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  1. #901
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    place your bets is loki gonna say yeehaw or howdy
    He seems like a "Howdy" type.

    And I love his little hat!

  2. #902
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    Can't wait to see how their first meeting goes back in the west. Love the vest and hat! Annnnnd, we do have time travel going...now to find out how and why and what purpose it can serve Loki.

    Happy that AoA collection will have the Original Sin mini included. Now it's a complete collection!
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  3. #903
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    Kibblesmith certainly wasn't kidding when he said that he would be putting Loki in all sorts of cute little outfits. He's like a freaking doll LOL

    In fact, Marvel, if you want to release a dress up doll for Loki, with lots of cute little collectible outfits, I will buy it.

  4. #904
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Okay, I had to run right after i posted that earlier, so some further thoughts...

    First, I love the cover, there is so much going on but it doesn't feel cluttered, and it looks like a ton of fun.

    and yup, time travel confirmed. But we are still not sure of the details, there are many possibilities here.

    It's a weird 'first teamup' because Loki is time traveling, judging by the solicit text, (whether it is bodily Quantum Leaping into his past self, we'll see) and Logan will end up forgetting the meeting thanks to Weapon X fucking with his mind. So Logan will remember but forget when Weapon X gets ahold of him, and Loki won't remember it until he gets back to the present... so it's like only one of them can remember at a time, and both of them don't remember for a good chunk of modern Marvel history.... Unless it is like i was speculating before that he can only move back, not forward, and will have to live his life from the wild west onward all over again, but we don't know if that's the case yet or not.

    also, I of course had to do cowboy Loki in city:



    https://steamcommunity.com/id/RayeGu...14138473307861

  5. #905
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    I stan that Cowboy Loki, Raye.

    I guess I wonder if Loki can't remember because he simply didn't time-travel before and thus it didn't happen. Thus the story of the MU changes.

  6. #906
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Giving this some more thought, it all depends on the specific mechanics of the time travel employed. There are a few scenarios possible for the whole time travel and who remembers what situation.

    Situation 1 - Bodily time travel, like in Endgame. This means Loki would not remember the teamup until after he had time traveled, cus obviously. BUT bodily time travel to the past and having it affect the present breaks the usual rules of MU time travel, where it should create an alternate reality. But Dr Doom got around this (and in Endgame they got around it, but different universe) so I think Eternity ought to be able to circumvent that.

    Situation 2 - mental time travel, like Moira. Loki's mind inhabits his past self's body. Possibly this is how it gets around the alt universe rule, it seems to with Moira. Would also explain all the cryptic clues he kept dropping, and would allow him to take the reins from his past self with no one being the wiser.
    -variant 1 - savescumming - he can only travel back, not forward. He has to re-live his life to get back to where he is now. It would change the past for him to travel back the first time, but in a very subtle way, as long as he stuck to his personal script. This means he has to act the bad guy despite no longer wanting to, or risk destroying the present he came from. But on the flip side, gives him hundreds of years of character development by the time it gets back to the present. But could possibly mean he is overwriting his past self's mind, so sort of the Kid Loki situation all over again.
    -variant 2 - Quantum Leap -the takeover of his past self is temporary, then he jumps back to his present self, or to the next time he needs to visit. Less risky, but could crate memory gaps in his past self. Also lacks that 'curse' aspect.

    Logan not remembering it is easily explained away due to Weapon X, he got memories back, I know, but say they missed a few, done. However, then we are right back to their meeting in Duggan's Infinity stuff seeming overly familiar. Remember back at the start of that, Loki and Logan seemed to know each other despite not having shared hardly any panel time prior to that? It was weird, they seemed to know each other pretty well, despite having never said 2 words to each other on panel before. So having them both remember would fix that. But if Logan does remember Loki, then why has it never come up until now? for Loki, the only one that would permit Loki to remember the old west teamup with Logan during the whole Infinity mess, is mental time travel, specifically savescumming, though the quantum leaping could maybe work, if his past self witnesses events. Unless that meeting he was ALSO time traveling, from a point after the wild west jump.

    I favor mental time travel.
    Last edited by Raye; 08-22-2019 at 11:15 PM.

