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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Bendis literally used MJ because Slott was going to send her to comic book limbo. (Too bad he never actually did much with her, but it's still better than comic book limbo.)
    I mean the only way Bendis could have done much with her in an Iron Man story is to have her date Tony...which he absolutely did not want to do. I mean it wouldn't make sense from a character perspective, like why would a character, as per Slott, who left Peter and Spider-Man because she didn't want to be part of his superhero life...date an even more destructive drama-magnet who is also a proven alcoholic (like her father). I mean it wasn't too believable that she would work for Stark and Bendis had to destroy the whole club-owner status-quo for good to force her in a desperate 'Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in' moment. And Bendis didn't have a lot of interest in Tony Stark either, so he had Riri come in-between, and then the entire Stark Industries is run by women, with Amanda Armstrong and so on. So I think he didn't do too badly. Weirdly in that whole Regent story arc, Slott tries to hype and ship Tony/MJ more than Bendis did.

    This is just my assumption and wish-fulfillment, but I think Bendis having MJ work as a corporate officer and so on, was a shot against the bow at Slott's business Peter storylines. He's basically showing everyone a story arc of Slott that would totally have worked and worked better with a married Peter. And of course by having MJ work and move up the corporate ladder at the same time as Peter's, he's basically ensuring that she remains Peter's equal, his match, and the whole Parallel Lives character development motif that's a big part of the character since Conway's story. I mean you could easily have seen MJ work Parker Industries and do the whole socialite and PR thing for Peter, and all the stuff that could have brought to their relationship and so on. Nick Spencer even refers to it in Issue #10 where MJ notes that she was briefly a part of Peter's wheelhouse but now they are back to the old setup an so on.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    There's a moment in the Ant-Man And The Wasp mini where they both briefly travel through a universe consisting of all the alternate Gwen and MJ cover characters, so it's canon and I would so love a mini with all of them together!
    Yeah, that one had the armor ones and the symbiote covers existing there too.

  3. #63
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    There's a moment in the Ant-Man And The Wasp mini where they both briefly travel through a universe consisting of all the alternate Gwen and MJ cover characters, so it's canon and I would so love a mini with all of them together!
    Thinking this over as I wrote in the past I came up with a few ideas for stories for each Gwen then for MJs during these fun covers debut. Since then Earth-65 Gwen has met with 617 Gwen who we discover bonded with a symobite and partnership and is traveling the Multiverse to study it and indicated she has a team while trying to avoid 'events' yet nudge some things. That 617 Gwen wasn't happy when some Watchers who believed certain things 'had to be' while 617 Gwen was angry they wanted to hold the possibilities of the Multiverse back.

    With Earth-65 Gwen being still a multiverse traveler due to the events of Spider-Getton, a common mindset that Gwens feel they bring death reading the preview pages of the upcoming Ghost Spider #4 with Gwen believing 'Death loves her' and when 1610 Peter died 1610 Gwen stating "I'm cursed" believing her existence brought death to others, and 617 Gwen traveling the Multiverse also commenting on how many Gwens had died (but also indication something might be responsible pushing things along that way in a Multiverse that should allow many possibles good and bad and zany even).

    In my mind detective 617 Gwen first traveled the multiverse shortly after bonding to a symbiote. After bonding to her symbiote a portal rips open and some force pushes her into it and into a world full of Gwens and MJ with powers. We discover this new 'Earth' isn't a 'Earth' per say but a universe sized made prison. That a powerful Watcher whom has limited scope but has seen Earth 616 and a few others came to believe that all Gwens and MJs could only be depowered love interests and they had to follow certain rules. These Gwens and MJs were 'multiverse defects' and he saw them as a cancer that should be ripped out.

    Curious to their stories 617 Gwen talks and documents each super or interesting finding Gwen and MJ individually or together if they came from the same world to discover their tales and info of their world in the Multiverse. 617 Gwen gets to know each one and writing down (or better yet it's 'Brian Michael Gwendis' who is writing this down ready to have ideas for tales when she gets back home) an anthology of different Multiverse Gwen and MJ stories.


    (Curious to the people here who do you think is the equivalent MJ writer version? 'Mary Janeway' (Conway)? As seen in Spider-Geddon #5 we have a 'Spider-Stan')

    Going back: Unknown due to being distracted by another Earth Gwen and MJ he was focusing on ripping them out of their dimension the Watcher is unaware that due to time travel and Multiverse jumping 617 Gwen met some time ago Earth-65 Gwen who inspired her to study the multiverse. When Earth-65 left to go back to her time and Earth-65 617 Gwen began making drawings of prototypes of possible dimension jumpers based on that watch Earth-65 Gwen had on and went about finding weak spots on the Earth that might allowed passageways to be made. But since it's untested 617 Gwen has to wait till meeting the Gwens and MJs equal to 616 Tony and Reeds work out and have the materials needed to make a teleporter or other that will allow them to all go back home to their Earths.

