Loki Appreciation 2019

[Raye]

Yeah, but the question is, will that responsibility be a good fit for him? do you REALLY see Loki just going around being a Captain America style boyscout? It's not really about what happens next, it's about how he will react to it that's interesting. While I think Loki can handle responsibility just fine, he has been anything but lazy in the leadup to this, and he did a fine job as the Sorcerer Supreme, (even if he cheated his way into those duties) I do think he'd have a problem with doing things any way but his own.

And also how others react. I mean sure Mjolnir and his brother may be vouching for him, but it's still LOKI. Will they really want him in their little hero club after everything he's done in the past? He's attacked some of these characters on multiple occasions, he's sought to cause widespread destruction more than once, he's lied to and tricked them too many times to count. And they're just supposed to shrug their shoulders and welcome him to the club because a magic hammer says so? (aside from the few that already have) Don't get me wrong, I think Mjolnir will be a big help here for him, I think it will allow him to get his foot in the door and allow him the opportunity to prove himself. But it's still going to be a tough pill for some of them to swallow.

And I still think he will have a hand in saving himself. Or should, anyway. It would just be so incredibly disappointing to have him lose all agency if his story becomes entirely reliant on what Thor or someone else does. His final push towards finally breaking his fate should be his doing, not Thor's. I don't want him to be the damsel in distress here. Thor can help, sure, but I think Loki needs to be in the drivers seat when it comes to this particular thing. It's too personal to leave it in the hands of another character. He needs to have some agency, especially after being forced into this limbo state against his will. He should CHOOSE to live, and take steps to make that happen, not have it thrust upon him, or he has no real character growth from this ordeal. This part of a character's journey should ideally come with some character growth. I mean yeah obviously he's thinking that the future would be better off without him right now. But that doesn't mean he has to give up. He gave up at the end of last issue, but that was just kinda cliffhanger, I think. He can still have further realizations, change his mind, he can still think. All he needs is the realization that he's not quite as bad as he's making out there, and that it's still worth trying. yeah he's made mistakes, but he's also done some good.

and btw this goes for Thor as well. I would hope Thor isn't going to just be the damsel for the rescue team from Midgard. I would hope he has a hand in freeing himself as well, though he has a bit less on the line here, since he hasn't actually died, like Loki has.

And I don't think the Destroyer armor is coming into play here. It's at Asgard, not in Jotunheim or Earth, and I don't think it's necessary. It's in the story more as a side effect to giving Thor the Destroyer arm, i suspect.

Having Loki build a supporting cast of his own and maybe getting a nemesis of his own that isn't his own dumb self would be really great to see, though so far such things haven't really stuck around. Bats has been around longer beyond Loki than Verity at this point. And after years now of The Odinson Family Drama Show, it would be nice for Loki to have a little corner of the universe that's mostly his.

And the "new status quo" thing IS really interesting. From a certain angle, literally the ONLY thing that Loki has been doing since Siege is fighting the status quo and the seemingly inevitable entropy of returning to it. He's been fighting fate, sure, but more than that, he hasn't been fighting to be good, he's been fighting to be allowed to be good, if he so chose. Getting everything he thinks he wants kind of happened in AoA during Axis, and that was not great because it was still pigeonholing him. He is an agent of change, not of good or evil, though in a world where "good" is reactionary and conservative (not in a political way, in a fighting to preserve the status quo way) he tends toward evil -- because in that environment, change IS evil.

So what happens when there's a status quo that he doesn't necessarily want to fight? What happens when suddenly Loki, agent of change, wants things to stay the same? Will he actually want them to stay the same or is he going to go all trickster / Spike and get bored? And if so, if he needs to shake things up, how can he upset the apple cart without falling right back to the old status quo?

I feel like Malekith has pretty much been rebuilt from the ground up to be a perfect Loki nemesis. Assuming he lives, which is iffy, but still. If nothing else it will probably be a while before he can be used, he needs a cooling off period. He's like Loki at his most evil and with all traces of remorse removed. He's also a sorcerer, with similar motivations, similar methods, similar attitude, similar background... all he's lacking is a connection to the Asgard royal family, really. So while he helps fill the Loki shaped hole left in Thor's rogues gallery when Loki turned face, he could also kind of fill a 'dark mirror' role for Loki now, without having to trot out yet another Loki from the past, or future, or his own mind. And now after Malekith tried to have Loki killed, and Loki will presumably have a hand to play in Malekith's defeat in WotR, now there's a personal grudge. Laufey would also be a good recurring villain but preeeeeeeetty sure he's gonna die when Loki is resurrected. Malekith might get out of it somehow.... Laufey almost certainly not. There is also Mephisto, who i think could be developed into a good Loki foil after his part in JIM. He's playing a part in Avengers, so if Loki joins there, it could kind of springboard off that, maybe. When Mephisto appeared in Agent of Asgard, it felt like he gave Loki a bit of a pass for destroying the Fear Crown, because he realized what had happened to Kid Loki in order for that to happen. so he lost the crown, but was amused that something evil had to happen to achieve that, he figured hey, still a win for Team Evil. but if Loki blatantly turns hero, and he realizes it wasn't actually a win for Team Evil, i think he'd be pissed. If a bad guy could be created that's all his that would be great too, but I mean, no telling what that would look like.

