Mary Jane Watson/Parker Appreciation 2019

[Revolutionary_Jack]

MJ made a appearance in the history of the marvel universe 4. in a full page of the Clone Saga, no reference to her pregnancy, Cyclops and Jean wedding was shown, i was hoping the Peter Mj wedding gets a mention who knows, it be cool I doubt it, if the OMD deal gets mentioned. lol

Mark Waid is an anti-marriage guy so naturally his bias shows. I was dreading him writing this History of the Marvel Universe for that reason because of stuff that he leaves out. It's like expecting a Confederate to write a true history of the Civil War.

He's one of those guys who believes that only the character's core matters (which amounts to 'I and I alone know the character's core and those who say otherwise are just fans of one version who cling on to it, totally different from how I cling to a version of a character and arbitrarily decide that's the core').

Anyway, if you want an accurate history of the Marvel Universe, something that's fun and not a simple recap wiki dressed up with art that's better than the text deserves...I recommend Cosmic Ghost Rider's History of the Marvel Universe.

[Frontier]

Yeah in the comics she hardly wears red a lot. The closest shade is that hot pink outfit she wore in the Wedding Annual when Peter takes her to the Empire State Building for the first time (which became their spot).

She usually wears a lot of orange beige and purple...most famous is that purple outfit she wore in the epilogue of The Night Gwen Stacy Died. That actually inspired Ultimate MJ who tended to wear a lot of purple.

Don't forget about MJ's purple pants in the 90's cartoon .

I'm not sure if it's specifically that he prefers Peter with Gwen, it's just that both the AU in his Spectacular run and Life Story are following the basics of 616, even with the changes how some **** happens, so Peter meets and falls in love with Gwen, in Life Story she eventually dies, but the AU in Spectacular gave no reason for her to die since Norman stopped being a super villain (As in, not wearing costumes and being a direct threat).

Of course, the AU in Spectacular could've killed her off-screen, but if that happened then it wouldn't work, because Peter from that universe quit being Spidey to protect his loved ones, if Gwen was killed anyways, then he stopped for nothing, and if he chose to not be Spidey again even after that, then he would be an even bigger coward since he didn't go back even after seeing that people around him can die regardless of him being a hero or not.

So yeah, that doesn't prove that he doesn't prefer Peter with Gwen, it's just that with Life Story being kinda "616 but in real time" and with the AU in Spectacular being "616 but Peter gives up before college", he just couldn't not use Gwen, and since Gwen is "the first love of his life", there's no way for him to not marry her without her dying, not in 616-based universes that is.

Hm... Thinking of it, his Spectacular run has a plot hole in that timeline anyways, since 616 Peter arrives in that universe after ASM#10, since they deal with Norman's return a bit after arriving, which happened in ASM#23, and they leave after ASM#24, I mention all of this because in Master Planner trilogy, May got sick because of Peter's radioactive blood, and he needed ISO-36 to cure her, with that alternate Peter quitting so soon, it means Master Planner's events may have happened without her being cured, since Peter donated his radioactive blood in ASM#10, and Peter in that story quickly realized that it was his radioactive blood that made her sick, and it was thanks to his efforts she was saved, so it's quite possible she died off-screen because Peter did nothing... And bleak future or not, if that really happened, then this Peter is a piece of **** for letting his fears stop him from saving Aunt May, specially since he felt responsible.

Or maybe I'm just overthinking all of this and Zdarsky just didn't consider it, but it'd be odd in such case, since that universe being so similar to 616 is a plot point, it's used by everyone to get info on the Vedomi, and used by Teresa to confirm if she's a Parker or not, so ASM#10 would need to have happened too...

Also possible 616 Peter just cured her earlier on to save his younger counterpart-self the stress, he did make changes to try to make young! Peter's life easier after all, but that's a headcanon, a likely one though.

I guess it makes more sense if we work under the assumption Peter would've married Gwen if her death hadn't happened...although I don't think everyone would subscribe to that.

[Lukmendes]

I guess it makes more sense if we work under the assumption Peter would've married Gwen if her death hadn't happened...although I don't think everyone would subscribe to that.

