s-august-2019/

    Loki's book comes in at #92, between Teen Titans and Nightwing, which, if we look at their most recent sales numbers, places it at around 15-16,000 copies. That is not enough to sustain it long term, most likely, unfortunately.

    Also, new podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...=1000449841086


    I will give it a listen and do another summary
    Last edited by Raye; 09-15-2019 at 09:51 AM.

  14. #1094
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    I'm not going to worry about it, at least not yet. It's still very early.

  15. #1095
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Well, I like to trya nd be optimistic, but at the same time, this is a massive drop, and it's worrying.

    Podcast was quite light on Loki content this time.

    Starts off with a lot of X-Men discussion, specifically Nightcrawler, and how he got into comics, and got into [i]writing]/i] comics.

    Host comments that he likes the pacing of Loki, and asks if it's something he considers as he's writing. Says that with Valiant high it was easy due to the large cast, so you could just cut from character to character and keep things rolling. but when he started on Lockjaw, with a very limited cast, one of which was non-verbal, he had to kind of learn a new skill set. And with Loki, he says he has a pretty concrete outline for the first arc, whcih helps. And that he wanted to get as much in there as he could so people got their money's worth, and incase it's the last Marvel comic he ever gets to write. so he set the 'tentpoles' in Loki from the outline and tried to make everything in between as full as possible

    Host says Loki almost feels like an event comic because there's a lot of big impactful reveals happening, asks what Kibblesmith would do if he had the opportunity to run a Marvel event. says Loki would be great for an event because he's so frequently at the middle of things, but that if he had to choose he'd go with Deadpool, because he feels he's more tangentially involved with events and should be the center of one.

    More Nightcrawler talk, he'd like to write a Nightcrawler solo or duo book.

    After being asked if he'd like to do something more serious, he says yes, but also that Loki is a "tortured character" and he's trying to use a lot of that in the book, that it can be both things, both a big adventure story and also introspective. says 'comedy is sad'

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