Loki Appreciation 2019

[Raye]

Loki was not in Thor today, though there were some heavy parallels being made between Odin and Cul, and Thor and Loki.

He was in War Scrolls #2 as discussed previously and it was nice... mostly. Basically Loki was posing as Kate to meet with Wiccan and Hulkling, though Teddy stayed home, which spoiled the ruse after Kate posted something at the same time as the brunch was happening. Anyway, Loki and Billy had a sort of hashing out of things, and in the process, Loki tells Billy that the world is about to basically end, and asks Billy to go all Demiurge and restart the world with a fresh slate, should Malekith take over. Which i have mixed feelings about, like, he asked Billy to end the world. Which billy of course was like 'hell no' to. but i guess Loki just saw the situation as hopeless, and that it would be better to end it and start again than to just let it fall to Malekith? I dunno. anyway, Billy tells him that all the bad things he's done, there will be a reckoning, and that he can't use the excuse that no one cares about him as an excuse for whatever he's about to do, because he cares, and that he should do the right thing. This is overlaid over a panel of Billy and Teddy watching Loki's death on a screen during the invasion, and they're sad. Also, there are some flashback to Loki as a kid, where he had turned Thor into a bear, which Odin is mad about, and they discuss the practicalities of horned headwear. Freyja tells him to 'show the world what a hero looks like, and they will see a hero' so basically that it doesn't matter what he looks like etc. as long as they do good. He un-bears Thor, and says he will be a great hero, though the bifrost itself may fall... which may be a bit more literal than he was probably hoping for at the time. Better late than never, i guess. It's also implied by this scene he wears horns to emulate Odin.


https://twitter.com/kibblesmith/stat...87523195936768

Kibblesmith made a tweet that praises the art (though sadly, no pics) so I am guessing he recently saw the first interior art of the series, and liked what he saw, (though not like i have ever seen a comics writer go 'eugh, i hate this artist i got paired with' ) and he also implores people to subscribe to the series. He also calls Loki a 'hero' in this plea, which is encouraging.

Now, I have already subbed on Comixology, but just gonna do my part and say here that if you have not subbed yet, please do, so the book can last as long as possible. We want Loki's book to last like 50 issues or more, not be canceled after 10 due to low sales, right? And we need people buying it on the day of release for that to happen. If you normally get trades, or Marvel Unlimited, or.... less than legal methods, make an exception for Loki. I know there are some books like Squirrel Girl that have defied the odds and continued for over 50 issues despite low sales in the direct market, based on strong trade sales or whatever else, but they are the exception. Normally a book's fate is decided with single issue sales on the day of release, (not necessarily print sales, just... single issue sales on the day of release, that's how Marvel gauges interest in a book, and is the primary factor in it's profitability) and we can't really count on Loki being an exception. If you are outside of North America and the books are delayed, then getting it on Comixology or Marvel's app is probably going to help support the book the most.

so there's 3 ways to support it:

1 - Get to your local comic shop and get them to pull the issue for you. This lets them know someone is interested in the book, which helps them order enough copies, and you will always be sure to get a copy.
2 - subscribe on Comixology or the Marvel app: https://www.comixology.com/Loki-2019...-series/131474 or https://comicstore.marvel.com/Loki-2...-series/131474 (tho really the Marvel app is just a skin for Comixology, but if you prefer Marvel's app, go for it, same end result)
3 - Subscribe in print: https://subscriptions.marvel.com/sto....asp?spid=1320

[Rosebunse]

I really liked that issue.

And I think it fits with the theory that Loki may have legit been trying to kill himself via Laufey. Seeing him try and connect with Billy was hard, especially since by pretending to be Kate and lying and not being direct, he was just repeating his old self destructive patterns. And him asking Billy to just reset everything also plays into this, because it's the easy way out where he, Loki, still doesn't have to change his own plans.

Yeah, the part with the thing about hats was sad, but also sort of inkeeping with some previous theories that said Loki was trying to imitate Odin or even Thor with his horns, especially given their previously huge size. It was just another lie from Loki. Interestingly, kidLoki didn't have horns at all, while our current Loki has much smaller horns. He's still lying to himself, but not like how he was.

