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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The problem with Spec!MJ is that she was relatively minor in the grand scheme of that series. People can talk about her potential, but the bottom line is we never actually saw it.
    I do feel like this is one of the problems with the series being cut short; they tended to build the foundation of characters and work their way up. Even then what the character does has to affect Peter/Spider-Man down the line in some way to be seen.

    With Mary Jane she had GREAT moments in her first appearance (i.e. putting Sally Avril in her place). They even expanded on MJ a bit by showing her interest in theater/acting; and even had nods to comics Gwen copying MJ's look to be more appealing. I can see how she could seem minor in the grand scheme of Peter's life in the show, as it seemed that she was on the back burner for Gwen and Liz.

    I will say I do wonder where they planned to go with her. As while the show had MJ trying to get Peter and Gwen together (Liz even calls her out for it), they did establish that she was lonely at the end of the same episode, with Peter embracing his girlfriend, with Mary Jane off to the side. With Harry emotionally manipulating Gwen, and Liz off of the table I'm curious if Peter and MJ's relationship would have gotten more action. That said...from what we have of Mary Jane adaptation wise, I think Spectacular was the only one to attempt the "fun loving party girl" part of her. A lot of the time we see her past that stage in life.

  2. #632
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I will say I do wonder where they planned to go with her. As while the show had MJ trying to get Peter and Gwen together (Liz even calls her out for it), they did establish that she was lonely at the end of the same episode, with Peter embracing his girlfriend, with Mary Jane off to the side. With Harry emotionally manipulating Gwen, and Liz off of the table I'm curious if Peter and MJ's relationship would have gotten more action. That said...from what we have of Mary Jane adaptation wise, I think Spectacular was the only one to attempt the "fun loving party girl" part of her. A lot of the time we see her past that stage in life.
    It was kind of still part of her personality in the 90's cartoon, from what I remember.

  3. #633
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It managed the difficult feat of making Peter and Liz sympathetic and not letting Peter off the hook, which was a big step up from say, Peter gaslighting Deb Whitman so Mantlo can move to the Peter/Felicia romance stat.
    I will say that it would have been TOO EASY to make Liz a rhymes with "rich", and a shrew who didn't deserve Peter, but I love the fact that they didn't...it made the consequence feel very real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It was kind of still part of her personality in the 90's cartoon, from what I remember.
    You know...I'm going to have to go back and re-watch all of Mary Jane's interactions on that cartoon. I thought they kind of made her a bit of a composite character of Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy. I DO remember MJ's aunt Anna being pretty much a super villain in that cartoon however.

  4. #634
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    You know...I'm going to have to go back and re-watch all of Mary Jane's interactions on that cartoon. I thought they kind of made her a bit of a composite character of Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy. I DO remember MJ's aunt Anna being pretty much a super villain in that cartoon however.
    Man, Aunt Anna was awful on that show. It was a little jarring finding out she was a kindly old lady in the comics .

  5. #635
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    I will say that it would have been TOO EASY to make Liz a rhymes with "rich", and a shrew who didn't deserve Peter, but I love the fact that they didn't...it made the consequence feel very real.



    You know...I'm going to have to go back and re-watch all of Mary Jane's interactions on that cartoon. I thought they kind of made her a bit of a composite character of Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy. I DO remember MJ's aunt Anna being pretty much a super villain in that cartoon however.
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Man, Aunt Anna was awful on that show. It was a little jarring finding out she was a kindly old lady in the comics .
    I don't even know why or how Aunt May could tolerate her as much as she did. At least in "The Return of Hydro-Man, Part 1," Peter finally had enough of her crap.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #636
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Honestly, I thought the way they wrote Peter and Gwen in Spectacular, even though he's supposed to get together with MJ by endgame, and Spectacular MJ is still really great, I was always on the Gwen side to end up with him.

    They had the best chemistry, I loved how you could tell how deeply they really cared for each other, and I liked how it was their own insecurities/teenage high school drama and misunderstandings that what pushed them so long to actually come clean with each other.