  7. #907

  8. #908
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    Great image of Loki!
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  9. #909
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    Well, I figure Loki's meeting with Wolverine was for a few reasons, one of course is sales and attention being that it draws other readers and fans of Wolverine in, and of course since their team-up in Infinity Watch it makes it an easy one to build on from.

    As for the time travel aspect, you make good points, and I could see it going either way depending upon what Eternity's children give to Loki. I could see it being physically shifting through time as who knows where Loki was at that time...Asgard, elsewhere, was he really interacting on Midgard then?

    If he was, then yes, traveling through mind using his body of the time would be another option. But I wonder how easy that would be for him and of course he would have to know where he was at that time, or will this travel be just random?

    Raye, great design on Loki. You nailed it!
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  10. #910
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    That is a great drawing!

    Though I don't know if this is even a concern for Kibblesmith or editorial to address, I do think mental time travel addresses the weirdness in several of his appearances in recent years the best, from the over familiarity with Logan (also, note that Loki always called him Logan, never Wolverine, so that may be related. Though during the late 1800s, technically he should have been going by James? And omg, just realized that Loki and Logan both killed their asshole biological fathers, twice in Loki's case, and carry their names) to seemingly knowing way more than he should have, and the weird cryptic hints he kept dropping all over the place.

    Also, yeah, it may not be a concern with running into his past self during this time, if bodily time travel, since he could very well have been on a different continent, or not even on Earth, but that won't hold true for every time he will visit, since I am assuming this is not a one-off thing. Mental time travel allows him to go back to correct events he was directly involved in, by taking his past self's place. It also allows this to be hidden from Heimdall, who would surely notice if two Lokis were running around from time to time. But on the flip side, certain spans of time, such as the times he was imprisoned, either in the cave with the snake, or in the tree that he was in when first introduced in Marvel, or just a time where he really needed to be doing exactly what he did the first time, would be in effect barred from him. But every power needs limits, so I think that works. This could also explain why they targeted Loki, they may need someone with a very long life, so that it is even possible for them to go back more than 60 years or so, which would limit their pool of potentials significantly.

    Basically, pros and cons to each, but I still think mental covers more bases of what we have seen so far.

    But either way, I think the MU we know now has to already have his time meddling as part of its fabric, we just were never aware of it prior to this. It will reveal how he already fits into past events, rather than outright changing how those events went. To do otherwise would create too many problems for other books/characters, where suddenly continuity is different than what we always knew, and they have to incorporate that becuse of something that happened in a Loki book. I just can't see Marvel doing that. It's also likely they will be staying away from really prominent known events, instead creating new scenarios he has to alter, or alter recent events where some kind of time weirdness was already sort of hinted at.

    Also, I do hope that this is signs that this weird friendship with Wolverine is going to continue, that the Infinity Watch thing wasn't a one-off. They are certainly an odd pairing, but I think it could be fun.
    Last edited by Raye; 08-23-2019 at 11:21 AM.

  11. #911
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    I think what makes Wolverine and Loki work is that, as you pointed out at the end of Infinity Watch, is that Loki isn't a great person, but neither is Wolverine, it's just a lot easier to think of Wolverine as a good guy because that's been his role. Of course, there's also just how "used" to weird shit they both are, but we won't be getting that in this since Wolverine will still be a relatively "young" man who hasn't gone through all the shit he one day will.

    Also, did anyone see the solicits for the new King Thor issue in November? Do you think Necrogod Loki will be killed? And given how symbiotes work, is Gorr just hiding in All Black's DNA?

  12. #912
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    I agree, weird shit is common for both of them, so they know how to handle it. Plus, as you say they both have their faults...they aren't the regular "good guys", so they can work well together. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how this works as their first meeting...How does Logan react to Loki and same with Loki with Logan as he's interacted with him before.

    Good question on Gorr's DNA. I was trying to figure out where he would come from and that has some merit. Idk, if NecroLoki will be killed or if something else happens where maybe and yes I know this is a stretch, perhaps taking the Necrosword away clears his mind and he and Thor stop Gorr in issue 4. But yeah, I could also see that not being the case and Gorr killing Loki, taking back the sword and having the final battle in issue 4.