And yeah, Billy and Teddy looking sad at Loki's BRUTAL death was hard. Yes, they were mad at Loki for lying to them...again, but they do care and no one deserves that death.

Yeah, it's hard to tell how this series will go. Loki's series were never huge sellers, but Marvel let them go on for quite a bit seemingly because of their great reviews and because they were never quite intended to run forever.

[Prof. Aegis]

I thought it was a good short story. Showed Loki, being his "usual" self around others, but how Wiccan sees through that and hits to the heart of Loki. Loki needs friends like Wiccan and sometimes I think he forgets that. He crosses people for his own plans so often, he just figures no one will forgive him or care about him, and Wiccan, kind of threw him a curve. Gives him something to think about.

No, I don't expect to see any connections from this story to others, but I did like how it connected through. Plus seeing the 3 phases of Loki as of recent shows the wider scope of who he is. Nicely done.

[Raye]

I don't think the horns were Loki lying to himself, just failing to live up to what they originally represented to him, maybe even kinda forgetting along the way why he went with a horns motif in the first place.

And Kid Loki didn't have horns, but he did have wings. like Thor. Though yes, i know it was actually based on an old costume of his. but still, it was Thor that brought him back to Asgard, and Kid Loki idolized Thor, so it does still kinda fit, he just changed role models.

I hope Wiccan and Hulkling show up in the new solo, at least for an issue. Yeah, I think he does kind of think that no one cares about him, and that's part of why he resorts to the kinds of methods he uses, because he figures no one will help him, and i think Wiccan just, kinda flat out saying that though he's mad, he does care, would be a bit of a revelation for him. Also, I think Billy and Teddy watching him die probably made them realize that maybe taking a standoffish approach may not have been the best course of action and that helping him (though maybe not in the way he wanted) would have accomplished more.

Also Squirrel Girl and Nancy. If their solo is ending, I want them to at least show up in Loki's book from time to time. and hey, if Loki somehow manages to hit it off with Tony (my strangely prophetic Sims game has them as good friends, actually) it's like an instant perfect teamup, since Doreen is also friends with Tony.

edited to add - oh, also, Loki's previous solo ventures were never cancelled due to low sales, (though Agent of Asgard was kinda on the line at the end there, unless it had some hidden support in digital or trades or something) I mean JIM wasn't even cancelled at all, it moved on to a new story with Sif. (and then was cancelled. ) and it lasted quite a while with Loki's story. They kept ending because they had a finite premise. an ending was baked into them from the start, even if the specific end point was a fair ways off, or was a bit flexible about specifically when it came. Loki's new book, from what we've been told, has an open ended structure, it can, in theory, continue forever, as long as it maintains decent sales. So supporting it and continuing to support it becomes if anything a bit more important, because they won't let it stretch out a bit to wrap things up as it was intended, it's just, a string of smaller stories, and can be axed at any time, or it could continue indefinitely. though i presume it has some kind of underlying continuing narrative, it's just one that won't spell the end of the book because it reaches it's conclusion.

but it just seems really hard for new solo books to find a niche lately. There are exceptions, though, like Venom. Who could have predicted that would do as well as it has? Let's hope Loki is a bit more like Venom and not like some of the more recent failed solos.

[Rosebunse]

Venom is definitely a standout. Venom itself is a great property that just keeps going and remains really popular, it came out during the movie, and the series itself bas just been incredible! It has no right to be as good as it is.

So can it work for Loki? I don't know, it depends on the quality of the writing and good luck. Also how well the creative team can integrate it into the larger MU. Marvel has done a lot of work with keeping Venom well involved with the events going on and not just keeping him in Spiderman's ghetto.

It definitely seems like work is being done to do the same with Loki and this is just coming off a major event.

Then again, that big Mephisto event seems to be coming up. That could be a fun event for Loki.

I agree with you about kidLoki's hat. While it was definitely based off of an old design, the wings were definitely meant to make him look less menacing snd heroic and connect him to Thor.