And yeah i can totally see him not quite knowing what to do now that he got what he wanted. He's tried so hard to get the chance to break free of his predetermined status quo that I'm not sure if he's really stopped to think what he'd do should he ever achieve it. It's entirely possible he does get bored with it, or find it too restrictive. As you point out, he's more of a pro active guy and heroism, at least as defined in superheroes, is reactive. Loki may not want to do harm anymore, but I am not sure if he wants to play according to the usual hero rules either. So he may fall back down to anti-hero after a while, which is fine, but it should be interesting to see him try to be a straight up hero.

*edited to add - btw. I hope both Loki and Valkyrie can beat the odds in terms of sustaining the book for more than a couple arcs. Asgardians of the Galaxy lasted what, 10 issues? I guess you could chalk it up to being a team of misfits, but still... Loki is getting the artist from Mr. & Mrs X, a fun book with 2 of the more popular X-Men, but lasted just 12 issues... (though the solicit for 12 makes it sound like it may be relaunched after a hiatus) But, on the other hand, you have something like Squirrel Girl, which has gone on for years despite low sales in the direct market. Or Venom has really caught fire. But I think a lot of it comes down to simple luck, regardless of quality. Anyway, yeah, make sure to pre-order it and support it, it will probably need it. I've already subbed on Comixology: https://www.comixology.com/Loki-2019...-series/131474

[Rosebunse]

I guess my issue with Loki not having any agency is that, well, I'm not sure Loki is really in a place where he can act on his own. For one thing, he is incredible injured, if it was that easy to get out he would have done it already, and Loki doesn't want to get back in the game. For the good of himself and the universe, he wants to die. Loki is very good at telling lies to himself, so I'm just not sure there's any pep talk in the world that he can give himself that he'll believe at this point.

We have seen Loki put his head back on, but that always done with the rest of his body intact.

And then you have the Thor problem. Thor needs to confront his complex feelings for Loki if he's ever going to heal. He isn't the only person Thor needs to work out his relationship with, but he is a key person for Thor.

Is Thor really going to trust Loki just because he saved Freya from a situation Loki helped to cause? If Loki comes out of this without a scratch and perfectly fine, Thor is just going to see it as another trick. Heck, the other characters might also see it as another trick.

I'm not saying that Loki needs to be unconscious or totally incapacitated the entire story, but him being completely in control of his situation doesn't make sense.

And then you have Loki himself who does need that bit of assurance that people want him around, that they are willing to risk him doing bad things because they just want him around, because he is worth saving.

And Thro definitely needs to come into play here because he just does. It's his book and I'm tired of him being depressed all the time.

I do agree that seeing what he does with that responsibility will be most of the fun. We have seen a few Lokis with power before and it never ends well, so what about this new Loki who actually wants to be good...sort of. I think the Avengers would at least agree to work with Loki on occasion. Black Panther was at least thinking about asking him to be an Agent of Wakanda and when Loki had captured Cap, Steve was acknowledging and trying to appeal to his better nature.

They aren't going to give him ant keys to the HQ anytime soon, but if he manages to be key in saving the world, I think they would be able to work with him a little.

[Raye]

Of course it will be hard, that's the point. It has to be hard for it to mean anything, it's supposed to look hopeless and like there is no way out, but he will come up with something anyway. This isn't about the logistics of the situation as much as it is about the shape of stories , and he NEEDS agency here according to how narratives work. If he comes out of it after just sitting there waiting to die, this whole bit is completely meaningless, it served no purpose to the story. The War of the Realms didn't need this bit with Loki saving Freyja and Laufey eating Loki to work, unless it is Loki's turning point, his (literal in his case) belly of the whale moment. It only works if that turning point, the character growth he gets by going through this ordeal, plays a part in the resolution. And for it to be a turning point, he needs agency, he needs to have a hand in saving himself. I don't give a damn about Thor here, he will have plenty of other moments, I am sure, placing this situation in Loki's hands won't take those away. This is Loki's part of the story, one that has been running throughout the lead up, and it shouldn't be diminished by having its resolution taken away from him.

As for what Thor will think of him popping out of Laufey no worse for wear... don't care. Not important. There are other ways for Loki to prove himself to Thor, ways that don't rely on Thor's pity. If this one instance is added to the pile of reasons Thor doesn't trust Loki, oh well. But I also don't think it will affect him a lot because he doesn't even know Loki is dead. And if he does learn of Loki's death before Loki pulls himself through this, then I think he will just be glad he is alive. But I mean, killing Laufey would have to count for something, you'd think. But who says Loki has to come out of there good as new, anyway? I just want him to have a say in coming back, I'm not saying he has to return unscathed.

The others can help Loki and prove to him they care, this isn't a situation where it has to be all or nothing. He can have agency AND receive help. I just don't want his agency in deciding to live to be removed. If they help, it should be because he asked somehow. I mean why else would they even think they were helping him? They think he is dead. So it would end up that they help him, but by accident, not realizing he is still alive in there, which robs the situation of any intent towards Loki at all. It will still fail to prove anything to him, because they weren't acting on his behalf in the first place.