Thing is that, there just isn't anything that could stop it from happening, Gwen's hatred of Spidey only started because of her father's death, before that she was shown to either be indifferent or maybe even supportive of him, so the only problem that could stop their marriage from happening never became a problem to begin with, and the relationship never showed anything else for it to not work.

Of course, we could have typical marriage thing of people only really getting to know each other after marriage and, not liking that, but at this point it's getting too convoluted for a background story of some AU lol.

Oh well, Adjectiveless Spider-Man#2 is out, any mention of the MJ of that world there? Or is the issue even worth picking up? 'Cause that issue#1 failed to make me want to waste my time lol.

[Huntsman Spider]

Thing is that, there just isn't anything that could stop it from happening, Gwen's hatred of Spidey only started because of her father's death, before that she was shown to either be indifferent or maybe even supportive of him, so the only problem that could stop their marriage from happening never became a problem to begin with, and the relationship never showed anything else for it to not work.

Of course, we could have typical marriage thing of people only really getting to know each other after marriage and, not liking that, but at this point it's getting too convoluted for a background story of some AU lol.

Oh well, Adjectiveless Spider-Man#2 is out, any mention of the MJ of that world there? Or is the issue even worth picking up? 'Cause that issue#1 failed to make me want to waste my time lol.

Other than her death being mentioned as the reason Peter quit being Spider-Man and disassociated himself from his family, Ben II hating his dad's guts even more after finding out Peter was Spider-Man and wondering if his mother MJ knew about it before she died . . . she wasn't mentioned that much, really.

[Frontier]

Thing is that, there just isn't anything that could stop it from happening, Gwen's hatred of Spidey only started because of her father's death, before that she was shown to either be indifferent or maybe even supportive of him, so the only problem that could stop their marriage from happening never became a problem to begin with, and the relationship never showed anything else for it to not work.

Gwen's emotional problems and dependency issues?

[Lukmendes]

Other than her death being mentioned as the reason Peter quit being Spider-Man and disassociated himself from his family, Ben II hating his dad's guts even more after finding out Peter was Spider-Man and wondering if his mother MJ knew about it before she died . . . she wasn't mentioned that much, really.

So the usual stuff of fridged characters, just being mentioned to develop someone else, figures lol.

I get the feeling the characters will start talking about MJ like she was perfect, she'd treated like Gwen 2.0 in that case lol.

Gwen's emotional problems and dependency issues?

Didn't those start only because of her father's death?

Like, the closest thing I remember of dependency before his death is her being worried about Peter so much, but considering that he keeps returning from some adventure being injured, or disapearing for a long time, or disapearing for a long time and returning with injures, and Peter also refusing to say what the hell he was doing, it's not surprising that she just has so much worry... Maybe you can make the point that her only being worried shows this dependency, but the comic acts like her not being really suspicious of him was a sign that she really trusted him, not that she has issues, and considering that everyone else who trusts someone a lot in that era weren't that different in attitude, yeah, Gwen wasn't alone in this, I guess...

So yeah, basically it just seems that, ironically enough, Peter not being Spidey was just better for the relationship to work in that universe, since it avoids the issues that Lee/Romita era showed, ironic because Gwen was annoyed at Peter not trying to do the right thing lol.

[Jman27]

I guess it makes more sense if we work under the assumption Peter would've married Gwen if her death hadn't happened...although I don't think everyone would subscribe to that.

I always thought that was the general consensus if Gwen didn't die it would've been him and Gwen. Does that make Mj the most successful rebound in comics?

[Lukmendes]

I always thought that was the general consensus if Gwen didn't die it would've been him and Gwen. Does that make Mj the most successful rebound in comics?

Depends, should we consider Lois a rebound to Lana too?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I always thought that was the general consensus if Gwen didn't die it would've been him and Gwen. Does that make Mj the most successful rebound in comics?

