Loki Appreciation 2019

[Raye]

You're right it may be Thor's thoughts, and we don't know why Thor locked him away. It seems like, in King Thor he may have imprisoned him in Muspelheim for the first destruction of the world, but I am still looking for a way to reconcile the futures in Loki and the King Thor stuff, so that doesn't seem to line up. May it have been that someone destroyed the world, Thor wasn't there, and just assumed it was Loki?

[Lambadelta]

You're right it may be Thor's thoughts, and we don't know why Thor locked him away. It seems like, in King Thor he may have imprisoned him in Muspelheim for the first destruction of the world, but I am still looking for a way to reconcile the futures in Loki and the King Thor stuff, so that doesn't seem to line up. May it have been that someone destroyed the world, Thor wasn't there, and just assumed it was Loki?

I think if that is the case and if Loki truly didn't have anything to do with the destruction and in fact did his hardest to prevent it, like it seems like he is doing now. I do think Future "Thor" is Loki. And if Thor instantly believes it was Loki and blames him without even knowing the facts and imprisons Loki in Muspelheim, where Loki literally has to eat his way out, then I can see why Loki becomes what he does and why there is so much bitterness and hatred, the likes of which he's never felt before.

I'm not sure how far in the future the one in Loki's story takes place. We know that Thor's story takes place millions of years in future. We know that all the stuff that happened with Loki didn't happen until a million years before the start of King Thor, as it mentioned that Gorr fall a million years ago and all the stuff with Loki came after. So there's millions of years before that are uncounted for and it could expend from 2 million to a 100 million.

We know apparently Thor is old but the confusing part is future "Thor" in the end he seemed to look quite young to me, okay we didn't actually see very much of his face, in fact we didn't see face at all but he doesn't really give of the presence of someone looking old. But this is quite conflicting in knowing when the future in Loki's story takes place because it could also be millions of years or it could be much more recent.

But if Loki is future Thor and he truly does look young while Thor is truly old, I wonder why this is the case.

[Raye]

The problem is we can't be sure at the moment that the future in King Thor and in Loki's book are the SAME future. I was working under the assumption that they were, because that just kind of makes sense to me from a publishing perspective, to have these two closely related books, the characters literally brothers, and Loki's book spinning out of Thor's book and all, and both telling a story of the end of times, to actually be telling the story of the same future from different perspectives. But with the King Thor preview, i am not so sure any more. But we will see, there may be a twist yet that makes them line up with each other. But yeah, if Loki really didn't destroy the world and Thor imprisoned him anyway just because it's Loki, I can see why he'd become so bitter and angry.

and i dunno, while he didn't look as old as King Thor, he did seem older to me. I presume this takes place quite some time before the end of the universe bit, so King Thor wouldn't have been as old looking at this point either, i would assume. And Loki did get reborn into a new body not long ago, and though it got aged up, he's still physically younger than he was before, which I would guess would give him some additional wiggle room there, compared to Thor.

[Rosebunse]

I guess my issue is, we first saw King Thor in the previous universe where King Loki went on a rampage and killed a bunch of people and contributed to all life on Earth seemingly being destroyed. So with the Incursions and everything in Ewing's AoA, is this the same universe or have things changed?

Is this an example of the different universes in Marvel or what is it?

Personally, I think Kibblesmith is working with an entirely different future and timeline from the one Aaron is working with.

I mean, given what King Loki did in that one future, it only makes sense that Thor would chain him somewhere he couldn't leave. That Loki was incredibly dangerous.

And unless that book is a fake, I can't see Thor lying to Loki...unless Thor really is turning into Odin, in which case that is exactly something Odin would do.

[Prof. Aegis]

I'm not so sure the future universes are the same. Aaron has been working his for like 7 years and it's coming to an end. I feel Kibblesmith is starting with the present but moving in a new direction. A new future. I could be wrong on this, but we'll see as things present themselves.

And Ewing was working with Aaron's future with AoA, but with Secret Wars reseting the universe, the future can have multiple directions and endings. Aaron's could still be working from what he set in motion before and with ties to King Loki from AoA, but Kibblesmith can tap into other aspects and events that can create new developments.

And I don't see Thor lying to Loki at this point in time. He just ended the War of the Realms, and became All-Father. I don't see him with the behaviors of Odin this early. Which again, makes me feel this is a different future.

[Rosebunse]

I'm not so sure the future universes are the same. Aaron has been working his for like 7 years and it's coming to an end. I feel Kibblesmith is starting with the present but moving in a new direction. A new future. I could be wrong on this, but we'll see as things present themselves.

And Ewing was working with Aaron's future with AoA, but with Secret Wars reseting the universe, the future can have multiple directions and endings. Aaron's could still be working from what he set in motion before and with ties to King Loki from AoA, but Kibblesmith can tap into other aspects and events that can create new developments.

And I don't see Thor lying to Loki at this point in time. He just ended the War of the Realms, and became All-Father. I don't see him with the behaviors of Odin this early. Which again, makes me feel this is a different future.

Yeah, and Marvel is certainly aware of and are happy to use their multiple universes right now. We also have multiple futures at play with what is happening with this new girl who is either trying to find her wife or going to end herself.

I guess the ultimate question is, how weird is Kibblesmith willing to go with this time travel? I deep is he wanting to get?

Right now, I think Aaron's universe is still the one he was playing with originally, just it's likely been reset after the Incursions and that's why we have King Loki back.

This thing in Kibblesmith's book is its own future that may be similar to the King Thor future, but not exactly.

[Lambadelta]

Yeah, something tells me they are two different futures. It's likely that events that has happened in WOTR and what is happening in Loki has already changed the King Thor future. And yeah, I don't see Thor lying to Loki and becoming Odin at this point, since he's only just very recently became the All father.

Also as I said before, Loki saw the future for himself when he was pulled into the house of ideas. So even if there is an off chance Thor was lying, it was still seen by Loki. I think also the fact that Loki himself also took a glimpse of what he would become might have a lot to do with the future possibly changing from King Thor's future where Necro-Loki exists and Loki's future where he becomes Thor. I think Loki will do anything he can to make sure King Thor's future doesn't come to pass because he doesn't want to end up like King Loki.


I think Aaron's future is more of what could have happened if things had worked out differently, at least I hope anyway.

[Raye]

I am going to wait until Wednesday before i say if i think they are different timelines or not. I think it all depends on what happens after the end of the world.

I don't think Thor is lying, so much as he doesn't have all the information. He may think he does, but... if anything the books he read were lying, because I do not think Thor has it in him to do that, even if he thought it was in Loki, and everyone elses, best interest.

[Rosebunse]

I am going to wait until Wednesday before i say if i think they are different timelines or not. I think it all depends on what happens after the end of the world.

I don't think Thor is lying, so much as he doesn't have all the information. He may think he does, but... if anything the books he read were lying, because I do not think Thor has it in him to do that, even if he thought it was in Loki, and everyone elses, best interest.

Yeah, Thor would probably try and talk him out of it or something.

Also, we have another puzzle piece out for that murder and all of this more and more makes me think this event revolves around Teddy. But if it is Teddy, where is Wiccan and they had better use Loki for something, especially since Raye, you're probably right about the X-Men siding with the Kree. Even if Loki isn't made an official Avenger, they will need all the help they can get.

[Raye]

As I said in the other thread, I take back my X-men theory in light of the new pages, and I am pretty sure now it is not an event, (at least not right away, see my other post for more details) and it is just a preview issue of some kind. A couple pages per book showcasing what is going on around the MU, and that the Avengers page is just showing the Star Brand story we already know is coming up. But that does mean we may have a Loki teaser coming up, since we already had one for Valkyrie, and if it is lead-up to a Kree event, Kibblesmith already hinted at some upcoming Kree stuff for Loki.

[Rosebunse]

OK, I have this more fleshed out...

So we know we have Mephisto in the Avengers. He's doing...something with Coulson where they have these ultra American superhero clones or something. So what if part of this event is some sort of SHRA variant where they are testing for superpowers, like, genetic testing for alien DNA as well as mutant and Inhuman DNA. This is all with the intention of destabilizing the superhero community. It's also a fun jab at comparing the Trump administration to Satan, but in such a subtle way that the conservatives may not notice.

How does Loki get involved? Well, Mephisto, duh. Loki will think that he can use his new powers to reset things, but the issue will be that between here and then, Mephisto will find out and make plans to stop him, which will force Loki to resort to...something, I'm not sure.

But theorizing is fun.

[Raye]

While i could see Loki getting involved in the Mephisto story, I don't think the Kree story and the Mephisto story are necessarily linked, at least not in more than a tangential way.

ANOTHER podcast interview: https://www.blogtalkradio.com/graphi...n-the-internet

As before here are the relevant Loki related points of interest that stood out to me in case you don't have an hour to spare (fair warning the host tends to ask very in depth questions, so she's going to come up a lot because context, and it leads to very long in depth answers):

- while discussing AUs in various universes, they bring up a Marvel AU mapped to Star Trek tropes, the host mentions that in such a scenario, Loki is obviously Q, to which Kibblesmith says 'yeah' in terms of personality

- ...but that Q is waaaay more powerful than Loki is in his book (I mean he's omnipotent so yeah, he's like Beyonder level powers wise) and that he needed a Loki who 'could 'get the crap beaten out of him'

- Host says she has read most of the modern Loki stuff, favorite being JIM which she says is probably one of the best comics of the 2000's, and mentions that it's interesting that Loki is this silver age character who has gone through a big evolution, transforming into a character that people would like and want to cheer on, and how do you reconcile that with all the terrible things he's done before, and that it was interesting to see how other writers have dealt with that, and asks what his thoughts on that were coming into the book. Kibblesmith says, it's "a 60 year redemption project" and that as she mentioned there were some 'tremendous' Loki as protagonist comics leading into this, and it's kind of intimidating to be following up on them. But that he mostly just treated him the way you would treat any protagonist, in that 'he is a person who thinks he's right. He's good at what he does, and thinks he's right.' and that with other protagonist villains like Doom or Magneto it's easy to put yourself in their shoes. And that with Loki, it's was (and gonna post this verbatim, even though it's long, because i think it was well put) "really fun, because he's a 'chaotic neutral person who's gained self awareness about how to help the world, but it doesn't come naturally to him. But he IS being rewarded for doing it. So you have this person who really wants to be good, for various and shifting reasons. And I think that's enough to drive a story. You have somebody who has the goal of wanting to keep a good thing going, and the ever looming fear of it not working out. Because he is afraid of his own nature, or aware of his own nature." And that he thinks that's something everyone can relate to on some level. And says it's not that different from Wolverine, who wants to be good but is constantly fighting his violent nature. Says current Loki is very much a Marvel hero. In that he is flawed hero, in the shadow of 'his perfect golden brother who is literally king of the universe' and that as much as he loves Thor, it's easier for him personally to relate to Loki.

- says there is a dichotomy forming in the Asgard fandom like the Batman vs Superman fandom at DC, but Thor vs Loki. one group wants aspirational, the other wants relatable and flawed. And that people gravitate towards characters for deeply personal reasons.

- host says the heroic push for Loki began after the first Thor movie (disagree here somewhat, seeing as JiM predated Thor. not by much but still) largely because people found him sexy and charismatic. But also that the shift may have started earlier with Lady Loki, even tho Loki was being evil there, but got more of a character push and was more well rounded. Kibblesmith responds saying that he agreed that it was around that time, JMS' run and Lady Loki, that Marvel began to figure out there was more to the character than just being a foil to Thor. But that he felt like Loki has "always been sympathetic in theory, the same way Dr Doom and Magneto have been um, if not sympathetic, you can at least recognize their motives" and that Loki "looks like an evil old man, he looks like the devil" for most of his early history, and that he thinks the evolution of Loki sort of coincided with the evolution of comics in general, where it was sort of collectively decided that all the characters were interesting, not just the heroes. And that they were running out of stories where "Loki just did something crappy and Thor figures it out and hits him with a hammer" and that even around the Walt Simonson stuff, you start to see Asgard as more of a bigger soap opera with new characters, expanded scope, and Loki becomes more of 'another Asgardian' rather than just Thor's foil. And then the modern stories happened, where the bad guys started getting more development and spotlight, and they began looking at him more in depth and figuring out what he was all about.

TLDR; he thinks this has been a long time coming and a lot of things led to Loki being a hero now. Hence, 60 year redemption arc.

- host says that one of the things that makes you able to see where Loki is coming from is the fact that he's a small frost giant, and so obviously he's going to shapeshift if he's going to want to fit in, and it's easier for him in Asgard since he's human sized, and that if you think it through, if Loki is a human sized frost giant and is so different from other giants, then there must be other frost giants that don't fit in too. Enter Drrf. Kibblesmith explains Drrf for people who may not be familiar with him, won't bother repeating it here, it's all in the comics. Says that he wanted a character Loki genuinely sympathized with, vs seeing opportunity in being kind to them. And that he would be most able to identify with basically a version of himself. so he gets to Jotunheim and he gets what Drrf is going through exactly, and it awakens a protective side of him.

- host says that with characters that turn face, it's sometimes hard to find the balance between retaining what made them cool and likable when they are made good guys, that you can't make them soft and sweet, they are more complex than that,a nd that if it goes too far it can lead to woobification, (tho she says she doesn't like the TV Tropes definition but I think we get what she's saying here) Basically, "how do you do a Loki who is capable of changing, and is as you said a 60 year redemption project while still keeping some of their sharp corners that are essential to him being the god of mischief?" Kibblesmith says that he thinks Loki is "a little bit immune to that phenomenon" and that he thinks about things that he likes, "like Spike on Buffy" (good taste, I love Spike) and that it's sort of a thing on TV where the villains sort of get absorbed into the gang, like Spike became a Scoobie, or Zuko joined Aang's group etc. because viewers like them, so they join the team and fight bigger villains. But back to woobification, says Loki is kinf of immune to it because "he's not on a leash, he's not a bad guy all the time, who is now acting out of character. He's a literally shapeshifting mercurial liar who is doing things for different reasons in different moments." and says that if they were lucky enough to do 50 issues of Loki being a hero, and then in the final one he "blows up the earth and says 'surprise! I'm evil!' that you might be disappointed as a reader, and also because that's a completely insane story, but no one could say 'well that's not Loki" and that's why he's "immune to defanging" because you never really know with him. Says that "if you put Joker on the Justice League, then you have a lot of questions. But Thor has always wanted Loki to come back into the fold." and that he thinks everyone can probably relate to having someone in their lives who is some kind of screwup, addict, mentally ill, whatever, and you always see a version of them in your head where everything works out, and keep the door open for that to happen. That is Thor and Loki.

- Says that Loki finds himself in a bigger situation than it may first appear, and that it will allow him to maybe play with the rules of Marvel a bit, and that when you have a character like Loki who is a creature of story and myth, it grants opportunities in that regard that other characters wouldn't. Says there will be a little bit of 4th wall breaking with Loki's Trickster Tips which will be in every issue, and playing with the idea that "Loki has some degree of omniscient narration, but is still caught off guard by things" and that he says that as the writer he has his own theories about how Loki is able to narrate the story in the way that he does, and what he does and doesn't know.

- Host says that she feels like this degree of 4th wall breaking is in line with Agent of Asgard's breaking of the 4th wall, and that it has a distinctly Loki flavor to it and that it would be a shame if it lost it's distinct flavour to be more Deadpool like. Kibblesmith says there is a hierarchy, and that "Loki is up against the 4th wall kind of whispering to you, and She-hulk breaks the 4th wall, and Deadpool is shooting at you through the 4th wall"

- compares writing Loki to "playing a big open world Zelda game, where it's like what does this character need and how is he going to get it?" while Late Show/Colbert is more like Mario Kart. so, you know that Breath of the Wild thing in the Pinterest

[Raye]

Yes, they talked so much this went OVER THE CHARACTER LIMIT:

- Host asks about the now famous Low Key shirt, and if he was aware going in that it would become a cosplay phenomenon, if it was something Marvel might sell, how did he come up with the gag.... and Kibblesmith jsut says "a million percent, all of the above" because he's the guy who'd buy that shirt, he goes to the gym in his 'I'm not Daredevil' shirt, and has the 'Hawk Guy' shirt, and that everything in Loki is meta narrative, so he jsut went 'hey you know what would be funny? and you know what he would actually do, in character, is wear a funny t-shirt that calls attention to him as a celebrity as he's going out in the city in his street clothes." and that obviously it would be eay for cosplayuers which would be fun, and could conceivably be in a store at some point.

- Host comments on fashion in general in the book, and asks how those choices make it to the page. He says most of the clothing choice are in the script, and that's just something he likes to do as a writer. he says that one of the things he likes about superhero comics is the human aspect,so the fashion goes along with that, and that you can learn a lot about characters from the street clothes they choose to wear, going back to Wolverine and his cowboy hats and jackets. Says it is important ot him to put Loki in a lot of little outfits. Says Loki is 'confident, he knows he looks great' and that he's 'in on the bit' and that even in civvies it's still sort of a costume, like Loki is wearing green, even his glasses, which is very Loki.

- comparing Loki and Tony Stark, specifically their reactions to when Tony's head appeared on his digital secretary's body, and how Loki was all talking about how he went femme he did it this way while Tony is like not even acknowledging bodies exist. Kibblesmith says Lok, 'spends enough time in a female body that he is aware of his own prettiness, in any form, and how he likes to accentuate it. And he's also a theatrical person..... and that it would make sense for Loki to have carefully chosen outfits for the occasion so he can, you know, make an entrance, and work a room, and it's a form of manipulation. which is, ultimately, his whole deal." And that in contrast "Tony's not even thinking about it. tony's jut in the computer.... he's just pure information in that moment."

so yeah, Loki and Tony very similar in a lot of ways, not not all ways.

[Rosebunse]

Does he actually call them "little outfits" again? Because that is adorable!

[Lambadelta]

Some interesting points that was talked about there. Yeah, as a protagonist Loki can’t be all-powerful like Q otherwise that would be boring .

Kibblesmith saying that Loki is basically on a 60-year redemption journey makes me hopeful that they aren’t going to try and revert Loki back to what he was like before Kid-Loki. But I also like how Kibblesmith pointed out you can’t really hold Loki down to one role because really, he can be anything and it can keep changing from book to book. He can be good, a hero. He can be neither and just be neutral or he can be evil, a villain. Maybe this is what makes Loki such a compelling character that you can write him in so many ways and it never feels weird.

But I’m glad that for the moment they are continuing to move forward with Loki rather than backwards.
I can’t wait to see Loki in all these little outfits! I actually love Loki in normal street wear and he seems to more often than not go for the casual style rather than the fancy suit kind of guy, although he wears those to at times.

Another thing that Kibblesmith said was that he wanted to dabble a bit more into Loki’s powers and what he can do. So maybe we’ll get a better definition of them or we’re just going to get something that completely defies all logic and meaning and is complete madness, either way I’m up for it.