[Raye]

I mean it depends on how good it is, and how many people give it a shot. We've seen with Venom, Vision and Hulk that being very good can attract readers that at first gave a book a pass (and it seems a lot of the old school fans are not interested in Loki's book, sadly, at least judging by the solicit threads here) due to word of mouth, but we've also seen some damn good books just fail overcome disinterest to catch on despite their quality. And we just don't know how good Loki will be, yet. So basically at this point it is a crap shoot, since there is just no way to gauge how well received it will be critically. It doesn't have superstar creatives attached (I'm not saying they're not talented, but in terms of comics related name recognition.... they don't rank high) which is a potential strike against it in terms of readership though. I mean sticking someone high profile on it like Neil Gaiman or someone widely recognized, would instantly make it more popular. But they'd also command a higher page rate, so...

What Mephisto event? Do you mean the Avengers storyline, or has something else been announced? I know I speculated he may be involved with Acts of Evil, but it was just speculation, it's not been confirmed. in any case, i definitely think Loki needs another go at Mephisto.

something was bugging me about the War Scrolls story but i couldn't quite put my finger on it, but i think i figured it out. I think it bugs me that it implies he only did the right thing, as in with Freyja, because he was scolded by Wiccan. It kind of sets back his personal development up until this point, imo, for him to not reach that position his own damn self, as it had previously been presented.

[Rosebunse]

I don't think Loki did it just because of Wiccan, but Wiccan would be a part of it. I've said it before, but I just don't think Loki is really someone who can reallt decide to change on his own. He needs that outside influence. I don't think that's a bad thing, not really. It's just a character flaw that I'm not sure Loki can really overcome.

Also, I was thinking about how Loki is supposed to get out and it occurs to me that unless Thor or someone is right next to Laufey, Loki may not have any idea whay is happening. And now we know that this whole thing has been going on for at least days, maybe weeks at this point, so what sort of condition is he even supposed to be in?

[Prof. Aegis]

With the upcoming Disney+ series, that could generate interest in the comic series as well, which could be a plus. And who knows what will be going on in the Thor title, and what MU crossover series will tap into the character and can bring other readers in as well. Yes, definitely a strong and creative writer can do a lot just on the strength of the stories they create and we've seen this before with JiM and AoA. And due to the MCU, there have been new readers and new fans of Loki who don't have connection to the "old-school" fans. This can be a benefit as well and can help spread the word of the series, before and as the issues are published. So I think this series will have a good chance. And we'll get the chance to see the beginning of this series in another month!

[Raye]

Yeah, the show may help, but (and I am not arguing that Loki in the comics should be made to match the MCU version, I think they should remain separate things) they are different enough that I kinda wonder how many MCU only fans will make the jump, i think a lot of the MCU fans are perfectly happy with the movies and shows. anyway, i guess we'll see in a couple months, when the first sales numbers come in. Which, to be fair, need to be taken with a grain of salt, as i keep going on about. they're just a piece of the data, and it may be that some other thing, like digital or trades do keep it afloat even if it sells poorly in the direct market. but we can't count on that, since that's fairly rare.

I don't think Loki did it just because of Wiccan, but Wiccan would be a part of it. I've said it before, but I just don't think Loki is really someone who can reallt decide to change on his own. He needs that outside influence. I don't think that's a bad thing, not really. It's just a character flaw that I'm not sure Loki can really overcome.

I'm sorry, but I just don't agree. at all. All character flaws should be able to be overcome, otherwise any desire to change is utterly pointless, and we as the audience have nothing to cheer them on to overcome on a personal level. (I'm just talking general personality traits here, not actual disabilities.) It may be hard, some characters may never actually accomplish it, but it should be possible. It all comes down to agency again. All characters need agency, to be able to decide their own path. Putting roadblocks in front of them that they can't do anything to fight against, that they have to rely on others to fix for them, removes agency. Especially with Loki's whole deal recently being fighting against fate, which adds it's own set of roadblocks for him to overcome. Are we just supposed to accept his fate and/or personality traits can't be changed and just wait for him to revert to being a villain? Is that what he's supposed to do? Hell no, you fight fate. If he changes, but due to others actions, it's still essentially fate that makes changes for him with no input from him, and destroys the message of him fighting fate to be what HE wants to be rather than someone else. And we HAVE seen him make changes on his own. We've seen him decide to try and change, otherwise he wouldn't be so pissed off at fate, he wouldn't feel like his path is being blocked. He doesn't always get it right, but he's trying, so we already know that's not true that he 'can't decide to change on his own', because he has ALREADY decided to change, even if he feels he's being blocked. But even with fate blocking him, he's still fighting it and making progress despite fate working against him. It's been a bit slow and with some backslides, but he's still made progress, all on his own.