The actual context casts a different light. The truth is Gwen Stacy was fairly unpopular among readers. Stan Lee, and Romita Sr. have said this. Conway has said this. Some of the letters published in ASM in that time, confirm this. Readers kept pestering Lee and Romita Sr. as to why they were wasting their time with Gwen when MJ was the one who was interesting.

And if you look at Gwen's history, it makes sense. When originally introduced by Ditko she had a fairly harsh personality and was obviously not set-up to be "endgame"...if anything Mary Jane (whose first mention in ASM#15 is May telling Peter she would make a great wife) was the one who was established as that, even when she never made an appearance. Then after MJ showed up, Romita Sr. modeled Gwen to look like MJ (he admitted as much) and readers saw through this clearly. From one angle, MJ is the rebound...from another angle, Gwen was the fake romantic interest intended to delay the actual couple from getting together too early. Because Lee-Ditko set up Peter and Mary Jane as the main couple...the buildup was that this girl Peter's Aunt believed was the one, and which Peter kept putting off because he didn't think his Aunt could find anyone cool, was obviously going to be the girl he would end up with.

In terms of publication...fact is Gerry Conway was writing the books and he made it clear recently that had there been no green light to kill a major character and had he not nominated Gwen...then he would have broken Peter and Gwen up, and have Peter date MJ anyway. So in no sense is it set in stone, that if Gwen didn't die, it would be Peter and Gwen. It's just that when Gwen died, some people assumed that was the case but if you read The Night Gwen Stacy Died, then the actual story is mostly setting Mary Jane as the one for Peter, as the epilogue makes clear.

So on one hand, MJ is the rebound...on the other hand she was the girl introduced as the one from the start, and Gwen was the sharp left turn that was unpopular with fans...

[Jman27]

Depends, should we consider Lois a rebound to Lana too?

Im unsure of supes dating history except from my time in Smallville and the constant reboots Dc does. I thought Lana in the comics was like his best friend and didnt he date that mermaid after her anyway?

[Jman27]

The actual context casts a different light. The truth is Gwen Stacy was fairly unpopular among readers. Stan Lee, and Romita Sr. have said this. Conway has said this. Some of the letters published in ASM in that time, confirm this. Readers kept pestering Lee and Romita Sr. as to why they were wasting their time with Gwen when MJ was the one who was interesting.

And if you look at Gwen's history, it makes sense. When originally introduced by Ditko she had a fairly harsh personality and was obviously not set-up to be "endgame"...if anything Mary Jane (whose first mention in ASM#15 is May telling Peter she would make a great wife) was the one who was established as that, even when she never made an appearance. Then after MJ showed up, Romita Sr. modeled Gwen to look like MJ (he admitted as much) and readers saw through this clearly. From one angle, MJ is the rebound...from another angle, Gwen was the fake romantic interest intended to delay the actual couple from getting together too early. Because Lee-Ditko set up Peter and Mary Jane as the main couple...the buildup was that this girl Peter's Aunt believed was the one, and which Peter kept putting off because he didn't think his Aunt could find anyone cool, was obviously going to be the girl he would end up with.

In terms of publication...fact is Gerry Conway was writing the books and he made it clear recently that had there been no green light to kill a major character and had he not nominated Gwen...then he would have broken Peter and Gwen up, and have Peter date MJ anyway. So in no sense is it set in stone, that if Gwen didn't die, it would be Peter and Gwen. It's just that when Gwen died, some people assumed that was the case but if you read The Night Gwen Stacy Died, then the actual story is mostly setting Mary Jane as the one for Peter, as the epilogue makes clear.

So on one hand, MJ is the rebound...on the other hand she was the girl introduced as the one from the start, and Gwen was the sharp left turn that was unpopular with fans...

So thats probably why they try to give Gwen meaning post-death since she wasn't necessary pre-death then

[Lukmendes]

Im unsure of supes dating history except from my time in Smallville and the constant reboots Dc does. I thought Lana in the comics was like his best friend and didnt he date that mermaid after her anyway?

Well, in Earth 2 there was no Lana, in Earth 1's pre-crisis/silver age there was Lana and Lori, and I think Lana and Clark were dating, post crisis has Lana and Clark dating in Smallville, but by the time Supes is on Metropolis, he already moved on, and she may have moved on (Depends on the writer kind of thing).