    I feel like the relationship between them was done so well, that Gwen dying is the only way I could see getting together with MJ work. At least while not knowing what exactly their plans were, I have a hard time seeing a version where Gwen lives and Peter moves on to MJ with no second thoughts. If Season 3 happened, I could see them having Peter and MJ becoming closer, since everyone else would want nothing to do with him, and maybe we start to see her own feelings for him emerge, but still end up trying to support Peter and Gwen coming together like she had been in the first 2 seasons.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen: Ghost Spider, Sonic The Hedgehog, Absolute Carnage, Friendly Neighbourhood Spider-Man, Gwenpool Strikes Back, Runaways, The White Trees

  7. #637
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Honestly, I thought the way they wrote Peter and Gwen in Spectacular, even though he's supposed to get together with MJ by endgame, and Spectacular MJ is still really great, I was always on the Gwen side to end up with him.

    They had the best chemistry, I loved how you could tell how deeply they really cared for each other, and I liked how it was their own insecurities/teenage high school drama and misunderstandings that what pushed them so long to actually come clean with each other.

    I feel like the relationship between them was done so well, that Gwen dying is the only way I could see getting together with MJ work. At least while not knowing what exactly their plans were, I have a hard time seeing a version where Gwen lives and Peter moves on to MJ with no second thoughts. If Season 3 happened, I could see them having Peter and MJ becoming closer, since everyone else would want nothing to do with him, and maybe we start to see her own feelings for him emerge, but still end up trying to support Peter and Gwen coming together like she had been in the first 2 seasons.
    I think the Peter and Gwen relationship definitely benefited from being one of the major focuses of the series' two seasons.

    Had they eventually done the same for Peter and MJ, which I imagine was the plan, I think it probably would have become as memorable as the Peter and Gwen relationship.

    Knowing Weisman, he probably had it all worked out in his head .

  8. #638
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think the Peter and Gwen relationship definitely benefited from being one of the major focuses of the series' two seasons.

    Had they eventually done the same for Peter and MJ, which I imagine was the plan, I think it probably would have become as memorable as the Peter and Gwen relationship.

    Knowing Weisman, he probably had it all worked out in his head .
    I was just going through the motions while watching Peter/Gwen.
    I was always waiting for Peter/Mary Jane relationship


    I am totally a Peter/Mary Jane fan
    I created a thread about Dick Grayson/Nightwing and Koriand'r/Starfire.
    It is to acknowledge and honor their iconic and popular relationship.
    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/teen-...rfire-1975639/

    I created a fan page about Peter Parker/Spider-Man and Mary Jane Watson.
    This page is for all the Spider-Marriage fans.
    http://www.facebook.com/SpiderManMaryJane/

  9. #639
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Honestly, I thought the way they wrote Peter and Gwen in Spectacular, even though he's supposed to get together with MJ by endgame, and Spectacular MJ is still really great, I was always on the Gwen side to end up with him.

    They had the best chemistry, I loved how you could tell how deeply they really cared for each other, and I liked how it was their own insecurities/teenage high school drama and misunderstandings that what pushed them so long to actually come clean with each other.
    Spectacular Gwen is heavily inspired by Ultimate MJ, being childhood friends and having a crush on Peter since high school and so on. So it's kind of weird that Spectacular Peter has a love triangle with two versions of the same character. Spec!Gwen came off as the Lana to MJ's Lois. I mean that awful and (now forever tainted) Smallville show had that issue where the early seasons spent so much time with those girls that when Lois arrived in later seasons, they couldn't establish her as endgame.

    Weisman's approach of Gwen and Peter as "the could-have-been-if-they-had-good-timing" relationship, which so many of us have experienced at that age feels right I think. It's also true like in Lee-Ditko Spider-Man, Peter/Liz Allan have that. One of my favorite moments there is that scene in ASM#28 when they graduate, and Liz and Peter talk, and Liz admits having a crush on Peter and how sad it was that she never said it when it counted and it was too late. And it's also the right substitution because Weisman said that he never intended to kill Gwen, and I agree with that. The way Spectacular ends, with a Goblin stealing Gwen from Peter or gaslighting Gwen to be in a dead-end relationship, feels right.

    At least while not knowing what exactly their plans were, I have a hard time seeing a version where Gwen lives and Peter moves on to MJ with no second thoughts. If Season 3 happened, I could see them having Peter and MJ becoming closer, since everyone else would want nothing to do with him, and maybe we start to see her own feelings for him emerge, but still end up trying to support Peter and Gwen coming together like she had been in the first 2 seasons.
    In Season 1, they kissed at the end, but in Season 2, Peter and Gwen drift apart and he spends most of his time with Liz and so on. So the story is about them being apart and not belonging together.

    I am sure that Weisman would have made it work. As it stands, I think Spectacular's 2 seasons is pretty satisfying as a snapshot of Peter's high school era. I mean it's faithful in that Peter ends up alone just like in L-D where Peter and Betty break up and so on. MJ is hinted as being in his future which was also the case of L-D. So to me it feels right.

    Weisman's problem in general is that he didn't learn the lesson that Bruce Timm did. Bruce Timm said that when Batman Beyond got cancelled mid-way without them having time to come up for a finale, he made it so every season he worked on after that was done so it could be a finale for the series. So it wrapped loose ends and so on. Weisman hasn't cottoned to that.

  10. #640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Spectacular Gwen is heavily inspired by Ultimate MJ, being childhood friends and having a crush on Peter since high school and so on. So it's kind of weird that Spectacular Peter has a love triangle with two versions of the same character. Spec!Gwen came off as the Lana to MJ's Lois. I mean that awful and (now forever tainted) Smallville show had that issue where the early seasons spent so much time with those girls that when Lois arrived in later seasons, they couldn't establish her as endgame.

    Weisman's approach of Gwen and Peter as "the could-have-been-if-they-had-good-timing" relationship, which so many of us have experienced at that age feels right I think. It's also true like in Lee-Ditko Spider-Man, Peter/Liz Allan have that. One of my favorite moments there is that scene in ASM#28 when they graduate, and Liz and Peter talk, and Liz admits having a crush on Peter and how sad it was that she never said it when it counted and it was too late. And it's also the right substitution because Weisman said that he never intended to kill Gwen, and I agree with that. The way Spectacular ends, with a Goblin stealing Gwen from Peter or gaslighting Gwen to be in a dead-end relationship, feels right.



    In Season 1, they kissed at the end, but in Season 2, Peter and Gwen drift apart and he spends most of his time with Liz and so on. So the story is about them being apart and not belonging together.

    I am sure that Weisman would have made it work. As it stands, I think Spectacular's 2 seasons is pretty satisfying as a snapshot of Peter's high school era. I mean it's faithful in that Peter ends up alone just like in L-D where Peter and Betty break up and so on. MJ is hinted as being in his future which was also the case of L-D. So to me it feels right.

    Weisman's problem in general is that he didn't learn the lesson that Bruce Timm did. Bruce Timm said that when Batman Beyond got cancelled mid-way without them having time to come up for a finale, he made it so every season he worked on after that was done so it could be a finale for the series. So it wrapped loose ends and so on. Weisman hasn't cottoned to that.

    I'd disagree with your final statement on the basis that most series that got cancelled under him have sold well, been popular and shouldnt realistically have been cancelled but due to executive meddling and shit you just cant see they were cancelled. When your bosses repeatedly tell you "You've git time dont worry" only for them to kick the door in a few days later its going to throw you off.

  11. #641
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    I'd disagree with your final statement on the basis that most series that got cancelled under him have sold well, been popular and shouldnt realistically have been cancelled but due to executive meddling and shit you just cant see they were cancelled. When your bosses repeatedly tell you "You've git time dont worry" only for them to kick the door in a few days later its going to throw you off.
    I'd say you should have experience at that point to note that executives and bosses say one thing and mean something else and cover your bases. Timm learned that after all.

    In Weisman's case, Spectacular got cancelled because of the Disney-Marvel buyout which led to a renegotiation with Sony about TV rights. So that was stuff nobody really foresaw or had control over at that time. Sony had no say or control in Disney buying Marvel.

  12. #642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistah K88 View Post
    You know...I'm going to have to go back and re-watch all of Mary Jane's interactions on that cartoon. I thought they kind of made her a bit of a composite character of Mary Jane and Gwen Stacy.
    Oh, they definitely did. MJ had Gwen's role in an adaptation of The Night Gwen Stacy Died, only she was tossed into a portal (probably sent to an AU - Peter never found her but was about to look for her when the show ended) instead of dying. Peter later married a clone MJ thinking she was the original (it was when this was revealed that he resolved to find the real MJ). The Miles Warren connection is another Gwen plot.

    However, some aspects of Gwen were combined with Black Cat instead (she was first introduced as a blonde socialite).

