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  1. #826
    Mighty Member tg1982's Avatar
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    I went back and started reading Captain America: Winter Solder again. It’s such a great book. Every so often I like to go back and read my old TPB. Next I’ll probably do Avengers: Under Siege. Especially after all the talking about it.
    I hope I shall possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an honest man.
    - George Washington

  2. #827
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Today's Cap...

    ...Not sure how I feel about the Scourge reveal. I was hoping it was someone we were already familiar with, not a new character entirely, and the grieving partner thing is a bit of a tired trope, but still, it will be interesting to see how this develops further and I am intrigued by Diaz and hope Coates really fleshes him out as a character beyond 'vengeful partner with military background'. This issue definitely gave me the vibe that Steve and Sharon are not going to end this run remaining a couple, since Coates emphasized the trust thing re: "if we didn't have trust, what did we have", but, on the plus side, I doubt now he'll end up with Peggy either, since she's the main orchestrate-or of the deception, so that somewhat assuages my fears that they're trying to be MCU-adjacent (which I've feared since they brought Peggy into this book). Things are really heating up! Pretty curious what the "heart-stopping climax" they're teasing for the next issue is!

  3. #828
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    It's cool.



    Indeed, which is a shame, really. And yeah, I could say the same, though Civil War was the event that got me fully into Marvel when I was a politically conscious college student, so it did have a certain place in my heart. That, and Captain America's interactions with Spider-Man in the ASM tie-in issues were personal highlights for me.
    Been on vacation the past six days, so I'm a little late in replying to this but yes, I agree, Amazing Spider-Man #537 is one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) Steve Rogers cameos of all-time. Straczynski is welcome to write Cap anytime he wants as far as I'm concerned. In fact, he continues to nail Steve to this day, and can do it with just one line...


  4. #829
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Today's Cap...

    ...Not sure how I feel about the Scourge reveal. I was hoping it was someone we were already familiar with, not a new character entirely, and the grieving partner thing is a bit of a tired trope, but still, it will be interesting to see how this develops further and I am intrigued by Diaz and hope Coates really fleshes him out as a character beyond 'vengeful partner with military background'. This issue definitely gave me the vibe that Steve and Sharon are not going to end this run remaining a couple, since Coates emphasized the trust thing re: "if we didn't have trust, what did we have", but, on the plus side, I doubt now he'll end up with Peggy either, since she's the main orchestrate-or of the deception, so that somewhat assuages my fears that they're trying to be MCU-adjacent (which I've feared since they brought Peggy into this book). Things are really heating up! Pretty curious what the "heart-stopping climax" they're teasing for the next issue is!
    Peggy is behind scourge? I think i missed that.

  5. #830
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Interesting tidbit brought up in today's Captain Marvel (hear me out, yes it does involve Steve, thus my bringing it up in this thread). Apparently SHIELD, unbeknownst to the Avengers, has/had clones of them (and Carol knew about it, for all that she clearly didn't approve). Considering Steve's ongoing issues/trauma associated with this sort of thing (hydra!Cap, Weapons Plus, Red Skull's essence inhibiting an empty clone made from Steve Rogers' DNA in Gruenwald's run, take your pick of traumatic experiences) I can't imagine he's going to be especially thrilled to find this out.



    I do have a couple of questions here that maybe someone can answer? As far as I'm aware SHIELD is still, technically, disbanded, right? So they must have done this before Secret Empire and yet it's the current Avenger's line-up that is cloned, a line-up that happened post-Secret Empire? Is there something I'm missing here?

    Be that as it may... that these clones exist and the DNA of Steve, Thor, Tony, Jen, T'Challa, et al, is out there and being harnessed, does have interesting implications given the current state of the Marvel Universe.

  6. #831
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IvanSkavisnky View Post
    Peggy is behind scourge? I think i missed that.
    No, that wasn't what I was saying. I meant those to be two unrelated events in my overall impressions of the issue as a whole, I guess I wasn't clear enough in separating them. What I was referring to in regards to Peggy, specifically, and what she *is* responsible for, is Sharon being evasive with Steve, thus the current trust issues between them. Aka the trust issues that Steve referred to at the end of today's issue originally surfaced an issue or two back (I think #15?) when Steve asked Sharon point-blank about how the Daughters of Liberty formed, how long they had been operating and who they answered to, and Sharon, at Peggy's request, refused to tell him and, as we found out today, continues to be evasive about it. Coates saying 'if we don't have trust, what do we have' struck me as a bit forshadow-y to Steve finding this all out for himself, the hard way. Especially as the January and February solicitations have Steve, unknowingly, fighting "Dryad".

    Steve's narration in this book is being written in the past-tense, indicating that the events we're reading about have long since happened. So in that context trust being brought up, in his narration, is obviously important to the story.

