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  1. #1216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Aegis View Post
    I like the torches and pitchforks idea in the case of the return to evil Loki. I'll stand with you!
    I have my pitchfork and torch ready just in case

  2. #1217
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambadelta View Post
    Yeah, I think overall I do want Loki to become worthy of his own power, which was a big part of AOA. Loki has spent thousands of years trying to chase Thor and he's kind of falling back into that trap. I think that is one of the huge problems Loki has, is that he doesn't see true value in his own powers at times because to him they aren't on the level as Thor's, which is completely untrue but it's how Loki feels. I don't think I mind Loki getting Thor's hammer though and becoming Thor but only if it leads to Loki finally accepting his own worth and value in his own powers and self.

    I'm not sure Loki would take up Thor's title and call himself "Thor" though.
    Yeah, I think Loki has trouble seeing that he doesn't have to continually compare himself to Thor to have value to himself and others, and while he's trying to deal with it in a better way than previously.... he's still kinda doing that. Even when he's doing things that will make him more distinct from his brother and able to stand on his own, he's still framing it as escaping from Thor's shadow, instead of just focusing on trying to be the best him possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Aegis View Post
    If Loki were to wield Mjolnir, I don't see him being in the Thor role for long. It's not his style. Sure he might do so for a short bit, just out of fun and trying to show he could do so as well, but after a time, he'd get bored, because it's not him. I see him then finding new ways to use the hammer. His own way and style that others wouldn't expect. It's Loki after all. Wants to be liked by others and accept by others, but in the end, also wants to be himself and really accepted for who he is and what he can do. Which is why AoA was so good in helping to create a Loki that was finally accepting of himself as well as those that truly knew him accepted him as well.
    I think it only needs to last long enough to teach him the lessons he needs to learn, which is in part that he doesn't need to be like Thor or take his place to have value. But it would also have the benefit of showing people, both in universe and readers, that his character growth lately is genuine and not some trick or something.

  3. #1218
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    If he is Thor, then I wouldn't expect for it to be a good thing for him. I mean, it sort of would, but yeah, it would basically be something that would completely take over his personality in a very unnatural way and there's no telling that it would actually make him a better person. Thor has a lot of problems as a person and, unlike Loki, he isn't always aware of them. And let's not forget AXIS.

  4. #1219
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Welll... we don't know it would completely take over his personality. It depends on the story they want to tell. I mean, we're taking wild shots in the dark here. And with Jane it was more of a coercive influence, and the hammer may be different now, too, after being reforged. I suspect it would be more of a long term thing. While I think they might want to work with him losing himself to the role, I don't think they'd do it in a way where he was unrecognizable for more than an issue or two (like the Axis issues). He has to realize what's happening if he's going to fight it.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-20-2019 at 11:24 PM.

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  6. #1221
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    Welll... we don't know it would completely take over his personality. It depends on the story they want to tell. I mean, we're taking wild shots in the dark here. And with Jane it was more of a coercive influence, and the hammer may be different now, too, after being reforged. I suspect it would be more of a long term thing. While I think they might want to work with him losing himself to the role, I don't think they'd do it in a way where he was unrecognizable for more than an issue or two (like the Axis issues). He has to realize what's happening if he's going to fight it.
    In a way, Loki is in a better position than Jane. He's a fully formed character that can't be wholly assimilated into Thor's character like Jane was. I do see him rebelling against something like this and at least wanting to retain the core of what makes Loki. Loki's desires do not override his sense of self preservation. It's likely going to be be more of Loki having his cake and eating it too without losing himself, at least I hope so.

  7. #1222
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    Awww! I love this shirt lol

    As for Loki, I think the difference between Jane and Loki is that Loki is a god and Jand isn't. Jane was a sickly cancer patient who the hammer found easy to manipulate, while with Loki, it might have very little to do with the hammer and everything to do with some universal law.

  8. #1223
    Protector of Mortals Prof. Aegis's Avatar
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    This is fantastic!


    As for Loki and the hammer, yeah, I don't see it being a full transformation for him. I agree for an issue or two due to it's power, but Loki would bring it in line with who he is. And it would become more of an aspect of what it means to him and and how he could use it in his ways, unlike Jane who was trying to take over for Thor as the Avenger and hero. I see Loki wanting to fulfill that to a point, but also, wanting to show that he is himself and worthy as Loki.
    The Doors of Wisdom are never shut! - Benjamin Franklin

  9. #1224
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    hah, that costume is great.

    And with Jane, I think mainly it's that she chose to go along with it because she thought the role being filled was important, and as a plain ordinary human with no powers or combat experience, she needed the hammer's help and experience more than Thor or Loki would. Also, she kind of had a death wish, and it gave her the opportunity to go out with a bang, doing something important, so she was more willing to give herself over to the role. But even with her, it wasn't a total replacement of her personality, you had her sometimes saying something as Thor and then thinking 'whoa, that was weird' even in her own book right now, she's experiencing this, and it was more her sense of responsibility, which she had as herself, that kept her coming back to the role, even when she knew it could kill her or she might lose herself to the role.

