Loki Appreciation 2019

[Raye]

in other news, City of Heroes is (kinda) back, so of course i had to do this (after recreating my namesake):




unfortunately the servers were too busy to actually load him into the game, but i saved the costume so i can get to it later. maybe another shard will be added and I will be able to snap up his real name if i act fast.

[Rosebunse]

in other news, City of Heroes is (kinda) back, so of course i had to do this (after recreating my namesake):




unfortunately the servers were too busy to actually load him into the game, but i saved the costume so i can get to it later. maybe another shard will be added and I will be able to snap up his real name if i act fast.

I'm always pleased with how many different characters you can make on this game if you get creative.

Loki carrying Thor's hammer ..... I can't wait to see this. But what makes Loki worthy of Mijolnir?
Jane Foster was worthy of carrying the hammer, Why ? because even knowing of her illness and how the hammer wasnt helping and was killing her slowly she kept using it to help the helpless. Thor instead was worthy of lifting the hammer because he knew that loving a mortal (like Erika the red) would only bring pain , but this didn't stop him from love the humans and Midgar .
What the last two Thor have in common is the fact of accepting the pain of losing something important, but of continuing to move forward to help others at all costs , never stop to love ( the others but even themselfs , I think it is the reason of why Thor is not more worthy , he stopped to belive in himself making himself unworthy ).
Loki theoretically lost something very important (his life) to help someone else (his adoptive mother). The fact of being swallowed by his father without any hidden plan to save himself, could be the reason why he should be considered worthy, the gesture is purely heroic but it is selfish , he did it because he wanted to die and that was a good opportunity .
He even surrendered himself to death and the fears of his future. For me he is still unworthy . He dont truly belive in himself and he hates himself without reason , without realising that he has changed and with his help the war could end ( the war of realm but also the war that he has been fighting in his head ) . In the end the act of safe is stepmother will not be the reason of how he become worthy , and something more big and sad must happen to Loki .

We have seen Loki use the hammer before back in AXIS. I'm not sure if that really applies, but I think it does imply that Loki's positive qualities can be enough to get him to lift that hammer.

Really, I just don't have a very high opinion of that hammer. It is cruel and sort of was just using Jane to exert its own power with no regard to how it was killing her.

With that in mind, Loki using it just doesn't register as a truly ground-breaking moment for me.

You hit on the reason why I think Loki needs to get out of this himself, Regular Man. I agree about why Thor is not worthy, or is at least struggling with it (he can lift that little fragment, but it's hard) and I think Loki needs to develop that determination to be worthy of Mjolnir. He may be worthy of Valhalla right now because of his sacrifice, (but no Valkyries means he can't actually get there) it's definitely a step in the right direction, but Mjolnir requires more.

Though, I don't think he hates himself for no reason, he has done some truly awful things, to be fair. But he is using the past and what he saw of the future as signs that he can't be good in the present, when he can.

And Rosebunse, this wasn't about him being like Spider-Man when I used that example, and nor is Spider-Man the only one to display determination and resolve in a tough situation. How about Tony Stark in a cave with a box of scraps? Not so different from this, with a character that has similar character flaws to Loki, even. Should he have just waited to die because building the first suit while gravely injured with a box of scraps was something he hadn't done before, and would be super hard to do? And If he was always capable of building that kind of suit, why didn't he do it until then? Because he had to step up his game and find it in himself to do something remarkable to survive. Being in that situation was the catalyst for him becoming more than he was. And if he had waited around for someone to rescue him, even if someone did and he was fine afterward, he wouldn't be Iron Man. He needed to get out of that ordeal his own damn self (though with an assist from Yinsen) in order to become Iron Man. And Loki needs to get out of this his damn self (though maybe with an assist from Thor) to become worthy. Why I am so adamant about this is because Loki needs a hero origin. He can't just become worthy of Mjolnir without an ordeal like this. Or shouldn't anyway. These are the steps that need to be taken for him to kick ass in the finale. If they are really going to give Loki Mjolnir, he needs this. it's something that is a big deal, and needs a lot of lead up and justification.

I also don't think the royal family killing Laufey is enough, it has to be Loki. And the point was... Why go to all the trouble of resurrecting him just to have him kill Loki and then die to someone elses hand, if all of this was just some shock value death to remove Loki from the board temporarily? Wouldn't the Dark Elf assassins have done the same thing? Worked for Odin. Or send him on a road trip like they did with Balder, there was a perfect opportunity for one with Squirrel Girl. They didn't need to resurrect his dead father and do literal years of stories with him just for that.

You make your point and it's hard to argue against. But my point is that this story isn't just Loki's at the moment. We need Thor to come have his own moment with Loki, we need that evolution of their relationship to make this work.

[Raye]

Mjolnir was using Jane, yes, but it was doing so in defense of the Earth. In which case you can see some parallels with how Loki operates, which may be a contributing factor to him being found worthy. It's also not human, so attributing human morality to it is sketchy, it may not have fully comprehended what was happening with her.

But it is still ground breaking, because whether it is using people or not, it is very, very picky about who gets to pick it up, and it consistently targets good people. (unless reality is warped and you get Stevil lifting it, but that was an exception) so to have it consider Loki worthy is huge, it is a clear sign to himself and others that he has changed. Whether they accept it or not is another question, but it is a huge deal for him as a character. It's not so much Mjolnir that's a big deal as it is the fact that he was found worthy of it.

I have always said that I felt Loki needed something big and dramatic to show people, both in universe and readers, but mostly readers, that he had turned face. I'm just hoping it is as it appears, and I got my wish. So many people just have this ancient at this point image of him in their heads and can't seem to wrap their head around the fact that he is not that character anymore. A lot of this has to do with the fact that his character development has been occurring in lower selling books on the fringe of things, and in Thor he was playing double agent, and suffering some internal conflict which is only being fully revealed now, muddying the waters. So even if Mjolnir doesn't last more than an arc or two (it may be that Thor gets it back at the end of Aaron's final arc), It's a big moment in a high profile event that a lot of people will read, and it may finally hammer it into their skulls that he's switched sides.

And as I said before, giving Loki this moment in WotR doesn't mean other characters can't also have theirs. There IS room for it all, it's not going to be all Loki from here on out, I'm sure. The whole resurrection thing doesn't have to take more than a few pages. Thor, Jane etc. will all still have their moments. That it's a shared story doesn't mean he needs to be shoved into the background any more than it means Thor needs to be. He's a co-star in this, not a supporting character. The others will still have their time in the spotlight. I'm just talking about Loki here because it is his thread.

as for Loki and Thor's relationship, I'd like to see it happen, but it can happen AFTER WotR. That is something that can be better covered in Loki and Thor's solos, or in Avengers, after WotR concludes. There is nothing about that which I see as essential to be addressed RIGHT THIS SECOND. Doing so will probably not resolve the problem being faced in WotR. I mean yeah them working together will likely contribute, and that can start the ball rolling, but I don't really see them putting aside their differences to fight a common threat as really resolving it. And I don't think most people are reading this event for family drama, they're reading it to see how they stop the world from being conquered by Malekith. the family drama is something that can be better developed over time, it's not really something that can be wrapped up in a few issues during an event when they have more pressing concerns, there's too much baggage there.

[Rosebunse]

Even though the hammer does operate on some alien logic and isn't completely malicious, that still doesn't change that the thing isn't the completely good thing we once saw it as being.

Again, we don't need a huge character moment between Thor and Loki, but we need to have something for that set up in their own series or else it will just feel like an afterthought.

Thor and Loki will presumably be in one location together thanks to Laufey, unless he isn't there...

Not sure where he would be. I still think that we lose Laufey fairly early.

I guess I just don't agree on the part about people nit reading for the family drama. Aaron has made the family drama a very important part of his book. And one of Thor's draws since the very beginning were the conflicts between the family members. And again, Aaron has put the complicated family relationship between Thor, Odin, Freya, Loki, and the others as a central focus. That can't be abandoned now and it likely won't be.

No one is saying that all of this can be resolved in this event, though I wouldn't put it past Aaron to try, but we need the beginnings of that change.

Also, I'm just trying to guess what Loki will look like the next time we see him and I just feel like the more detailed and realistic art is going to make for a very, ummm...fun experience. I really wouldn't mind if you were right and we had Loki just hanging out on a piece of floating food or something, just wallowing.

[Raye]

The hammer isn't completely good, yeah, but that's not the point. Being deemed worthy by it IS good, regardless of it's intentions. As a symbol of strength of character, it's still a really huge deal for Loki, especially when you consider where he started out. Being deemed worthy is probably the most iron clad test of character he can have, and it's something he can't lie about. Unless it's somehow been corrupted by Mangog, or something. But I am hoping for the best.