I know it's ok to need help, but I think this particular decision was too big and important to his character development to kinda take it out of his hands and put it in Wiccan's in some side story, is all. It's not like billy was pulling his strings, Loki still decided what he was going to do, so it's not completely removing his agency, but I do feel this particular decision should have been fully his own, not something he was shamed into.

Also, I was thinking about how Loki is supposed to get out and it occurs to me that unless Thor or someone is right next to Laufey, Loki may not have any idea whay is happening. And now we know that this whole thing has been going on for at least days, maybe weeks at this point, so what sort of condition is he even supposed to be in?

Why does it matter if he's aware of what's happening outside? I mean, he's in there and needs to get out, that's all he needs. This particular situation is just about him right now, not anyone else. I mean sure, if he hears something outside that kinda kickstarts him into action that can work too, but I don't think it's strictly needed.

I mean, the fact is, we know he gets out, already. So it's all a bit irrelevant because we know he manages it, and is fine afterwards. So it just doesn't matter, since we know he'll overcome whatever is happening, no matter how bad it is. And the worse it is, the bigger the victory when he does, so bring it on, make it horrific.

[dr4conianlaw]

I don't think it was implying Loki only did what he did saving Freya because of what Wiccan said at all. The opposite, actually. Wiccan pegged Loki as looking for 'forgiveness,' and since Wiccan has had his own struggles with being suicidal, I think he could tell that Loki was already building himself up for the big sacrifice play. That goes into him saying that he wasn't going to forgive Loki, but he did care about him- aka, if he's trying to make the big sacrifice because he thinks it's the only way he can be forgiven it won't work, but that he already cares about him now. It makes him then seeing Loki die anyways hit that much harder.

[Raye]

Maybe... I'd see that in a better light. I can kinda see it, having a second look, but that doesn't seem to quite line up with some of of the dialogue, or the flashback, imo.

also, just wanted to add , this sounds like i am making a much bigger deal of it than I really am. It was more of an annoyance, just a nagging feeling, not something i like, hated, I know it wasn't like Wiccan forced him into anything, or anything. But, you know, I over-explain my stance as usual

[Rosebunse]

Hey, I'm just saying that if it was that easy for him to change and find his inner strength and all that, he would have done it already. It isn't that he lacks agency, that isn't what I'm saying at all, but rather that Loki-like Bojack Horseman, Rose from Titanic, and even Wolverine, and many, many other characters-need an outside influence that forces them to change.

Even Loki didn't really change because of him just being him. This started because his original planned involved him not really changing at all, but rather doing a modified version of what he did to Sif's body.

We only have the Loki we have now because Ikol's data was corrupted and because he hung around the Young Avengers the way he did.

Again, does this mean that he lacks any agency? No, because he still had to make the choice not to go back to straight villainy, but he did need those outside factors or else he wouldn't have changed.

All of this leads back to the fact that Loki is not in a real position to help himself, unless he's been slowly rebuilding himself all this time...which actually might make sense

[Raye]

You didn't say it was hard for him to change, you said it wasn't possible for him to even decide to change, and that is what I took issue with. I just don't buy that, because we have already seen him demonstrate that isn't the case, by making that decision to change, his desire to change is in fact his primary motivation right now. It's not something anyone forced him into, and he has made a lot of progress. I still think he is perfectly capable of doing this himself. He is not so broken that he can't be fixed without someone twisting his arm. He has already shown this by making as much progress as he has. I think he has ALREADY found that inner strength to change, it's just not a lightswitch sort of thing, it takes time and effort, and making some mistakes along the way to get there, which is what we have been watching him do these past several years. The strength he needs is being willing to stay on the path and not give up despite it being difficult and time consuming. (even if he has doubts sometimes, he overcomes them) Other characters can help and be a good influence, sure, but I don't think we should underestimate all the work he has already done on his own, or what he is capable of himself. And I think major turning points, such as the end of WotR #1, should be his own decision, or it undermines his progress. My problem with the story isn't that Billy gave him something to think about, it's about how the story seemed to frame what should be a major turning point as being less about self reflection, which is how Aaron was presenting it previously, than it is him being shamed into action.