    Loki, I think, would instead begin to question why this role needed to be filled in the first place, or at least why it could only be filled in a certain way, and would at least try to resist it's influence, and if that failed, likely give it back to Thor rather than risk losing himself. He can be a hero without it, he's a sorcerer, an Asgardian, he's one of the more powerful characters in the MU without that hammmer. For him, it's more of a symbol than a source of power, so losing it won't mean losing the ability to act on a large scale.

  10. #1225
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    Love the shirt and horns!

    Yeah, I don’t think Loki will be taken over by the hammer’s influence and power like Jane was nor do I think he will become “Thor”.

    Another thing in terms of Jane is that this whole being a superhero and having power was very new to her and it was about playing the role she thought she had to play, which was at the time the role of Thor; now she’s playing the role of Valkyrie. In a way these roles seem to be getting forced on Jane and she’s just kind of going with the flow a bit, letting the respective powers take over.

    But back onto Loki. I agree with the hammer being more of a symbol for Loki than an actual source of power. I think one of the biggest take away from Thor being “Unworthy” is that losing the hammer didn’t mean anything in the end because Thor’s worth came from his within and his powers were his own, not the hammers. In the end the hammer was more of a symbol for Thor, a sign that he saw worth in his own powers and own self; although I don’t know if it’s just me, but I feel like they have slightly retconned that. I don’t know I might be imaging it.

    I think it will be the same for Loki where he realizes that the hammer never made him worthy but rather himself and if he loses the hammer it doesn’t stop him from being worthy.

    And yeah, overall Loki doesn’t really need the hammer. He’s an extremely powerful magic user, a reality warper, extremely intelligent, a god, a frost giant and an Asgardian.

    On how long Loki will have Thor’s hammer. I don’t think this is meant to be a short-term thing though, going by Loki #1 since it’s shown Loki having the hammer far into the future and it was said in WOTR: OMEGA that he was to become worthy of the hammer any day now. So, going by that it seems that it’s not a short terms thing, at least for now.

    But as mentioned I don’t think him getting the hammer really means much in the long run but it helping Loki realize his own worth in his own powers.

  11. #1226
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    Now I really, really want to get that Loki and Apocalypse interaction. Especially since we've had a rivalry between Thor and Apocalypse in recent years.

    Actually, with all of the weird shit with the X-Men, Loki being Thor probably wouldn't make as big of waves as it kight have, which makes it a safer bet.

  12. #1227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambadelta View Post
    On how long Loki will have Thor’s hammer. I don’t think this is meant to be a short-term thing though, going by Loki #1 since it’s shown Loki having the hammer far into the future and it was said in WOTR: OMEGA that he was to become worthy of the hammer any day now. So, going by that it seems that it’s not a short terms thing, at least for now.

    But as mentioned I don’t think him getting the hammer really means much in the long run but it helping Loki realize his own worth in his own powers.
    If we go with the assumption that him getting the hammer is going to be a major plot point in his own book, or in Thor, or both, I think it will last at least 12 issues (in each, not all together). It's a story big enough to warrant that, especially since it will by necessity also affect Avengers. And as much as it may annoy some of the more traditionalist fans, there is quite a bit pointing to this happening, from visions of the future, the deal with Tony, the cover for issue 1, that Thor cover in the Pinterest, which i still think will most likely be used for a homage cover or splash page, but with Loki in Thor's place, and just the general role musical chairs situation set up in Thor and War of the Realms, which is leaving the 'Thor' spot open since he took on the role of All-father, but 'there must always be a Thor'. It's just that this time, Thor will presumably not become unworthy to make that happen, he'll have to choose between being All-Father and being... well, "Thor", the hero role. But yeah, this is big enough that i can't see it being 6 issues and done, it has to last longer than that. 12 issues/a year is actually me being conservative, that's the bare minimum I think it can last, particularly if it's being covered in 3 primary books, Thor, Loki, and Avengers. I suspect the Avengers will come into things a little later, because as the new run on Thor will be beginning, they will still be out in Space tracking down the new Starbrand, with Thor getting infected by the Brood and such. I presume that chronologically though, Avengers takes place a bit prior to the Loki and Thor stuff, and it may be that it's him being away from Asgard and Earth for a long time, he may realize that he really can't be All-Father AND do all the Avengers type stuff. Maybe it's that the new run on Thor begins with him absent from the throne, and they have to find him, and that's what triggers the situation once they track him down, maybe even still all Broodified. Kinda mirroring how Loki started out, really. Making Thor a giant hypocrite.
    Last edited by Raye; 09-21-2019 at 10:50 PM.