    After the anthology series is done (with the last story being how 617 Gwen and her symbiote met and influences to their positive hero partnership just before being ripped out):
    Teaming up the imprisoned Gwens and MJs all plan to stop this Watcher then many going back home to their Earth dimensions but also stop anybody who feels has the right to hurt others or contain the realms of possibilities for all in the multiverse. Meeting other cast of characters who is vastly different from 616 versions from powers to morality and species a team is formed with 617 Gwen/Gwenom being one of the Multiverse Gwen and MJ team founders. The big battle taking place and beating the evil limited scoped Watcher who was distracted ready to imprison another Gwen who was about to be bitten by a spider (Earth-65) and gain powers when 617 Gwen surprised attacked him.

    Each issue in the anthology series focuses on a different version Gwen, MJ or together if they both came from the same Earth dimension and was ripped out from their home dimension together. Possible of a tale having one super Gwen and one super MJ that came from different Earths forming a relationship after getting imprisoned and meeting each other.

    After beating the Watcher that formed that prison Universe that 'Earth' became a 'holiday retreat' for the various Gwens and MJs and a few Multiverse jumpers gathering together once a year in a convention style reunion weekend to tell stories, have fun, relaxation, or sell approved Multi-verse merchandise (which when doing so makes the 'walls' between that Earth and others very weak with so many travelers heading there it pulled Ant-Man and Wasp when they chaotically were Multiverse jumping surprising a few for the seconds they flew by unexpectedly).

  4. #64
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Found this on reddit:
    3fs86h43rt821.jpg
    Last edited by LordUltimus; 01-06-2019 at 12:26 PM.

  5. #65
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Found this on reddit:
    3fs86h43rt821.jpg
    Looks like MJ's having some fun with Peter's costume .

  6. #66
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngelJD View Post
    The two being Wolverines yet separate characterizations and backdrop from each other gave a nice yin/yang vibe to them.
    Interesting that they did chose opposite emotions. However, Gwen seems to be Logan the Wolverine, while MJ was X-23 with a unique costume (Gwen has three claws, MJ has two). I think they did pick the appropriate emotions for the characters they were dressed as, though; Wolverine is largely defined by anger and how he channels it for good or bad, while X-23, despite having her father's temper buried under a more reserved and withdrawn personality, in many ways seems to be more of a whole person then Logan is and capable of a surprising level of normalcy for a clone with a horrifically abusive childhood (how many Marvel superheroes have a healthy family life and a life period beyond their superheroing?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    Can we just pretend that whole wretched era never happened?
    Eh, the art in and of itself was good and did her justice (although I would've done without the slashed Spidey logo in that one). I will concede, based on what I know of that era, that there may have been more palatable eras where they couple was estranged for a time (e.g. Bendis's own USM, maybe?).
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  7. #67
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Eh, the art in and of itself was good and did her justice (although I would've done without the slashed Spidey logo in that one). I will concede, based on what I know of that era, that there may have been more palatable eras where they couple was estranged for a time (e.g. Bendis's own USM, maybe?).
    I didn't think MJ was that bad in Bendis' Iron Man books, she was portrayed pretty well and got some good moments, the problem was she didn't really get to do much. It took until #11 for her to finally accepted the job, then Civil War II happened immediately after, so she ended up pushed to the side alongside the rest of the supporting cast when the focus was put on Riri.

    I think it could've been cool to see more of her in control and doing her job, as the couple moments where she is shown accomplishing some tasks allow her to work her theatrics and personality into the job.

    And regarding them being estranged in USM, they've only really been broken up for a period of 2-3 arcs, so its never really a huge gap of time to help define those eras.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

  8. #68
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Bendis literally used MJ because Slott was going to send her to comic book limbo. (Too bad he never actually did much with her, but it's still better than comic book limbo.)
    It does add more "huh?" to her story.

    But I have a general problem with how vast comic genius is and how easily everyone slides into these roles they are in no way suited to or qualified for.

  9. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    And regarding them being estranged in USM, they've only really been broken up for a period of 2-3 arcs, so its never really a huge gap of time to help define those eras.
    I did this post on page 2 of this thread trying to list the number of issues where Peter and MJ are together as a couple in 616 and AU.