I am sure they will get some time, if events call for it, and just stuff that comes across through interaction. I am not saying it will be ignored completely, just that it won't be a focus. Probably not a whole lot more than Odin and Freyja got when it came to them resolving things. You said earlier that Thor would be spending a lot of time examining his feelings, and I just don't see that happening. He's got more important things on his plate, and it would do little to resolve the plot. This is an event, so it's going to be laser focused on the problem at hand: stopping Malekith. That's the goal, that's what it's being billed as, and everything has to contribute to that. It's probably not going to be veering off into in-depth character moments like the regular books sometimes do, unless it directly serves that goal, (like Loki's self reflection. That has to happen because it's essential to picking up Mjolnir, which, I presume, comes into play at the end.) because the characters themselves are focused on that goal, they can't afford to stop and just talk **** out. If anything is going to be cut to save on page space, it's going to be stuff like that. So we may get enough to make Thor and Loki work together, if that's essential to the resolution, but we already know they'll do that if the situation warrants it anyway. People read Thor for the drama, not WotR. Maybe in Thor tie-ins, it will be more of that, like it was with Loki there, but there's only 2 more issues of that happening during the event, and the next one is apparently focused on Cul, and after that it's set in the past, but they may get a few scenes with present day Thor and Loki. Just because Loki's issue was solely focused on him doesn't necessarily mean the other two are focused on just one thing, especially the Cul issue.

My bet is that Laufey will hear that Thor is making all his giants into a literal river of blood, or he gets word that, after much bloodshed, they managed to finally wear him down, and comes to put him down himself, because it's fucking Thor. He killed one brother may as well complete the set. And then it won't go so well for him. Brothers reunited, albeit messily, and presumably much to Thor and the others shock, maybe some of Thor thinking it's Malekith playing a trick of some kind again, considering how he got to Jotunheim in the first place... and then Loki and Thor are both in the right place to go get Thor the Destroyer arm. Maybe his regular one got wrecked in the fight with the giants or something. But we know he gets it, because covers, and Loki is most likely the one who has it. What they do next is anyone's guess, but I presume Mjolnir is involved. Could be Thor goes to get it himself, or Thor and Loki together, or it just comes flying out of the heavens when needed. I can't decide if Thor will get a moment of worthiness or not, could go either way, depending on how Mjolnir comes into play. But he won't end it worthy, I suspect after doing something not so great in order to win.

I doubt Loki will be all shambling zombie, I think he manages to pull himself together at least partially, enough to function at the very least, before then, but maybe with some scars and stuff.

[Rosebunse]

Honestly, I feel bad for the artists of Loki is some sort of skeleton or zombie looking thing for any length of time. It would look so cool and gnarly. But again, it would be so hard to deal with LOL

[Drops Of Venus]

I'm surprised no one's discussing Endgame here yet. Loki wasn't a big part of the movie at all, but there were two key moments for him:

spoilers:

First of all, when Tony, Steve and Bruce go to 2012 to retrieve three of the stones, they fail to get one of them, the Tesseract, and Loki ends up getting his hands on it and teleporting away from S.H.I.E.L.D. custody. That was obviously a huge change from the original timeline and there was NO explanation as to what the heck happened to him after that. If that wasn't ''fixed'' somehow, it could've led to Loki having a different future. I wonder if they're gonna bother to explain that at all. And then there's the fact that Thanos was teleported from 2014 to the present and then killed off. If Thanos from 2014 died, that means he never actually killed Loki a few years later on Infinity War. Then again, that should've meant Vision was alive as well, but it was stated in the end that he wasn't. Like I just posted on the Nebula Thread, the movie is all over the place with the time travel rules, because Captain America in the end contradicted the ''alternative timeline'' argument by showing that changing events of the past WILL affect the future. So now I have no idea if Loki is supposed to be alive or not... I guess we'll have to wait for his show.

end of spoilers

[Rosebunse]

I'm surprised no one's discussing Endgame here yet. Loki wasn't a big part of the movie at all, but there were two key moments for him:

spoilers:

First of all, when Tony, Steve and Bruce go to 2012 to retrieve three of the stones, they fail to get one of them, the Tesseract, and Loki ends up getting his hands on it and teleporting away from S.H.I.E.L.D. custody. That was obviously a huge change from the original timeline and there was NO explanation as to what the heck happened to him after that. If that wasn't ''fixed'' somehow, it could've led to Loki having a different future. I wonder if they're gonna bother to explain that at all. And then there's the fact that Thanos was teleported from 2014 to the present and then killed off. If Thanos from 2014 died, that means he never actually killed Loki a few years later on Infinity War. Then again, that should've meant Vision was alive as well, but it was stated in the end that he wasn't. Like I just posted on the Nebula Thread, the movie is all over the place with the time travel rules, because Captain America in the end contradicted the ''alternative timeline'' argument by showing that changing events of the past WILL affect the future. So now I have no idea if Loki is supposed to be alive or not... I guess we'll have to wait for his show.

end of spoilers

I'm avoiding spoilers until Monday, when I will see it. I wanted to see it this weekend, but I just haven't had the time.