    And I'm very interested in Loki 3 to see what his new power actually is and how it will work...be it mental or physical aspects. Because then it'll help to understand the potential take on the future stories. 3 more weeks to go.
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  13. #913
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    ok, so I dug out Origin, and I had forgotten that Rose had kinda saddled him with the name Logan in order to keep them hidden, so Loki knowing Wolverine primarily as Logan does make sense, especially if this is the first teamup from Loki's perspective as well, (though of course he would be aware of Wolverine, i just mean in a 'worked together' sense) and Infinity Watch was some more time travel shenanigans done afterward. Will be interesting to see which recent events were actually time travel and which were for real. My bet is Infinity Watch, running for president, Asgardians of the Galaxy, and the Sorcerer Supreme stuff were time travel, while him moping around hating his life was for real. But if Infinity Watch was time travel, then there is some weirdness for both scenarios. It could indicate mental time travel, since at the end Loki seemed to think he had to go get eaten by Laufey, if that was bodily time travel, then he wouldn't have been thinking that. but he also seemed to think that being eaten would be the end of him, but if time travel he would know he'd survive. Same with Asgardians of the Galaxy, if that is time travel. If it was bodily time travel, he would have no need to create that Kid Loki illusion, he could just go with Angela as himself. the whole issue of memories and stuff is a question that hangs over that though. The whole situation would also seem to create a paradoxical time loop, where the situation that leads to the time traveling is only possible because of the time traveling. But yeah we'll see in issue 3 and beyond what the deal actually is.

    and Gorr, i don't know, it does seem like as Gorr enters the story, Loki leaves it, so...

  14. #914
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    I don't know, that all involves a rather lot of retconing and gymnastics to work. Plus, Loki's mopiness was attributed to his own depression and uncertainty about his relationship with Laufey and all of his other stuff.

    Plus, I fear that if they make this too complicated, it'll just turn off people. Marvel time travel should be trippy, not too complicated, especially when you have other books and writers involved.

    If you consider All Black to be just a symbiote, then it obeys certain rules. We know that it itself didn't have a strong personality to begin with, which, as we've seen with Carnage/Cletus Kassidy, means that a host can overpower it and take control. With the retcon that symbiotes take the DNA from their hosts, and given how strong Gorr was, then it makes sense that he's probably exerting some level of control over All Black and has been for a very long time. It makes you wonder how this all ties back together and how deep this could go.

  15. #915
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    you're the one who wanted them to go in and mess around with continuity. This wouldn't be changing any continuity, it's just changing the context of Loki's involvement. The events themselves would play out exactly the same, there would be no messing around with other characters or books past continuity, you could still read Vote Loki or his arc of Dr Strange or whatever and nothing about the events in the story would change in the slightest. The only retcon is 'this bit he was time traveling' and maybe why, show what would have happened if he hadn't. Like Dr Strange is already easy to infer, if he hadn't fixed magic, everything would be fucked. Malekith likely would have at the very least killed tens of thousands more than he had, if magic was still busted when WotR happened, he may even have won. And it's really not hard to show that in the context of Loki's book if it's part of the central premise, which it seems to be. And when it comes to previously shown events, they are ones where it was already hinted that Loki had knowledge of the future from the warnings and hints he kept dropping. I've been saying for a couple years now that Loki had too much knowledge in some of his appearances, when he comes in and just flat out tells Dr Strange about things that will happen in the future, and how it said he had time traveled in Asgardians of the Galaxy, (it just wasn't clear about when he started out) being the most obvious examples, but the whole deal with the Celestials and stuff could also count there. This just explains HOW he got that knowledge. We've come up with theories about how before, but now here we are with a story where he's almost definitely going to be getting a new power dealing with time travel, so... I remember saying with Asgardians of the Galaxy that time travel might be too much, but I think if they took one of the more creative routes, like the possessing his past self, which imposes some more limits and restrictions, it could be ok.

    And yes, I know his mopiness was due to his depression and uncertainty. That's why I think that was him acting in the 'now' rather than time travel shenanigans. When he showed up in some of his other appearances he seemed in much better spirits, that's him from the future.

    Also, occurred to me there is another possibility, which is sort of related to the mental time traveling is that we have already seen Loki astral project back in time by like millions of years. They may have already shown us how it works. Astral projection could be used to either possess his past self, or just send warnings and instructions, or just look and see what happened.
    Last edited by Raye; 08-24-2019 at 07:15 PM.

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