    In USM, this is their entire dating history:

    Ultimate Spider-Man
    - Peter and MJ are dating from Issue #13- Issue #32 (First Breakup), 20 Issues
    - Peter and MJ are dating from Issue #42- Issue #77 (Second Breakup), 35 Issues
    - Peter and MJ are dating from Issue #105- Issue #133 Ultimatum, end of Volume 1 (they break-up in time-skip between two volumes) - 28 Issues
    - Annual #3 (broke up between Annuals 1 and 2)
    - Peter an MJ are dating from Issue #155 to end of Vol. 3, Death of Spider-Man in 160 - 6 Issues
    - Peter and MJ reunited some time before the opening arc of the Return of Ultimate Peter - 7 Issues
    - Spider-Men II, final issue, shows Peter and MJ sitll together:
    TOTAL: 97 Issues showing them in a relationship.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I mean the only way Bendis could have done much with her in an Iron Man story is to have her date Tony...which he absolutely did not want to do. I mean it wouldn't make sense from a character perspective, like why would a character, as per Slott, who left Peter and Spider-Man because she didn't want to be part of his superhero life...date an even more destructive drama-magnet who is also a proven alcoholic (like her father).
    I disagree with you here. A lot. There are a thousand of things that a that I writer can do with a female character besides the LI card. Especially with a big name recognition character like MJ. She( and female cast in general) can offer a lot more to any book than being the girlfriend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I mean it wasn't too believable that she would work for Stark and Bendis had to destroy the whole club-owner status-quo for good to force her in a desperate 'Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in' moment. And Bendis didn't have a lot of interest in Tony Stark either, so he had Riri come in-between, and then the entire Stark Industries is run by women, with Amanda Armstrong and so on. So I think he didn't do too badly.
    It's true that Bendis did nothing with her. But I think it was due to a mix of factors. According to his interviews a lot changed from the first idea: Riri became the central, he got sick and he left for DC. So everything was all over the place. The wrong note for me was give MJ a place as an executive in a tech company, something she is not qualified for. Maybe as actually a type of life coach or even helping more in the action would have been more fit for her. Thank God Bendis kept real enough to make her and Amanda time as CEO a total disaster ( the two of them almost lost Stark Ind to a jerk director, so no surprise that Tony fired her).

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Weirdly in that whole Regent story arc, Slott tries to hype and ship Tony/MJ more than Bendis did.
    Look, I think Power Play was the weakest arc in Slott's run. And yes, it was necessary to the plot a more important MJ's role in IM world to justify Peter acting like a brat. But that could not be romantic because at the same time Bendis was building a passionate romance between Tony and a Dr. Amara, and a love triangle between them and Dr.Doom (That was a great female character and an interesting arc that Bendis created and also did not use). And probably Bendis and Slott talked about the arc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    This is just my assumption and wish-fulfillment, but I think Bendis having MJ work as a corporate officer and so on, was a shot against the bow at Slott's business Peter storylines. He's basically showing everyone a story arc of Slott that would totally have worked and worked better with a married Peter. And of course by having MJ work and move up the corporate ladder at the same time as Peter's, he's basically ensuring that she remains Peter's equal, his match, and the whole Parallel Lives character development motif that's a big part of the character since Conway's story. I mean you could easily have seen MJ work Parker Industries and do the whole socialite and PR thing for Peter, and all the stuff that could have brought to their relationship and so on. Nick Spencer even refers to it in Issue #10 where MJ notes that she was briefly a part of Peter's wheelhouse but now they are back to the old setup an so on.
    I don't think in MJ as a type of woman to stay in an office all day or acting as a socialite. Even if married to Peter or working in his company. I hope Spencer put her in some fashion related job again. Not as a model of course, but maybe as a columnist for a fashion magazine ( if they go to a more video game related thing), having a blog about beauty and health, start a small company in fashion (like RYW). Something like this.
    Last edited by Ana; 01-07-2019 at 08:26 AM.

  11. #71
    Mighty Member LordUltimus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana View Post
    I don't think in MJ as a type of woman to stay in an office all day or acting as a socialite. Even if married to Peter or working in his company. I hope Spencer put her in some fashion related job again. Not as a model of course, but maybe as a columnist for a fashion magazine ( if they go to a more video game related thing), having a blog about beauty and health, start a small company in fashion (like RYW). Something like this.
    Maybe she becomes a writer for Woman Magazine? She was a supporting character for about 5 minutes with the first Ms. Marvel series back in the 70's, right?