  13. #1228
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    Speaking of Loki being powerful, looking around there seems to be a misconception that he's actually quite weak. I don't get that narrative personally. Maybe it's because of the movies or because of the fact he usually gets beaten, mainly because of his self-defeating urge and PIS where good guys have to win. The latter is more in terms of how old comics was written rather than newer ones. I think Stan Lee even said once that who wins really depends on the writer. Loki though is one of the most powerful magic users, being able to stalemate GOM Doctor Strange. He has reality warping feats on the same level as doctor strange although nowhere near the level of Scarlet witch. He can often go toe to toe with Thor, Silver Surfer and other powerful characters. He can take hits from TWSATS, King Loki, who can more or less match king Thor and if I remember right can deal with being stepped on by a celestial without taking much damage. There has been inconsistencies with Loki really and maybe that's where the misconception comes from. I don't know I'm kind of ranting here because I generally don't get it.

  14. #1229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raye View Post
    I Maybe it's that the new run on Thor begins with him absent from the throne, and they have to find him, and that's what triggers the situation once they track him down, maybe even still all Broodified. Kinda mirroring how Loki started out, really. Making Thor a giant hypocrite.
    I wonder how that will go down with Loki Actually it will be interesting to see how Thor handles being king because while he's always had responsibility he basically had the freedom to pretty much do and go wherever he wants but with him being King of Asgard now he's got his limitations. He can't just go play hero whenever he wants on earth. I could see Thor really struggling with that, much like Loki but in different ways.

    I wonder how Thor will take to Loki being able to lift his hammer? Imo I would like to see Thor be a bit more worried than outright pissed since Thor might think that this might be too much responsibility which might make Loki pissed off at Thor for thinking that he can't handle all the responsibility that is being placed upon his shoulders and from what we have seen so far, Thor would be correct.

  15. #1230
    Astonishing Member Raye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lambadelta View Post
    Speaking of Loki being powerful, looking around there seems to be a misconception that he's actually quite weak. I don't get that narrative personally. Maybe it's because of the movies or because of the fact he usually gets beaten, mainly because of his self-defeating urge and PIS where good guys have to win. The latter is more in terms of how old comics was written rather than newer ones. I think Stan Lee even said once that who wins really depends on the writer. Loki though is one of the most powerful magic users, being able to stalemate GOM Doctor Strange. He has reality warping feats on the same level as doctor strange although nowhere near the level of Scarlet witch. He can often go toe to toe with Thor, Silver Surfer and other powerful characters. He can take hits from TWSATS, King Loki, who can more or less match king Thor and if I remember right can deal with being stepped on by a celestial without taking much damage. There has been inconsistencies with Loki really and maybe that's where the misconception comes from. I don't know I'm kind of ranting here because I generally don't get it.
    Yeah, I think some of it is that Loki is supposed to be (physically) weaker than Thor, and some people take that to just mean weak in general, even though 'weaker than Thor' still leaves a lot of room above your average mortal. It may also be some people equating sorcerers with being fragile glass cannons, because that is a common trope, but Loki isn't fragile. Plus, he's spent a long time as a villain which led to him getting bet up a lot.

    that's one thing i know will be handled well if Cates gets the Thor book though, he gets it, he knows Loki is supposed to be powerful, he wrote him as such in his Dr Strange run. But even there you had some fans interpreting it as if him stealing the title granted him powers, even though that wasn't the case, and it will be the same siuation with Mjolnir. I still think the story would be worth doing, but it will be some work to convince some fans that he can be powerful without the hammer.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lambadelta View Post
    I wonder how that will go down with Loki Actually it will be interesting to see how Thor handles being king because while he's always had responsibility he basically had the freedom to pretty much do and go wherever he wants but with him being King of Asgard now he's got his limitations. He can't just go play hero whenever he wants on earth. I could see Thor really struggling with that, much like Loki but in different ways.

    I wonder how Thor will take to Loki being able to lift his hammer? Imo I would like to see Thor be a bit more worried than outright pissed since Thor might think that this might be too much responsibility which might make Loki pissed off at Thor for thinking that he can't handle all the responsibility that is being placed upon his shoulders and from what we have seen so far, Thor would be correct.
    I don't think Thor would be mad, as long as it wasn't a case where Loki came and stole it somehow. I think he'd be surprised, I think he wants the best for Loki but I also don't think he fully believes Loki is capable of being who he hopes he can be.

    As for the responsibility I think Loki can handle it (he did fine as the Sorcerer Supreme, tricking his way into the title aside) but it will take an adjustment period. But not like that's unusual, it's not like Thor didn't still have a lot to learn when he first was able to lift the hammer, I think learning on the job is PART of the role.

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