  13. #643
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    According to John Semper, Felicia Hardy was supposed to be the Gwen figure. That's why Felicia there is a socialite and so on. Semper said that Stan Lee who was an executive producer wanted Mary Jane to be the only love interest and main heroine and didn't want any melodrama or other relationships. Lee was quite insistent on that and Semper had to talk him around.

    The Fox cartoon is generally not a favorite of mine. Mostly because, as in the case of the Fox X-Men, I just can't get over the garish visual style there and overall weak character models and designs. I accept that for people who grew up with it, it's something special but I never got into it. Spectacular Spider-Man looks better because it had muted colors, more stylized visuals and backgrounds, a right mix of realism and cartoon-y exaggeration. That balance never appeared in the Fox Cartoon. Yeah, stuff like making Anna Watson into a typical in-law is just pure character assassination. It's more sexist than the comics. And again, I don't know how people can complain about Spectacular ending prematurely next to the insults to patience that the Fox cartoon did at the end, which according to Semper is his intended ending and not a studio forced thing, i.e. the show being a cliffhanger ending was his idea.

    In general Spider-Man cartoons end on cliffhangers : Fox, MTV, Weisman. I actually do like the MTV Spider-Man which is basically an adult Spider-Man and a weird mish-mash of Raimi, 616, Ultimate but more its own thing and it had Neil Patrick Harris as Peter, excellent choice. And the MTV cartoon did deal poignantly with Peter/MJ in the last episode or so. It's really flawed and I'd say it should be judged with doing very little with the really rare opportunity it was given but still interesting.

    Anyway, my favorite versions of MJ are
    1) Kirsten Dunst in Spider-Man 1
    2) Zoe Kravitz in ITSV
    3) Zendaya in the MCU movies.
    4) Laura Bailey in Spider-Man PS4.
    5) Vanessa Marshall in Spectacular Spider-Man.

    I'll also add MJ in the game Spider-Man Web of Shadows where she's a shotgun wielding symbiote zombie hunting type.

  14. #644
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    According to John Semper, Felicia Hardy was supposed to be the Gwen figure. That's why Felicia there is a socialite and so on. Semper said that Stan Lee who was an executive producer wanted Mary Jane to be the only love interest and main heroine and didn't want any melodrama or other relationships. Lee was quite insistent on that and Semper had to talk him around.

    The Fox cartoon is generally not a favorite of mine. Mostly because, as in the case of the Fox X-Men, I just can't get over the garish visual style there and overall weak character models and designs. I accept that for people who grew up with it, it's something special but I never got into it. Spectacular Spider-Man looks better because it had muted colors, more stylized visuals and backgrounds, a right mix of realism and cartoon-y exaggeration. That balance never appeared in the Fox Cartoon. Yeah, stuff like making Anna Watson into a typical in-law is just pure character assassination. It's more sexist than the comics. And again, I don't know how people can complain about Spectacular ending prematurely next to the insults to patience that the Fox cartoon did at the end, which according to Semper is his intended ending and not a studio forced thing, i.e. the show being a cliffhanger ending was his idea.

    In general Spider-Man cartoons end on cliffhangers : Fox, MTV, Weisman. I actually do like the MTV Spider-Man which is basically an adult Spider-Man and a weird mish-mash of Raimi, 616, Ultimate but more its own thing and it had Neil Patrick Harris as Peter, excellent choice. And the MTV cartoon did deal poignantly with Peter/MJ in the last episode or so. It's really flawed and I'd say it should be judged with doing very little with the really rare opportunity it was given but still interesting.

    Anyway, my favorite versions of MJ are
    1) Kirsten Dunst in Spider-Man 1
    2) Zoe Kravitz in ITSV
    3) Zendaya in the MCU movies.
    4) Laura Bailey in Spider-Man PS4.
    5) Vanessa Marshall in Spectacular Spider-Man.

    I'll also add MJ in the game Spider-Man Web of Shadows where she's a shotgun wielding symbiote zombie hunting type.
    Web of Shadows MJ was fun and maybe one of the best parts of that game besides how it took advantage of Spider-Man's agility and wall-crawling ability in rather unique ways compared to previous Spider-Man games. Maybe paraphrasing: "You know something? [cocks shotgun with one hand, as the other is in a cast] MJ can take care of herself!"
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  15. #645
    Keeper of the Torch Ravin' Ray's Avatar
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    Wow, October is turning out to be "Mary Jane variant covers month"! I count 24 doing a search. Too many for one post.

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