[Raye]

yeah, i haven't seen it yet, i hate going opening weekend, too crowded... otherwise I'm sure i would have said something. I knew he was in it, from set photos. sort of. Probably tuesday or thursday I'll see it.

[Raye]

Ok, so Kibblesmith has been dropping what may be really vague teases on his twitter, just here and there, and back to the earlier speculation about the Jotunheim symbol in the logo, I am now 99.9% convinced that Loki is King of Jotunheim. I did skim through some of the earlier issues from Aaron's run recently, and what may be some early foreshadowing does seem to support that. Laufey said to Loki, after Loki brought up that he had previously killed him with time travel shenanigans, "that might have been enough to earn my respect, Loki, had you struck me down in order to seize my crown, as any true frost giant would have done" rather than out of anger, which he saw as weak. Not that I think Loki will actually be trying to seize the crown, or wants to do things according to frost giant traditions, but Laufey basically confirmed there that had Loki killed him, he would actually have a claim to the throne. I suspect inheriting the throne of Jotunheim is less about a hereditary claim than it is about killing the old ruler (in which case Loki will get a big ol target on his back), or maybe a combination of both, kind of like a pride of lions or something. It could explain why Loki never tried to exert a claim before. Presumably he never claimed it before out of a combo of Loki not actually wanting to rule over a primitive frozen wasteland, and the fact that he killed Laufey in secret, no one but he and Laufey knew, everyone thought it was Odin. For his claim to be legitimate, presumably there needs to be witnesses. so... if Loki kills Laufey when he resurrects, bam, king of Jotunheim because he is both technically a frost giant, even if he doesn't look the part, is Laufey's son, and he killed the old ruler. And that would be his new responsibilities, at least some of them.

also, apparently there are swords. Though, I mean, Asgardians, so hardly a surprise. And I am a bit more interested in hammers this time around, personally.

[Rosebunse]

Ok, so Kibblesmith has been dropping what may be really vague teases on his twitter, just here and there, and back to the earlier speculation about the Jotunheim symbol in the logo, I am now 99.9% convinced that Loki is King of Jotunheim. I did skim through some of the earlier issues from Aaron's run recently, and what may be some early foreshadowing does seem to support that. Laufey said to Loki, after Loki brought up that he had previously killed him with time travel shenanigans, "that might have been enough to earn my respect, Loki, had you struck me down in order to seize my crown, as any true frost giant would have done" rather than out of anger, which he saw as weak. Not that I think Loki will actually be trying to seize the crown, or wants to do things according to frost giant traditions, but Laufey basically confirmed there that had Loki killed him, he would actually have a claim to the throne. I suspect inheriting the throne of Jotunheim is less about a hereditary claim than it is about killing the old ruler (in which case Loki will get a big ol target on his back), or maybe a combination of both, kind of like a pride of lions or something. It could explain why Loki never tried to exert a claim before. Presumably he never claimed it before out of a combo of Loki not actually wanting to rule over a primitive frozen wasteland, and the fact that he killed Laufey in secret, no one but he and Laufey knew, everyone thought it was Odin. For his claim to be legitimate, presumably there needs to be witnesses. so... if Loki kills Laufey when he resurrects, bam, king of Jotunheim because he is both technically a frost giant, even if he doesn't look the part, is Laufey's son, and he killed the old ruler. And that would be his new responsibilities, at least some of them.

also, apparently there are swords. Though, I mean, Asgardians, so hardly a surprise. And I am a bit more interested in hammers this time around, personally.

So that would imply that Loki will be the one to kill Laufey, probably in front of a bunch of Frost Giants. It would also take out a huge portion of Malekith's army if the Fronst Giants switch sides.

So it looks like your theory may have been correct so far.

I don't mind the swords. I mean, maybe Loki just doesn't want to use the hammer that much?

And thank God we're getting this issue in just a few days!

[Raye]

Well, the sword thing was a Game of Thrones joke, I wouldn't take that too literally, but still. And also, the presence of swords doesn't necessarily mean it's Loki that wields them, though he's been fond of swords in the past... but if you look in the followup comments on that one you can see how he responds with a little crowned snake, and he's said 'hail to the king' in reference to Loki and stuff, so the king thing, that's looking likely to me. I mean, he never specified Jotunheim, I guess, but I somehow doubt the other option of Asgard is going to happen, and it wouldn't fit with the Jotunheim symbol in the logo. And yeah, if the giants switch sides, that could be the 'unexpected allies' mentioned in the solicits. (would make Squirrel Girl's mission a bit awkward though) Though I don't know how much I'd expect the giants to just turn on a dime like that. It's not as if they like Loki any more than Laufey did, so i doubt they'd give him a ton of respect even if technically he got the throne, I would expect he'd have to earn their support somehow. But I guess you never know. this is Loki we're talking about, he's pretty good at talking people into stuff. And maybe Thor can be like his enforcer or something. I mean he's killed a LOT of them in the leadup to this issue, so... Also, I guess Jotunheim is more than just the Frost Giants, they just ended up being the ones in charge, but Jotunheim is the home for ALL types of giants, aside from the fire ones, and it seemed they were not all in support of Laufey, so that could come into play.

And yep, just a couple more days! of course now I've talked myself into really wanting things to lay out a certain way, so if it doesn't happen i will be bummed. There is some wiggle room, but mostly I really want Loki to kill Laufey.

[Rosebunse]

I finally saw Infinity War and it definitely isn't too light on Loki. Like, I'm happy that it gave us a few fine Loki related topics, because the Thor side of the MCU can really take over a movie. I will warn anyone who goes into this movie that your theater will probably be quite packed even after opening weekend. I went on a Monday afternoon and it was still pretty full.

I wouldn't mind if Loki didn't beat Laufey as long as Thor did it, but I think Raye has made some very fine points as to why it makes way more sense for Loki to do it. I'm sure Loki can give some rallying cry for why he'd be a good king. I imagine one of those arguments is that he'd bring them the internet.

[Raye]

Looks like I am seeing it at 10:30 am on Thursday, hopefully morning showings in the middle of the week will be not completely packed. I just find noisy audiences incredibly distracting, it ruins things for me. I'd wait longer if I thought I could avoid spoilers that long. Not because I don't want to see it, but because I want a good experience when I do.

As for WotR, we know already there won't be an immediate turn for the giants, at least of the frosty variety, because they are still being used as bad guys in Giant Man and Squirrel Girl. So while I think it is likely Loki becomes king, it may not be finalized until issue 4 or 5, or not all of them go along with it. I really doubt it will be a Laufey dies and they all bow to Loki situation, he's going to have to work for it, probably. I don't think the throne is something he particularly wants, but when it comes to winning the war, it's hard to argue that turning one of Malekith's more powerful factions against him wouldn't be a huge advantage. But Laufey dying in issue 3 seems to line up with the Giant Man series, where they end up fighting Ymir rather than Laufey. It may be that Laufey's death brings forth Ymir somehow, so the frost giants can still be bad guys and have North America still occupied until the end.

I think we may see Agger turn against Malekith as well. He seemed to regret his part in things when Roz visited him earlier. I doubt it is entirely based on any sort of moral quandary though, knowing him. Who is he going to sell oil to if the world is taken over by fantasy beings who use medieval level technology? This is going to hurt his profits rather than make him richer.

[Rosebunse]

Well, the sword thing was a Game of Thrones joke, I wouldn't take that too literally, but still. And also, the presence of swords doesn't necessarily mean it's Loki that wields them, though he's been fond of swords in the past... but if you look in the followup comments on that one you can see how he responds with a little crowned snake, and he's said 'hail to the king' in reference to Loki and stuff, so the king thing, that's looking likely to me. I mean, he never specified Jotunheim, I guess, but I somehow doubt the other option of Asgard is going to happen, and it wouldn't fit with the Jotunheim symbol in the logo. And yeah, if the giants switch sides, that could be the 'unexpected allies' mentioned in the solicits. (would make Squirrel Girl's mission a bit awkward though) Though I don't know how much I'd expect the giants to just turn on a dime like that. It's not as if they like Loki any more than Laufey did, so i doubt they'd give him a ton of respect even if technically he got the throne, I would expect he'd have to earn their support somehow. But I guess you never know. this is Loki we're talking about, he's pretty good at talking people into stuff. And maybe Thor can be like his enforcer or something. I mean he's killed a LOT of them in the leadup to this issue, so... Also, I guess Jotunheim is more than just the Frost Giants, they just ended up being the ones in charge, but Jotunheim is the home for ALL types of giants, aside from the fire ones, and it seemed they were not all in support of Laufey, so that could come into play.

And yep, just a couple more days! of course now I've talked myself into really wanting things to lay out a certain way, so if it doesn't happen i will be bummed. There is some wiggle room, but mostly I really want Loki to kill Laufey.

How exactly did he think that it was going to make him richer in the first place?

Yeah, the movie was good. You'll have fun. Just don't drink anything for a while before. It honestly didn't feel like it was 3 hours long.