  7. #832
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I do have a couple of questions here that maybe someone can answer? As far as I'm aware SHIELD is still, technically, disbanded, right? So they must have done this before Secret Empire and yet it's the current Avenger's line-up that is cloned, a line-up that happened post-Secret Empire? Is there something I'm missing here?

    Be that as it may... that these clones exist and the DNA of Steve, Thor, Tony, Jen, T'Challa, et al, is out there and being harnessed, does have interesting implications given the current state of the Marvel Universe.
    i don't think it's the current line up that is cloned. There appears to be a dark haired woman in one of those tubes, who I can imagine is jessica drew? Either way no dark haired woman on current avengers list. And all of the others have also been avengers.

    It's probably a general collection of avengers rather than any line up in particular. There's probably more clones in the back.

  8. #833

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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Steve's narration in this book is being written in the past-tense, indicating that the events we're reading about have long since happened. So in that context trust being brought up, in his narration, is obviously important to the story.
    The past-tense thing is something I've noticed, and reading back it begins around #8 with Steve's narration starting with "I want to tell you a story" and "a story of life and death." So, ultimately, I wonder who he's telling this story to. The readers? Someone else?

    I definitely agree that I'm getting the vibe that Steve and Sharon aren't going to make it out of this arc unscathed. Trust issues have been a running theme with them during Coates' run, even going back to his earliest issues where Steve recognizes that Sharon still doesn't completely trust him after what Captain Hydra did to her. So, I wouldn't be shocked if this was a leadup to the end...which is a bummer, because they're one of my favorite comic pairings and have been a long-runner. ~15 years at this point? Oh, also going back to the past-tense narration thing: In a previous issue, Steve referred to their relationship in the story as "I loved Sharon with all of my heart. We were a unit to ourselves." Which...I assume he would use present tense if they were still together.

  9. #834
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ichijinijisanji View Post
    i don't think it's the current line up that is cloned. There appears to be a dark haired woman in one of those tubes, who I can imagine is jessica drew? Either way no dark haired woman on current avengers list. And all of the others have also been avengers.

    It's probably a general collection of avengers rather than any line up in particular. There's probably more clones in the back.
    Oh, I just assumed that the female clone in the tube on the left was Nat (who just joined the current line-up last issue) and the one on the right, Jen. Makes way more sense if they made clones of anyone who had ever been an Avenger, though, so I think you're right. Thank you!

  10. #835
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    The past-tense thing is something I've noticed, and reading back it begins around #8 with Steve's narration starting with "I want to tell you a story" and "a story of life and death." So, ultimately, I wonder who he's telling this story to. The readers? Someone else?

    I definitely agree that I'm getting the vibe that Steve and Sharon aren't going to make it out of this arc unscathed. Trust issues have been a running theme with them during Coates' run, even going back to his earliest issues where Steve recognizes that Sharon still doesn't completely trust him after what Captain Hydra did to her. So, I wouldn't be shocked if this was a leadup to the end...which is a bummer, because they're one of my favorite comic pairings and have been a long-runner. ~15 years at this point? Oh, also going back to the past-tense narration thing: In a previous issue, Steve referred to their relationship in the story as "I loved Sharon with all of my heart. We were a unit to ourselves." Which...I assume he would use present tense if they were still together.
    Good catch! You're right. He did refer to them as a unit in past-tense there, too. And yeah, it is sad. I like Sharon. In fact, I've liked all of Steve's girlfriends and was sad to see all of his serious relationships end. Steve has the unique (to Marvel) stance of being pretty long-term in his love life. I mean, Bernie may not have lasted as long as Sharon but she was around at least five years (and three different writers) and Rachel lasted a few years as well.

    And Sharon, let's see, Brubaker put them back together early on in his run, before Cap was shot, and Brubaker's run started in 2005, which, you're right, puts that 15 years ago (God, can't believe that much time has passed, it seems like yesterday). And Waid started the storyline by bringing Sharon back to life in his run, which was 20 years ago.

    Da-amn the reminders of how long ago this all happened makes me feel really, super old, lol.

    So yes, agreed, it is sad. BUT she's a major fixture in Steve's life, and Steve remains friends with his exes (re: Bernie, and also, Rachel made a comment in the Domino book about still being in contact with Steve, enough that when she and Domino were stranded she called Steve and he sent an Avengers jet for them to use), so even if they do break up, I seriously doubt she's out of his life for good.

  11. #836

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    Oh, yeah, I don't expect her to be out of his life for good, and I wouldn't be shocked if they rekindle a romance in the future. It's hard for comic writers to ignore literal decades of history. I'm mostly just bummed it's likely coming as a result of ~~Synergy~~, and not because the story necessarily calls for it? I honestly think I would be a little less annoyed/sad if Peggy wasn't showing up and running around for reasons unknown. Then again, I have a special fondness for Sharon, mostly because when I started getting into comics, it was with Brubaker's run and I sort of latched onto the character and ship. So their relationship ending would be almost an end of an era of comics reading for me?