[Prof. Aegis]

Yeah, but the question is, will that responsibility be a good fit for him? do you REALLY see Loki just going around being a Captain America style boyscout? It's not really about what happens next, it's about how he will react to it that's interesting. While I think Loki can handle responsibility just fine, he has been anything but lazy in the leadup to this, and he did a fine job as the Sorcerer Supreme, (even if he cheated his way into those duties) I do think he'd have a problem with doing things any way but his own.



*edited to add - btw. I hope both Loki and Valkyrie can beat the odds in terms of sustaining the book for more than a couple arcs. Asgardians of the Galaxy lasted what, 10 issues? I guess you could chalk it up to being a team of misfits, but still... Loki is getting the artist from Mr. & Mrs X, a fun book with 2 of the more popular X-Men, but lasted just 12 issues... (though the solicit for 12 makes it sound like it may be relaunched after a hiatus) But, on the other hand, you have something like Squirrel Girl, which has gone on for years despite low sales in the direct market. Or Venom has really caught fire. But I think a lot of it comes down to simple luck, regardless of quality. Anyway, yeah, make sure to pre-order it and support it, it will probably need it. I've already subbed on Comixology: https://www.comixology.com/Loki-2019...-series/131474

Some random thoughts...I really enjoyed Agent of Asgard. And he did have a responsibility and carried it well. I thought it was a good fit and even at the end when he worked the God of Stories angle more again, there as a purpose. So I feel he can pull it off well if the writer sets it up and crafts it just right. And I agree, it has to be his own way. But that's what makes him fun, is that where others will follow the rules or do what is expected, Loki will dow what he thinks works best to achieve the goal and it often isn't what's expected.

As for the series run, again Agent of Asgard ran for 17 issues and could have gone longer if it wasn't for Secret Wars and of course his run in Journey into Mastery went, 25 issues. And both in my opinion were due to great stories, and writing and creativity. If done well, Loki can hit a niche and style that no other book has and will draw in the fans/readers. Hopefully Kibblesmith has a strong foundation for the series and can build some great supporting characters, a strong nemesis and good adventures. I do miss Verity.

[Raye]

The interesting thing about Loki tending to do things in his own unique way is that heroes are generally expected to follow certain rules, or at least they should be striving to. In the MU, Captain America, Thor, and Spider-Man are the gold standard, and it feels like everyone thinks they should be trying to be as much like them as possible. Except maybe Iron Man. And I just can't see Loki wanting to work in that way, even if he is trying to do good things. So I think he will be getting the message fed to him that he should do things a certain way and he will ask 'why?' Or at least I hope it is something like this, because I don't want him to lose his unique approach. Maybe a few less Celestial invasions would b in order, but I'd like him to be tricksy and devious, just against bad guys rather than good guys.

And yeah, though I have seen some real good books fail to catch an audience, too. But hopefully the combo of spinning out of WotR with a rather surprising new status quo for him, plus, hopefully, Kibblesmith comes up with something really good will keep it around for a while. I'm kind of interested in the fact that it is not just building towards an ending then it will be gone, like all his other books have been, (even if it took some of them a while to get there) that it's got the possibility to just keep going and going.

[Rosebunse]

The interesting thing about Loki tending to do things in his own unique way is that heroes are generally expected to follow certain rules, or at least they should be striving to. In the MU, Captain America, Thor, and Spider-Man are the gold standard, and it feels like everyone thinks they should be trying to be as much like them as possible. Except maybe Iron Man. And I just can't see Loki wanting to work in that way, even if he is trying to do good things. So I think he will be getting the message fed to him that he should do things a certain way and he will ask 'why?' Or at least I hope it is something like this, because I don't want him to lose his unique approach. Maybe a few less Celestial invasions would b in order, but I'd like him to be tricksy and devious, just against bad guys rather than good guys.

And yeah, though I have seen some real good books fail to catch an audience, too. But hopefully the combo of spinning out of WotR with a rather surprising new status quo for him, plus, hopefully, Kibblesmith comes up with something really good will keep it around for a while. I'm kind of interested in the fact that it is not just building towards an ending then it will be gone, like all his other books have been, (even if it took some of them a while to get there) that it's got the possibility to just keep going and going.

I'm not sure I think that Loki's approach is particularly unique. The MU allows for us to see all sorts of different approaches to issues. Dear God, how many kill squads has Wolverine been on?

And I know I'm beating a dead horse but seriously, why is Wolverine allowed to just do whatever? Is it because Cap is his friend? Because everyone likes him? Yes, Loki was a bad person and all, but giving Logan a pass or at least letting him try again just comes across as hypocritical and annoying.

What I like about AoA is that Loki was trying to find unconventional answers to problems without resorting straight to violence or even harsh solutions. Of course, he would go to those if he had to, but he's a character who really forces writers to think outside of the box. I actually think that's one of the reasons Aaron appears to have sort of "given up" on him in Thor, not out of pure laziness, but out of a practical need to focus on other parts of the story. I can't even imagine his schedule between Thor and his other projects and working with the other writers and editors on this all.

With that out of the way, I'm really hoping that this book is more comedic than always dark. That'll make any tragedy and sadness all the more sweet.

Also, I'm hoping to see some of Lady Loki. That would be fun and give us some good fanart.

Of course it will be hard, that's the point. It has to be hard for it to mean anything, it's supposed to look hopeless and like there is no way out, but he will come up with something anyway. This isn't about the logistics of the situation as much as it is about the shape of stories , and he NEEDS agency here according to how narratives work. If he comes out of it after just sitting there waiting to die, this whole bit is completely meaningless, it served no purpose to the story. The War of the Realms didn't need this bit with Loki saving Freyja and Laufey eating Loki to work, unless it is Loki's turning point, his (literal in his case) belly of the whale moment. It only works if that turning point, the character growth he gets by going through this ordeal, plays a part in the resolution. And for it to be a turning point, he needs agency, he needs to have a hand in saving himself. I don't give a damn about Thor here, he will have plenty of other moments, I am sure, placing this situation in Loki's hands won't take those away. This is Loki's part of the story, one that has been running throughout the lead up, and it shouldn't be diminished by having its resolution taken away from him.

As for what Thor will think of him popping out of Laufey no worse for wear... don't care. Not important. There are other ways for Loki to prove himself to Thor, ways that don't rely on Thor's pity. If this one instance is added to the pile of reasons Thor doesn't trust Loki, oh well. But I also don't think it will affect him a lot because he doesn't even know Loki is dead. And if he does learn of Loki's death before Loki pulls himself through this, then I think he will just be glad he is alive. But I mean, killing Laufey would have to count for something, you'd think. But who says Loki has to come out of there good as new, anyway? I just want him to have a say in coming back, I'm not saying he has to return unscathed.

The others can help Loki and prove to him they care, this isn't a situation where it has to be all or nothing. He can have agency AND receive help. I just don't want his agency in deciding to live to be removed. If they help, it should be because he asked somehow. I mean why else would they even think they were helping him? They think he is dead. So it would end up that they help him, but by accident, not realizing he is still alive in there, which robs the situation of any intent towards Loki at all. It will still fail to prove anything to him, because they weren't acting on his behalf in the first place.

With Aaron's logistical problems in mind, I was thinking about Loki's lack of agency in this story and how it might be happening because Aaron just can't quite find a place for him. I mean, pushing Loki and Odin out of the way a bit might keep things going. I keep forgetting that Aaron is writing three books here, but WotR seems to be holding everything together and he still has several plotlines hanging there, mostly King Thor and all that. Now, War of the Realms is itself only six issues and we have no evidence that there will be some surprise seventh issue.

Looking at the solicits, it actually appears that the rescue mission is still ongoing through issue #4, after which we go straight into the final battle of #5 and 6. We have no mention of Loki in any of the other books and while that doesn't mean he won't show up, they don't really seem to be about events that would concern him right now. Meaning if Loki does get rescued, it'll likely be in #3, what we've been thinking it'll be, or in #4. With this in mind, there's a good chance that he still won't be rescued until the last minute.

That being said, since Laufey is absent from so many cover, I'm still in the camp that he'll be taken out in #3 and #4 will be our heroes trying to figure out what to do with Thor and/or Loki.

This gives us potentially an issue for them to patch things up between Thor and Loki.

One of my problems here with your argument is that this isn't really Loki's story; it's supposed to be Thor's story, Jane's story, Odin and Freya's story, and Loki's story. I know we love Loki, but he isn't the main focus here. He's one of several characters. He and Thor are the most prominent, but they're still part of an ensemble cast. I know we'd all love it if Loki was the lead, but we'll be getting his book very soon.

Tying Loki's own redemption with Thor's is practical and saves time, but it also helps them reconnect their stories and renew their bond.

Sorry if this is rambling, it's late LOL

[Raye]

I'm not sure I think that Loki's approach is particularly unique. The MU allows for us to see all sorts of different approaches to issues. Dear God, how many kill squads has Wolverine been on?

And I know I'm beating a dead horse but seriously, why is Wolverine allowed to just do whatever? Is it because Cap is his friend? Because everyone likes him? Yes, Loki was a bad person and all, but giving Logan a pass or at least letting him try again just comes across as hypocritical and annoying.

i personally consider Wolverine more of an anti-hero, and I think he does as well, and I think he's fine with that. Lots of people frown on how Wolverine does things, it's just , who is going to stop him? I said those 3 were held up as the standard ideal to aspire to. there are definitely lots of characters that fall well short, but there's this vibe that they are doing it wrong, that they're not 'real' heroes if they employ certain tactics, such as killing.

With Aaron's logistical problems in mind, I was thinking about Loki's lack of agency in this story and how it might be happening because Aaron just can't quite find a place for him. I mean, pushing Loki and Odin out of the way a bit might keep things going. I keep forgetting that Aaron is writing three books here, but WotR seems to be holding everything together and he still has several plotlines hanging there, mostly King Thor and all that. Now, War of
the Realms is itself only six issues and we have no evidence that there will be some surprise seventh issue.

Looking at the solicits, it actually appears that the rescue mission is still ongoing through issue #4, after which we go straight into the final battle of #5 and 6. We have no mention of Loki in any of the other books and while that doesn't mean he won't show up, they don't really seem to be about events that would concern him right now. Meaning if Loki does get rescued, it'll likely be in #3, what we've been thinking it'll be, or in #4. With this in mind, there's a good chance that he still won't be rescued until the last minute.

What logistical problem? You're assuming a problem without knowing there is one. If they needed more pages they'd add more issues, i was actually expecting i to be longer than 6 issues anyway. I think he's planned this out and made room for everything that needs to happen, this being one of the things. I don't think he's going to run out of room, because this was always going to be a major beat, it's not some afterthought that has to be resolved in a few pages. If it was a case where every panel counts and they have to be super conservative and fit as much in as possible, why waste pages to do it in the first place? especially if they're just going to handwave revive him after an issue or two, so it doesn't even remove him from the board for the bulk of the story? Wouldn't those pages at the end of issue 1, or an entire issue of Thor exploring Loki's mental state be better served advancing other things related to WotR, if this really was just some random slaying to get him off the board that would be undone with a handwave and no personal consequences? See what I said before about it accomplishing nothing unless Loki has a major moment here, because that point still stands. Without the character beat, he gave Freyja a warning. That's it, that's all he accomplished relevant to the plot of WotR. He didn't have to die for a warning, there's got to be more to it.

I mean, this has always kinda been a stealth Loki story running in the background. Loki may not have gotten a ton of panel time, but he's been an important part of the story. It's been happening in bits and pieces that you have to put together, and you have to infer some of the things that happen behind the scenes, but clearly it has been building towards this moment. In hindsight, you can see that this beat's been telegraphed from a mile off, there were all sorts of little teases alluding to it in the Hel arc, and even back to the stabbing incident. Hell, everything to do with Laufey. Why go to the trouble of resurrecting Laufey instead of creating a new character like they did with Sindr replacing Surtur? the only reason to use Laufey specifically is for Loki. For this moment. Loki's not being pushed out of the way by being killed, he's being drawn into things more openly. The curtains are being pulled back on what he's been doing and where he's at right now.

The solicits probably just can't mention any of it because spoilers. They barely mention Thor, either, and you know he's not sitting it out. Nor do they mention Jane even once, but we can clearly see she's got a big role to play as well. The solicits can't just spoil everything, they're a few lines of text, you can't condense an entire issue down into them, nor should they want to, because they are just meant to pique interest, not spoil the plot. And in Loki's case, cus he died in the first issue, it would be a spoiler to mention him past that. Of course, then they went and announced the Loki series, but most of the solicits had already been released by then.

One of my problems here with your argument is that this isn't really Loki's story; it's supposed to be Thor's story, Jane's story, Odin and Freya's story, and Loki's story. I know we love Loki, but he isn't the main focus here. He's one of several characters. He and Thor are the most prominent, but they're still part of an ensemble cast. I know we'd all love it if Loki was the lead, but we'll be getting his book very soon.

Why can't he have a major beat like that without also allowing them their time? Giving him his own moment doesn't mean they can't also do cool and important things, there' s plenty of room for everybody. And why can't Loki be a major part of the resolution? He's got Mjolnir from the aftermath, there had damn well better be a huge story beat to explain that, because that has massive repercussions not just for him but Thor as well. He's a big part of the story, be happy. (even if it does involve him dying temporarily) It doesn't mean Thor and Jane etc. Can't ALSO be a big part of the story. I am focusing on the Loki part here, but that doesn't mean I think it's going to be all about him, Thor and co. will still have big parts to play, I'm sure. Jane will get a big moment all to herself to become the new Valkyrie, Thor will get a big moment all to himself, probably Freyja as well, probably more. an ensemble cast doesn't have to mean every single scene has to be shared between all characters and that they can't have moments to themselves.

[Rosebunse]

i personally consider Wolverine more of an anti-hero, and I think he does as well, and I think he's fine with that. Lots of people frown on how Wolverine does things, it's just , who is going to stop him? I said those 3 were held up as the standard ideal to aspire to. there are definitely lots of characters that fall well short, but there's this vibe that they are doing it wrong, that they're not 'real' heroes if they employ certain tactics, such as killing.

And you're right, there are times when it's very explicit that what Logan is doing isn't right or heroic, but it still annoys me that everyone just lets him back on the team anyways. I don't mind it with the X-Men so much because they're family, but when it comes to the Avengers, it's much more business it seems, so it just annoys me when they let him back in. Of course, he's also been dead a while and I think the Avengers characters are sort of just surprised and glad to have him back, so I'll let it slide for a few months.

What logistical problem? You're assuming a problem without knowing there is one. If they needed more pages they'd add more issues, i was actually expecting i to be longer than 6 issues anyway. I think he's planned this out and made room for everything that needs to happen, this being one of the things. I don't think he's going to run out of room, because this was always going to be a major beat, it's not some afterthought that has to be resolved in a few pages. If it was a case where every panel counts and they have to be super conservative and fit as much in as possible, why waste pages to do it in the first place? especially if they're just going to handwave revive him after an issue or two, so it doesn't even remove him from the board for the bulk of the story? Wouldn't those pages at the end of issue 1, or an entire issue of Thor exploring Loki's mental state be better served advancing other things related to WotR, if this really was just some random slaying to get him off the board that would be undone with a handwave and no personal consequences? See what I said before about it accomplishing nothing unless Loki has a major moment here, because that point still stands. Without the character beat, he gave Freyja a warning. That's it, that's all he accomplished relevant to the plot of WotR. He didn't have to die for a warning, there's got to be more to it.

I mean, this has always kinda been a stealth Loki story running in the background. Loki may not have gotten a ton of panel time, but he's been an important part of the story. It's been happening in bits and pieces that you have to put together, and you have to infer some of the things that happen behind the scenes, but clearly it has been building towards this moment. In hindsight, you can see that this beat's been telegraphed from a mile off, there were all sorts of little teases alluding to it in the Hel arc, and even back to the stabbing incident. Hell, everything to do with Laufey. Why go to the trouble of resurrecting Laufey instead of creating a new character like they did with Sindr replacing Surtur? the only reason to use Laufey specifically is for Loki. For this moment. Loki's not being pushed out of the way by being killed, he's being drawn into things more openly. The curtains are being pulled back on what he's been doing and where he's at right now.


The solicits probably just can't mention any of it because spoilers. They barely mention Thor, either, and you know he's not sitting it out. Nor do they mention Jane even once, but we can clearly see she's got a big role to play as well. The solicits can't just spoil everything, they're a few lines of text, you can't condense an entire issue down into them, nor should they want to, because they are just meant to pique interest, not spoil the plot. And in Loki's case, cus he died in the first issue, it would be a spoiler to mention him past that. Of course, then they went and announced the Loki series, but most of the solicits had already been released by then.



Why can't he have a major beat like that without also allowing them their time? Giving him his own moment doesn't mean they can't also do cool and important things, there' s plenty of room for everybody. And why can't Loki be a major part of the resolution? He's got Mjolnir from the aftermath, there had damn well better be a huge story beat to explain that, because that has massive repercussions not just for him but Thor as well. He's a big part of the story, be happy. (even if it does involve him dying temporarily) It doesn't mean Thor and Jane etc. Can't ALSO be a big part of the story. I am focusing on the Loki part here, but that doesn't mean I think it's going to be all about him, Thor and co. will still have big parts to play, I'm sure. Jane will get a big moment all to herself to become the new Valkyrie, Thor will get a big moment all to himself, probably Freyja as well, probably more. an ensemble cast doesn't have to mean every single scene has to be shared between all characters and that they can't have moments to themselves.

Loki can be out of the way for a lot of this and still come in near the end to do something amazing and which carries over to his next series, that's all I'm getting. He will still get his big moment. I'm just saying that I will find it cheap if he's just able to pull himself together, both figuratively and literally. If he was so good at it, then he wouldn't be in this mess in the first place. Loki is his own worse enemy and leaving him alone in Laufey's gut isn't helping that. All I'm saying is that I think that Laufey will be blown up, Loki will be gotten out of his stomach, and then part of the rest of the event will involve Thor coming to terms with his complex feelings regarding Loki by being confronted with losing him completely while at the same time realizing that Loki saved Freya with no extra backup plan in place.

Plus, Loki being down several limbs is a logistical issue. When a character is missing a limb, you're suddenly left with how you're supposed to get that character to do what with what they have. It's part of the reason we see so many prosthetic in comics, because as Robert Kirkman realized in The Walking Dead after Rick lost just a hand, he now had to figure out how to write things with that in mind.

Yes, Loki has lost his head before, but he's always had the rest of his body to reattach it.

[Raye]

Why would it be cheap? It's him wallowing in self pity until being rescued that I'd find cheap. I mean, just because he may find the strength of will to do that, I'd imagine it wont be easy. You know that issue of Spider-Man, or the scene in Homecoming that's based on it, where Spider-Man has to struggle to lift a bunch of rubble off himself? It'd do it like that. He has it in him to do it, but it ain't EASY, it ought to be him pushing himself to his limits, not something he can just do casually. this being Aaron writing the book, maybe throw in some cost of magic thing, where it's like, this comes at a sacrifice. I'm not picturing it being like he snaps his fingers and everything is fine. I already explained this. And most importantly, it is these kinds of moments of struggle and self realization that lead to character growth. I think it would be AMAZING, missing limbs and all. Laufey will get blown up... but from the inside. Loki infiltrating something and taking it down from the inside finally working. And Thor can still have realizations about Loki that way if he sees what he does, and Loki gives him the Destroyer arm. As for how, if he can do this, he got eaten by Laufey? I mean the issue made that blatantly obvious. he got eaten on purpose, he didn't fight back. I really don't see a problem here. Also, previous times he's died or similar, he didn't conveniently have the Valkyries out of service allowing him the time to do something like this. He's in a situation that he's likely only going to have once, so no, this won't be something he does a lot. In part because it's probably just plain hard, but also because it depends on every single Valkyrie being dead for it to work.

And the limbs thing, I mean i dunno why you're even bringing that up since we already know he'll manage to completely reassemble himself. I mean, do you see any missing limbs on the cover? So why not get them back here? Why does it have to be at some later point?

Being rescued, i would find incredibly disappointing in comparison. Relying on others to solve his problems. Being denied revenge against Laufey. No character growth. it'd be awful. I don't want him to be the object of misery porn all the time, I want him to find ways to move past it and to kick some ass. Why is that so bad?


Had another look at the variant covers, and while variant covers can definitely be pretty random sometimes, including a bunch from WotR that have absolutely nothing to do with the events inside the comic, just random Asgardians, or random Marvel characters fighting Malekith and/or his lieutenants, those 3D rendered covers, which Loki has one of for issue 3, do seem to be placed on issues where the character has a significant moment. When they were first announced it would be easy to think they were just 'hey do some covers of Asgardians for us' and it was essentially random where they ended up, that's what I thought. But... in hindsight, though they are just characters posing, there does seem to be some care with this series to put them on issues where it makes sense, and they aren't just characters picked at random.

1 is Thor: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1554671439
2 is Valkyrie: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1556051428
3 is Loki: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1552882370
4 is Heimdall powered Daredevil: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1552368025

And after that we don't have them in advance from this particular artist so dunno who gets a cover. There are variant covers solicited for that artist on the final 2 issues, we just don't know what they look like yet.

Thor as the first makes sense, because this event is spinning out of his book, so obviously he gets the first one. Second issue being Valkyrie now makes total sense, to, you know, say goodbye to her, since her death is permanent. (or as permanent as comic book deaths can be, anyway) Then the final two so far, Daredevil reveals that it's not just 'pick some Asgardians' as some of them are, because the Heimbdall powerup is related to events in the story. It said how he got the powers would be explained in 3, but he may get a big moment in 4. and then that makes it likely that the Loki cover on issue 3 is significant, and that this probably is where he gets resurrected. so less than a week and he'll be back, more than likely. Tho, then again, maybe it's just been coincidence that they seem vaguely linked to events inside the comic so far.

[Prof. Aegis]

Here's hoping Loki's variant cover does indicate he'll have a focus. That' could be good. I do like the cover!

[Darkspellmaster]

Cover for the new series looks interesting, does anyone have the name of the author and artist?

[Raye]

Writer is Daniel Kibblesmith, he did Lockjaw, and Black Panther vs Deadpool, and writes for the Late Show. Artist is Oscar Bazaldua, most recently on Gambit and Rogue's book. He's good at drawing pretty people, so that's nice. (which, yeah, shouldn't be the primary concern, but after Vote Loki...)

[Rosebunse]

Writer is Daniel Kibblesmith, he did Lockjaw, and Black Panther vs Deadpool, and writes for the Late Show. Artist is Oscar Bazaldua, most recently on Gambit and Rogue's book. He's good at drawing pretty people, so that's nice. (which, yeah, shouldn't be the primary concern, but after Vote Loki...)

I always think that, you know, I want a sort of ugly looking Loki. And then I see a hot or cute or androgenous Loki and I am back wanting that.

I mean, I don't want this Loki to look really young, but just a little feminine and...and pretty.

Why would it be cheap? It's him wallowing in self pity until being rescued that I'd find cheap. I mean, just because he may find the strength of will to do that, I'd imagine it wont be easy. You know that issue of Spider-Man, or the scene in Homecoming that's based on it, where Spider-Man has to struggle to lift a bunch of rubble off himself? It'd do it like that. He has it in him to do it, but it ain't EASY, it ought to be him pushing himself to his limits, not something he can just do casually. this being Aaron writing the book, maybe throw in some cost of magic thing, where it's like, this comes at a sacrifice. I'm not picturing it being like he snaps his fingers and everything is fine. I already explained this. And most importantly, it is these kinds of moments of struggle and self realization that lead to character growth. I think it would be AMAZING, missing limbs and all. Laufey will get blown up... but from the inside. Loki infiltrating something and taking it down from the inside finally working. And Thor can still have realizations about Loki that way if he sees what he does, and Loki gives him the Destroyer arm. As for how, if he can do this, he got eaten by Laufey? I mean the issue made that blatantly obvious. he got eaten on purpose, he didn't fight back. I really don't see a problem here. Also, previous times he's died or similar, he didn't conveniently have the Valkyries out of service allowing him the time to do something like this. He's in a situation that he's likely only going to have once, so no, this won't be something he does a lot. In part because it's probably just plain hard, but also because it depends on every single Valkyrie being dead for it to work.

And the limbs thing, I mean i dunno why you're even bringing that up since we already know he'll manage to completely reassemble himself. I mean, do you see any missing limbs on the cover? So why not get them back here? Why does it have to be at some later point?

Being rescued, i would find incredibly disappointing in comparison. Relying on others to solve his problems. Being denied revenge against Laufey. No character growth. it'd be awful. I don't want him to be the object of misery porn all the time, I want him to find ways to move past it and to kick some ass. Why is that so bad?


Had another look at the variant covers, and while variant covers can definitely be pretty random sometimes, including a bunch from WotR that have absolutely nothing to do with the events inside the comic, just random Asgardians, or random Marvel characters fighting Malekith and/or his lieutenants, those 3D rendered covers, which Loki has one of for issue 3, do seem to be placed on issues where the character has a significant moment. When they were first announced it would be easy to think they were just 'hey do some covers of Asgardians for us' and it was essentially random where they ended up, that's what I thought. But... in hindsight, though they are just characters posing, there does seem to be some care with this series to put them on issues where it makes sense, and they aren't just characters picked at random.

1 is Thor: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1554671439
2 is Valkyrie: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1556051428
3 is Loki: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1552882370
4 is Heimdall powered Daredevil: https://s3.amazonaws.com/comicgeeks/...jpg?1552368025

And after that we don't have them in advance from this particular artist so dunno who gets a cover. There are variant covers solicited for that artist on the final 2 issues, we just don't know what they look like yet.

Thor as the first makes sense, because this event is spinning out of his book, so obviously he gets the first one. Second issue being Valkyrie now makes total sense, to, you know, say goodbye to her, since her death is permanent. (or as permanent as comic book deaths can be, anyway) Then the final two so far, Daredevil reveals that it's not just 'pick some Asgardians' as some of them are, because the Heimbdall powerup is related to events in the story. It said how he got the powers would be explained in 3, but he may get a big moment in 4. and then that makes it likely that the Loki cover on issue 3 is significant, and that this probably is where he gets resurrected. so less than a week and he'll be back, more than likely. Tho, then again, maybe it's just been coincidence that they seem vaguely linked to events inside the comic so far.

I guess my thing is, Loki isn't Spiderman. He really doesn't have his same resolve, no one does.

Actually, Loki blowing up Laufey from the inside, right as things look grim, is sort of funny, especially if he does it because he's able to hear Thor's yelling.

Alright, I want this.

I guess I just don't see the problem with him needing to be rescued if it comes down to it. It just means he needs the extra help. Plenty of other characters have needed it before.

And as for Laufey's role, well, yes, he is important to Loki's storyline, I never said that he wasn't. None of the other villains would have killed Loki that way. And in its own way, the method allows for Loki to stay with the action and not need to be sent to, say, a completely other dimension or some convoluted thing like that. And Laufey has threatened to eat Loki before.

Also, no matter what happens, if Thor or some combination of Thor and Loki defeat Laufey, then there's the symbolism of Loki's real family finally defeating the family Loki may have always sort of wanted but could never really have.

I mean, I guess I just think that Loki can be the subject of misery porn and then kick ass later after the right steps have been taken.

[Regular man]

Loki carrying Thor's hammer ..... I can't wait to see this. But what makes Loki worthy of Mijolnir?
Jane Foster was worthy of carrying the hammer, Why ? because even knowing of her illness and how the hammer wasnt helping and was killing her slowly she kept using it to help the helpless. Thor instead was worthy of lifting the hammer because he knew that loving a mortal (like Erika the red) would only bring pain , but this didn't stop him from love the humans and Midgar .
What the last two Thor have in common is the fact of accepting the pain of losing something important, but of continuing to move forward to help others at all costs , never stop to love ( the others but even themselfs , I think it is the reason of why Thor is not more worthy , he stopped to belive in himself making himself unworthy ).
Loki theoretically lost something very important (his life) to help someone else (his adoptive mother). The fact of being swallowed by his father without any hidden plan to save himself, could be the reason why he should be considered worthy, the gesture is purely heroic but it is selfish , he did it because he wanted to die and that was a good opportunity .
He even surrendered himself to death and the fears of his future. For me he is still unworthy . He dont truly belive in himself and he hates himself without reason , without realising that he has changed and with his help the war could end ( the war of realm but also the war that he has been fighting in his head ) . In the end the act of safe is stepmother will not be the reason of how he become worthy , and something more big and sad must happen to Loki .

[Raye]

You hit on the reason why I think Loki needs to get out of this himself, Regular Man. I agree about why Thor is not worthy, or is at least struggling with it (he can lift that little fragment, but it's hard) and I think Loki needs to develop that determination to be worthy of Mjolnir. He may be worthy of Valhalla right now because of his sacrifice, (but no Valkyries means he can't actually get there) it's definitely a step in the right direction, but Mjolnir requires more.

Though, I don't think he hates himself for no reason, he has done some truly awful things, to be fair. But he is using the past and what he saw of the future as signs that he can't be good in the present, when he can.

And Rosebunse, this wasn't about him being like Spider-Man when I used that example, and nor is Spider-Man the only one to display determination and resolve in a tough situation. How about Tony Stark in a cave with a box of scraps? Not so different from this, with a character that has similar character flaws to Loki, even. Should he have just waited to die because building the first suit while gravely injured with a box of scraps was something he hadn't done before, and would be super hard to do? And If he was always capable of building that kind of suit, why didn't he do it until then? Because he had to step up his game and find it in himself to do something remarkable to survive. Being in that situation was the catalyst for him becoming more than he was. And if he had waited around for someone to rescue him, even if someone did and he was fine afterward, he wouldn't be Iron Man. He needed to get out of that ordeal his own damn self (though with an assist from Yinsen) in order to become Iron Man. And Loki needs to get out of this his damn self (though maybe with an assist from Thor) to become worthy. Why I am so adamant about this is because Loki needs a hero origin. He can't just become worthy of Mjolnir without an ordeal like this. Or shouldn't anyway. These are the steps that need to be taken for him to kick ass in the finale. If they are really going to give Loki Mjolnir, he needs this. it's something that is a big deal, and needs a lot of lead up and justification.

I also don't think the royal family killing Laufey is enough, it has to be Loki. And the point was... Why go to all the trouble of resurrecting him just to have him kill Loki and then die to someone elses hand, if all of this was just some shock value death to remove Loki from the board temporarily? Wouldn't the Dark Elf assassins have done the same thing? Worked for Odin. Or send him on a road trip like they did with Balder, there was a perfect opportunity for one with Squirrel Girl. They didn't need to resurrect his dead father and do literal years of stories with him just for that.