(and btw this goes for Bojack etc too. Just because the journey is difficult or they fail doesn't mean its not possible for them to change, or that they have no role in making those changes. Bojack's biggest changes, small though they may be, have come from learning from his own mistakes, not from other characters forcing him to change, even if they give him guidance. It's the difference between cheering the character on, rather than cheering on everyone around them to force them to change. Being forced to change for the better is a hollow victory, and not something to hope for outside of a deconstruction type deal)

Also, the Ikol thing is just speculation, we don't know that is the only reason he changed, even if it is a major contributor. But even if it was the only reason, it is irrelevant, because it is post-Ikol Loki we are talking about here. Just because something external jumpstarted things at one point doesn't mean he will never be capable of changing on his own. If he needed an outside nudge to get him on this path, fine, but that doesn't mean he is not capable of following the path to the end himself.

Also he was feeling guilt over what he did before he teamed up with the Young Avengers, so while their influence helped some, I don't think he wouldn't have changed at all without them. It just would have happened a bit differently.

And I still think he can muster up the magic to get his own damn self out of this mess. Have a little faith in him and his abilities.

[Prof. Aegis]

I think Loki feels he deserves his own destruction due to the destruction he's put in play with Malekith and how his plans to avert such destruction only went all off kilter. At the same time, he's often desired forgiveness and probably doesn't feel anyone would do so due to what he's done. Yes, Loki can grow and change and overcome his own flaws and learn from his own mistakes. In fact we've seen him do so at different times, only to over do his own work and fall back into new mistakes or to miss out on the devious nature of others that throw a kink into Loki's plans. It'll be interesting to see how Loki gets out of Laufey and what new thoughts and mindset he develops that leads him into his new direction.

Speaking of which, I wonder when we'll get some previews of the new series. After issue 6 or after the Omega issue? Just all depends on how WotR ends i suppose.

[Raye]

Oh man i really went on a big ramble there, sorry about that. First thing in the morning, all my brain bits going full tilt.

I think Loki feels he deserves his own destruction due to the destruction he's put in play with Malekith and how his plans to avert such destruction only went all off kilter. At the same time, he's often desired forgiveness and probably doesn't feel anyone would do so due to what he's done.

Yeah, I think Loki is in a major doubt spiral at the moment, i don't think he believes he can do it at this very moment, but I don't think he's right about that, and i think he can snap himself out of it if he thinks it through a bit. He may need some reassurance from friends and family, but I think in general he has it in him to pull through this himself.

Speaking of which, I wonder when we'll get some previews of the new series. After issue 6 or after the Omega issue? Just all depends on how WotR ends i suppose.

If we can take that earlier tweet from Kibblesmith to mean that he only just saw the first interior art, then it's likely going to be at least little while longer before it is coloured and lettered, but we may see some unlettered preview art within the next week. But turns out the Omega issue hits just a week before Loki's first issue, so....

on that note, he made another tweet outlining his upcoming comics work:

https://twitter.com/kibblesmith/stat...68703385530368

Dropped some vague hints about things, make of it what you will: "Omega has a prequel story that sets up #1, Ghost Panther by @Al_Ewing & co has a back-up story by me featuring KNIGHTBLADE who is a mash-up of [redacted] and [guess], Loki #1 is about Loki building a snowman and Loki #2 is about him going to Iron Man’s house and getting yelled at"

edited to add after having a think - Assuming there is some truth to that, even if it's tongue in cheek and over simplified, sounds like maybe Loki makes some kind of ice golem? since I am assuming it's not 20 pages of him rolling around balls of snow, building a literal snowman. maybe that's the 'ice man' character we heard about before? also, it made that song from frozen pop into my head. It wouldn't be the first time they've used Frozen parallels with Loki.

so like, maybe somewhere in between this:


and this:




with a dash of: