Loki Appreciation 2019

[Rosebunse]

It's interesting that Kibblesmith is so sure to call Loki a hero. This book really the first time where we've seen Marvel be sure that Loki is on the side of the heroes, even if he can be quite versatile. It's quite fun.

The line about Loki needing to be able to get the crap beaten out of him is also interesting, since Loki isn't often really seen as a physical character, though he does fight and has been shown to be quite good at it.

[Raye]

yes, "little outfits" was his exact wording there. but i did really like what he said there, it turned what could have been a fluff question into something astute and revealing about the character. Because it is true that dressing him up, while fun, is also a form of manipulation on his part, and part of how Loki gets people to do what he wants. Like with Tony, I am sure it wasn't just a case of him not wanting to get into the armor, or it was too hot or whatever, but that he quite consciously chose to approach him in street clothes, to send Tony a message 'hey, I'm here as a person, not to attack you in some supervillain plot' sure it didn't really work that well, because of his past history with villainy, but... it was still a better choice than approaching him decked out in full Asgard attire. It's also likely why we still have never seen him in his natural birth form as an adult, except in an AU in that What If. He mainly deals with Asgard and Midgard, so looking like them is going to put people more at ease with him, even if they know he is technically a frost giant. And why we *might* finally see it in the main universe now that he's king of the Frost Giants. If he's going to win their trust, would it maybe be better for him to drop the Asgardian disguise for once? But I think that is iffy because i think there is a degree of self loathing associated there as well.

And what I found interesting about how he described it as '60 year redemption arc' is that, when you think about it, while it's true in hindsight that over the years he's slowly gained attributes that have led him here, it's only within the past 10 years that I think anyone was actually working towards the goal of redemption. The 50 years prior to that, the goal was to make him a more engaging villain, mor interesting and well rounded, but still a bad guy. It wasn't until Gillen got his hands on him that an actual face turn seemed like it might actually work. But at the same time, that would not have worked without the steps taken by earlier writers to make him a more engaging character, even if they never intended to have him turn face.

And yeah, I hope we get some more definition to his abilities and what he can and can't do.

and the line about him being able to have the crap beat out of him i think is less about him engaging with his problems in a physical way, and more that he was saying Loki needed to have the chance that he could be harmed, or there are no stakes.

[Rosebunse]

Oh, I know, it's just funny that he keeps calling them "little outfits." It makes him sound like a doll or pet LOL

But yes, clothing is very important and it's nice that Kibblesmith is planning for that. I can only imagine that he probably has quite a few outfits planned, especially if we're getting different time periods and situations. But even if he is planning for a lot, Kibblesmith seems very aware that his time could be limited and he's very lucky for any time he gets out of this.


What I find interesting about the 60-year redemption arc is, yes, like you say, Raye, it's only been in the past ten years that Loki's had his redemption, but it's also made him into a very modern character. He's very special that way and came around at just the right time. I'm not sure he could have worked had this happened at any other point in comic history.

[Lambadelta]

Yeah, one can’t discount everything that came before Kid-Loki even if that’s when his character arc started to change, and the question of redemption came in. I think though the changing of the times helped with that as well because with it came a change in how comic books and even other media was written.

I think the reason why we saw writers try and write Loki as a more engaging character but still kept him as a bad guy is because comics back in the day had a very simplistic Good and evil theme, where almost all characters were put into one of the two boxes. I mean there were exceptions, but they were extremely rare.
But I think Comics are very much moving past all that and a middle ground is being more establish, better known as the grey area. Writers are giving their characters more flaws instead of kind of writers a hero that is almost perfect or a villain that is not so perfect.

In a way modern Loki is more in line with the Loki in myths, but also not quite.

in fact I was thinking about what Kibblesmith said in the letter at the end of Loki #1 about how none of the titles truly ever stuck for Loki, at least not in any concrete way. But then I was thinking about what Loki truly represents both in comics and myths and the answer is, change. Loki is pretty much the embodiment of change. So I wonder if this is what Loki is truly the god of. Change also very much coincides with time and if Loki's new power does have something to do with time, then it's quite fitting

[Rosebunse]

I was thinking about the kidLoki thing and I realized that maybe Kibblesmith is right. Yes, the change started with Lady Loki and Siege and kidLoki, but it kept on seemingly because of the first Thor movie and Hiddleston's subsequent success as the character. And then it was cemented as time wore on and we all realized how much we loved this version of the character.

[Raye]

Yes he is closer now to the myths than he was in the early days, not quite the same but closer in terms of being more of a trickster than an evil figure. And generally, tricksters in most pantheons are agents of change, they are there to snap people out of comfortable established norms and drag them kicking and screaming into an uncertain but necessary future. Sometimes the future is good, sometimes it's not, but it's still necessary to move forward rather than just remain in place. Which may be why Loki's face turn works when some others have not, because it plays to the core of his character, and can make that meta commentary about comics getting stuck in safe and comfortable ruts the way other characters can't. And I think Kibblesmith is playing to this aspect of tricksters quite deliberately, with how boring Loki finds the prospect of his 'happily ever after' and he'd much rather have a more interesting but uncertain future for himself, and everyone else as a side effect.

[Prof. Aegis]

I agree with this...He has been about change since Lady Loki. Each aspect is a new development and growth in the character and brings another level of change to Loki. And each of his books or stories has represented this from JMS Thor, to Siege, JiM, AoA, Vote Loki, and now. Constantly adding another dimension to him and creating change within him as well as around him due to his interactions.

I also see the meta aspect with him and him being used in a way to express the current or past perceptions or even future directions. He seems to be one of the few that you can do much with and it isn't out of character anymore since he is very multi-faceted.

And the Happily Ever After really works within real life as well. People will often say they want that Happily Ever After life, but if it means a mundane and predictable, i.e. boring existence, many will not choose that and want a life that has uncertainty and possibilities. It's quite interesting on how it reflects humanity.

[Raye]

So, I read both Loki and King Thor...

spoilers:

So it's not time travel in Loki, or even a power, really, so much as it is that he gets additional story pages to fill, meaning he can fit more time/events into his life. In the House of Ideas, they have books for all the characters, and some have more books than others for various reasons, which allows them to fit more events into a single lifetime. It may in effect appear to be like time traveling if he's filling in story pages that take place in the past, but then again, Loki doesn't seem to remember the meeting. They say no one who has struck this deal (Thor, Wolverine, and Spider-Man mentioned specifically) does. Though apparently Thor never struck a deal, he was just given extra pages 'cus he's Thor. In any case, they give Loki extra pages/time after he wins a trial by chess, (I suspect just a formality to make him think this was legit) so that he can fulfill his duties in Jotunheim and also do adventures on Midgard and be a hero, and send him on his way. Loki seems to realize this is probably not the best idea he's ever had, but he's bored. After he's gone, they mention that he will have his story written as a hero, with a heroes death that 'not even he would dare return from' so it would seem they want him to die, they're just doing it in a way that he gets the death, and life preceding it, that he wants. I don't think they are being malevolent here, or targeting Loki for personal reasons, i think they are just trying to protect the future in the best way they are able, and in the great game of chess of the MU, Loki is a sacrificial pawn. At least they're letting him go out a hero. I suspect this is how it connects with what we see in King Thor, maybe. Like, maybe to prevent him from doing all that bad stuff in the future, just kill him instead. But then again, well... I was hoping this might iron things over there, but... at best it seems it will just ensure it never happens. Also, since it is not actual time travel (at least not yet, the solicit for 5 seems to imply it may end up being that) or even future knowledge, then it doesn't really address the times he's popped up with those odd cryptic hints about the future. Anyway, Loki gets sent back out into the world, and wakes up in a fountain outside of Stark tower, his memories of events all fuzzy, and the timeline is strange, because he got sucked IN to the house of ideas after his meeting with Thor, and exited after his meeting with tony, so time is definitely wonky there, but i guess that's to be expected. It seems to imply that maybe the meeting with Tony was more their doing than his. Anyway, then the sun goes dark, and Nightmare comes for him, says some things that play to Loki's fears, mostly that he's afraid of people knowing about the fate of Kid Loki (though at this point, I kinda think that ship has sailed, to be honest, Thor and the other Asgardians know, as well as the Young Avengers, so...) and then he convinces Loki that he never escaped Laufey's gut, and the final page is back to WotR, and him being digested. Which we know isn't true, but given the odd dream sequence Loki experienced while that was happening, it wouldn't be unreasonable for him to think that he just slipped into a new dream to escape the trauma. and then King Thor... honestly this was just disappointing to me, at least as far as Loki was concerned. It seemed like he just wanted this fight at the end of time so that Thor and Loki could die in a way that mirrored Knull and that other god, when Gorr stole the Necrosword in the first place. And it just kind of went all in with Loki being just bad at his core and irredeemable. It may be that the next issue reveals some twist that changes that, (I suspect the next issue is actually going to be a flashback to the end of the world... the first one) but as it stands right now, it just seems to be brushing everything aside that was done with Loki, which is disappointing.

end of spoilers

[Lambadelta]

I put everything under the spoil but this is more replying to everything above.

spoilers:

I still think time travelling will be involved but it will probably just be from Loki’s own power. I mean Kibblesmith did say he wanted to explore Loki’s powers a bit more and Loki has been known to time travel, once when he travelled back in time where he set up events where Odin adopted him, King Loki travelled back in time in AOA and if Future “Thor” is Loki you have him sending an astral projection back in time. I think this might cause Loki is change certain things, not in a major way but in a minor way that could have massive repercussions in the future. So he doesn't have much effect on the past but massive effect on the future and how the future shapes up, depending on what small things he changes in the past. Actually this might be why Nightmare mentions about Loki's worst nightmare being that everyone finds out about Kid Loki. We know that everyone already knows but what if Loki either on purpose or by accident changed that and now they truly don't know anymore? This is someone that could lead to massive repercussions espeically in terms of Loki's and Thor's relationship. I think Now and Then’s words about Loki staying dead can be interpreted in two ways. It could be interpreted in a way of them saying that because they want Loki to stay dead so the future, we see in King Thor doesn’t happen or they might be saying it that Loki himself would be better off if he was killed off instead of being resurrected or reincarnated because it would lead to him eventually being trapped in a firey hell until he manages to escape. It’s disappointing what Aaron is doing to Loki in his own book but really, I don’t think the events in Loki necessarily have much to do with King Thor’s future. I still believe that is a different timeline. Mainly because of what happens in Loki # 1 with what future “Thor” said. He mentioned the end of all things, which is basically what is happening in King Thor’s future. The end of everything is basically being played out but while in that future it’s heavily hinted that Loki is the cause of that. In the future we see with future “Thor” the opposite is pretty much hinted but in a lesser way. But if this is true it seems to imply that no matter what they can’t stop the end from coming eventually and that someone will be the end of all things, whether it’s Loki or the brother in question or someone else. Unless we see Future “Thor” possibly get it right and manages to warn the right “Brother”. Because maybe it’s not actually Loki’s death that will prevent the end from happening but rather stopping a certain event that inevitable leads up to it.

end of spoilers

That's my rambling thoughts on everything. I think regarding Thor, I think I'm not going to worry about that right now and plus I think we won't find out any twists until the end of King Thor #2 or in King Thor #3.

[Snoop Dogg]

#3 was friggin' fantastic, goddamn. This is the meta-wank I want!

I like to think of the King Thor future as the worst-case scenario for the universe, so I like that the family completely fell apart and their relationship is at its worst possible point. With so many issues left, though, I expect a turn since Jason's been pretending he's mean to the baby while actually being good to him for like four years now.

[Lambadelta]

Yeah, Aaron does seem to like a twist when it comes to Loki. He’s constantly making you question Loki, in a way that you just don’t know is really happening with him.

But even if what we see is really the case, it seems that Aaron set it up, so it doesn’t effect how Kibblesmith or future writers of Loki wants to write him. Future timelines can easily be rewritten and changed since they are never set in stone and they don’t necessarily have to effect current storylines especially ones that happen millions of years into the future.

Actually reading some of the letters at the end of Loki #3 and Kibblesmith has this to say

"Loki is the spirit and embodiment of change and the potential to change. He's been a gross old weirdo. A cute little kid. A femme fatale, a cat and most recently a male-presenting humanoid Asgardian thought construct whom we enjoy dressing in different little costumes. He's redeemable because he's a creation of fiction and he kinda, sorta maybe knows it--or acts like he does--so what not just declare himself as the hero and see if it will stick this time?

So Kibblesmith himself doesn't think that Loki is irredeemable which is good enough for me.

[Raye]

Yeah, the King Thor stuff is so far in the future that even if it is played completely straight, there is no saying it will affect Loki in the present, and not like it will actually come to pass in the comics, even if it was just 10 years off, due to how slowly time progresses in the books. If Loki does join the Avengers as has been teased in his book and also by Aaron himself in, well, The Avengers, then even Aaron won't be writing Loki as a bad guy in the present, even if he does go that way in King Thor.

And as I think about it some, another thing that feels weird to me about the ending is also that it almost seems like Malekith would make more sense there, despite the family connection with Thor and Loki, because of how War of the Realms went. It's almost feeling to me like the War of the Realms was actually originally intended to be headed by Loki, back waaaay at the beginning. But then stuff happened in Young Avengers and (to a lesser extent because Malekith had already been brought in at this point) Agent of Asgard etc. while Aaron wasn't using the character in Thor at all, so he brought in Malekith instead when it became clear that Loki would no longer really work, and found another role for Loki. But he still wanted the final battle at the end of time to be Thor and Loki, so just went with it and used the passage of time to handwave away the change in Loki's character.

[Snoop Dogg]

*sweats*

[rpmaluki]

If Aaron has really done a Thor vs Loki for nothing more than just because, i certainly hope Kibblesmith will retcon it somehow to leave Loki's future uncertain. I'm over evil Loki, i don't care how good of a writer Aaron is. I'm not saying Loki isn't capable of reverting back to his old setting, i simply hate it when writers cement that stuff in concrete, never to be changed, which is what this king Thor story is shaping up to be. It takes the fun out of Loki's stories and I'm here to enjoy Loki, not dread reading him.

[Karabaja]

Loki in #3 was amazing. Exactly how I want him to be. It's clear that he's the old Loki in a younger body and with a desire to turn a new leaf, while still keeping his edge. Also, while I'm not fond of this multiple stories concept, it was nicely executed, with a good dose of humor. A very nice ominous moment with Frösti and Drrf; I can't wait to see how things go with them, and exactly how their situation will bite Loki in the ass.
I didn't read King Thor yet. I'm a bit afraid to. I've decided to consider that timeline an alternate one and spare myself grief.