So generally, if they bother to show Smallville, there was Lana and they dated for a while.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Im unsure of supes dating history except from my time in Smallville and the constant reboots Dc does. I thought Lana in the comics was like his best friend and didnt he date that mermaid after her anyway?

In publ. history Lois Lane came first. But when Superboy was published with a teenage Clark in Smallville. They needed a girlfriend but since it was canon that Clark met Lois in Metropolis as an adult (and possibly because it was impossible to imagine someone as urban as Lois as a Kansasite), they introduced Lana Lang as basically "Lois but in Kansas". So Lana was never a real rival to Lois, she was basically a clone of the original.

The entire Lana-Clark-Lois rivalry was fake. In that level it's comparable to Peter/MJ/Gwen because Gwen too was remodeled to resemble MJ and was gradually someone who came to acquire the role that was originally intended for MJ, but which was executed so poorly that fans saw right through it and rejected it.

So thats probably why they try to give Gwen meaning post-death since she wasn't necessary pre-death then

Well yeah. The problem with the meaning she has post-death is some people take it far. Like some people act that Gwen was Peter's true love that other girls can't measure up when the epilogue makes it clear otherwise. They basically create a version of Gwen that didn't exist.

The truth is if Gwen found out Peter's identity she would have rejected him and run away from him. Nothing would come of it.

[Lukmendes]

The actual context casts a different light. The truth is Gwen Stacy was fairly unpopular among readers. Stan Lee, and Romita Sr. have said this. Conway has said this. Some of the letters published in ASM in that time, confirm this. Readers kept pestering Lee and Romita Sr. as to why they were wasting their time with Gwen when MJ was the one who was interesting.

And if you look at Gwen's history, it makes sense. When originally introduced by Ditko she had a fairly harsh personality and was obviously not set-up to be "endgame"...if anything Mary Jane (whose first mention in ASM#15 is May telling Peter she would make a great wife) was the one who was established as that, even when she never made an appearance. Then after MJ showed up, Romita Sr. modeled Gwen to look like MJ (he admitted as much) and readers saw through this clearly. From one angle, MJ is the rebound...from another angle, Gwen was the fake romantic interest intended to delay the actual couple from getting together too early. Because Lee-Ditko set up Peter and Mary Jane as the main couple...the buildup was that this girl Peter's Aunt believed was the one, and which Peter kept putting off because he didn't think his Aunt could find anyone cool, was obviously going to be the girl he would end up with.

In terms of publication...fact is Gerry Conway was writing the books and he made it clear recently that had there been no green light to kill a major character and had he not nominated Gwen...then he would have broken Peter and Gwen up, and have Peter date MJ anyway. So in no sense is it set in stone, that if Gwen didn't die, it would be Peter and Gwen. It's just that when Gwen died, some people assumed that was the case but if you read The Night Gwen Stacy Died, then the actual story is mostly setting Mary Jane as the one for Peter, as the epilogue makes clear.

So on one hand, MJ is the rebound...on the other hand she was the girl introduced as the one from the start, and Gwen was the sharp left turn that was unpopular with fans...

Wouldn't say Gwen was a "fake romantic interest", considering that Peter falls for her, and eventually chooses her over MJ, they date for a while, and then we have MJ's infamous bad haircut... She was basically just the original Carlie, inconsistent personality and writers ruining other love interests to make her look better, wasn't hard to see that favoritism, MJ back then she was just a gag of "When the **** will she show up?", then part of a love triangle, and once that was done, wasn't meant to be much more than a recurring character, she's just someone who became the main love interest, regardless of the original intent, but both in-universe and out she's a rebound.

[Starrius]

Im unsure of supes dating history except from my time in Smallville and the constant reboots Dc does. I thought Lana in the comics was like his best friend and didnt he date that mermaid after her anyway?

yeah...you read your Superman comics
Lori Lemaris
they met in college
she disguised herself as paralyzed woman in wheelchair, but she was really a mermad.