  12. #72
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ana View Post
    I disagree with you here. A lot. There are a thousand of things that a that I writer can do with a female character besides the LI card. Especially with a big name recognition character like MJ. She( and female cast in general) can offer a lot more to any book than being the girlfriend.



    It's true that Bendis did nothing with her. But I think it was due to a mix of factors. According to his interviews a lot changed from the first idea: Riri became the central, he got sick and he left for DC. So everything was all over the place. The wrong note for me was give MJ a place as an executive in a tech company, something she is not qualified for. Maybe as actually a type of life coach or even helping more in the action would have been more fit for her. Thank God Bendis kept real enough to make her and Amanda time as CEO a total disaster ( the two of them almost lost Stark Ind to a jerk director, so no surprise that Tony fired her).



    Look, I think Power Play was the weakest arc in Slott's run. And yes, it was necessary to the plot a more important MJ's role in IM world to justify Peter acting like a brat. But that could not be romantic because at the same time Bendis was building a passionate romance between Tony and a Dr. Amara, and a love triangle between them and Dr.Doom (That was a great female character and an interesting arc that Bendis created and also did not use). And probably Bendis and Slott talked about the arc.



    I don't think in MJ as a type of woman to stay in an office all day or acting as a socialite. Even if married to Peter or working in his company. I hope Spencer put her in some fashion related job again. Not as a model of course, but maybe as a columnist for a fashion magazine ( if they go to a more video game related thing), having a blog about beauty and health, start a small company in fashion (like RYW). Something like this.
    I like those ideas, and I do agree that female characters in general, especially ones with huge name recognition and story potential like Mary Jane Watson, deserve more than just being relegated to the role of "love interest."

    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    Maybe she becomes a writer for Woman Magazine? She was a supporting character for about 5 minutes with the first Ms. Marvel series back in the 70's, right?
    Yes, she was, and in the first issue or so along with Peter and J. Jonah Jameson, if I recall. Having Mary Jane write about her experiences in the fashion industry, the acting business, as a nightclub owner, and maybe even her time working for Stark for Woman Magazine, likely revamped as an online blog, would be a very interesting development. It could give the writer and the audience a chance to really delve into her perspective on her life and on the world around her, especially if commenting (subtext or not) on certain pertinent issues in the culture.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  13. #73
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I didn't think MJ was that bad in Bendis' Iron Man books, she was portrayed pretty well and got some good moments, the problem was she didn't really get to do much. It took until #11 for her to finally accepted the job, then Civil War II happened immediately after, so she ended up pushed to the side alongside the rest of the supporting cast when the focus was put on Riri.

    I think it could've been cool to see more of her in control and doing her job, as the couple moments where she is shown accomplishing some tasks allow her to work her theatrics and personality into the job.
    Ah.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    And regarding them being estranged in USM, they've only really been broken up for a period of 2-3 arcs, so its never really a huge gap of time to help define those eras.
    True, certainly when reading through the whole thing now (as people have pointed out, more then half the series had them as a couple and that was communicated to be the only viable scenario). However, at the time, with stuff coming out month by month, some of those gaps were kinda long. Also, I think USM also generally balanced the breakups with the idea that even if the couple had had a falling out, they hadn't fallen out of love with each other. Really different then OMD, OMIT, and related 616 stuff that seemed to be arguing that the marriage was a mistake, bad for the characters and all that.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  14. #74
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    For those interested, Chapter Twenty-Seven of my What If OMD Never Happened? story is posted. In this chapter a slice of life with a side of trouble -

    https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1281972...-The-Great-Web

    If so inclined, enjoy.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  15. #75
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    True, certainly when reading through the whole thing now (as people have pointed out, more then half the series had them as a couple and that was communicated to be the only viable scenario). However, at the time, with stuff coming out month by month, some of those gaps were kinda long. Also, I think USM also generally balanced the breakups with the idea that even if the couple had had a falling out, they hadn't fallen out of love with each other. Really different then OMD, OMIT, and related 616 stuff that seemed to be arguing that the marriage was a mistake, bad for the characters and all that.
    I do think that last point really shows the indecision between the many writers who work on Spider-Man about how love and relationships should be. Quesada thinks he shouldn't be married and should have many relationship possibilities. Slott thinks he shouldn't have any relationships period. And now Spencer thinks he should be with his true love.
    Current Reading List: Amazing Spider-Man, Spider-Gwen, West Coast Avengers, Ms. Marvel, Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man, Avengers, Sonic The Hedgehog

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