    But, yeah, Steve generally has good taste in love interests. I've had little love for comic!Peggy, as she was more or less a footnote in this story, so it's really hard for me to get excited about her return. Ed Brubaker did not endear her to me with his writing, which I think was his intention. He occasionally went out of his way to portray Steve's exes in a terrible light, which is something I now sort of side eye as an adult. (But I do that with a lot of his run now irt to how he wrote women. Sharon's trauma conga in following Steve's death was INSANE.)

  12. #837
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Oh, I just assumed that the female clone in the tube on the left was Nat (who just joined the current line-up last issue) and the one on the right, Jen. Makes way more sense if they made clones of anyone who had ever been an Avenger, though, so I think you're right. Thank you!
    of course, I am an idiot for forgetting about nat.

  13. #838
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    Oh, yeah, I don't expect her to be out of his life for good, and I wouldn't be shocked if they rekindle a romance in the future. It's hard for comic writers to ignore literal decades of history. I'm mostly just bummed it's likely coming as a result of ~~Synergy~~, and not because the story necessarily calls for it? I honestly think I would be a little less annoyed/sad if Peggy wasn't showing up and running around for reasons unknown. Then again, I have a special fondness for Sharon, mostly because when I started getting into comics, it was with Brubaker's run and I sort of latched onto the character and ship. So their relationship ending would be almost an end of an era of comics reading for me?

    But, yeah, Steve generally has good taste in love interests. I've had little love for comic!Peggy, as she was more or less a footnote in this story, so it's really hard for me to get excited about her return. Ed Brubaker did not endear her to me with his writing, which I think was his intention. He occasionally went out of his way to portray Steve's exes in a terrible light, which is something I now sort of side eye as an adult. (But I do that with a lot of his run now irt to how he wrote women. Sharon's trauma conga in following Steve's death was INSANE.)
    As a fellow female reader I completely relate to what you're saying here about Brubaker's female portrayals. I side-eyed the hell out of Sharon's pregnancy storyline. Ugh. And don't get me started on Sin and Crossbones and the disturbing implications in THAT pairing (pedophilia). Gross. Super gross.

    Brubaker's run was amazing, there's no denying that, he's a great storyteller, and can plot like no one's business, but yes, sometimes his portrayal of women left a lot bit to be desired, as evidenced in him having Rachel come on to Steve while he was in a relationship with Sharon, right in front of Sharon, or, as you mentioned, how Peggy was written in the Cap House of M tie-in, that had her divorcing Steve because he gave up the mantle to follow his dream of becoming an astronaut (apparently becoming an astronaut is low balling it, no one tell Neil Armstrong!) which has made it extremely hard on me to think of Peggy in a positive light for years as well, so I hear you. And yes, agreed, the MCU synergy thing is not something I like nor want to read. I prefer to think of the two as separate universes. Earth-616 and Earth-199999 (I think that was the MCU Earth designation?) and pray they stay that way.

    I listened to an interview with Coates on Youtube recently, where for his last book (The Water Dancer), he mentioned he specifically sought out the advice of female editors on his portrayals of his female characters, so the fact that he's committed to learning and getting it right gives me hope that wherever the plot brings us in the Cap book regarding Sharon AND Peggy, he'll do it in a respectful manner.

  14. #839
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Interesting tidbit brought up in today's Captain Marvel (hear me out, yes it does involve Steve, thus my bringing it up in this thread). Apparently SHIELD, unbeknownst to the Avengers, has/had clones of them (and Carol knew about it, for all that she clearly didn't approve). Considering Steve's ongoing issues/trauma associated with this sort of thing (hydra!Cap, Weapons Plus, Red Skull's essence inhibiting an empty clone made from Steve Rogers' DNA in Gruenwald's run, take your pick of traumatic experiences) I can't imagine he's going to be especially thrilled to find this out.



    I do have a couple of questions here that maybe someone can answer? As far as I'm aware SHIELD is still, technically, disbanded, right? So they must have done this before Secret Empire and yet it's the current Avenger's line-up that is cloned, a line-up that happened post-Secret Empire? Is there something I'm missing here?

    Be that as it may... that these clones exist and the DNA of Steve, Thor, Tony, Jen, T'Challa, et al, is out there and being harnessed, does have interesting implications given the current state of the Marvel Universe.
    Clones! Clones! Everywhere clones! Took the DNA straight from my bones!

    You get a clone! You get a clone! You get a clone! Everybody gets a clone!

    I'm done now. Just watch out for my clone.

  15. #840
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Today's Cap...

    ...Not sure how I feel about the Scourge reveal. I was hoping it was someone we were already familiar with, not a new character entirely, and the grieving partner thing is a bit of a tired trope, but still, it will be interesting to see how this develops further and I am intrigued by Diaz and hope Coates really fleshes him out as a character beyond 'vengeful partner with military background'. This issue definitely gave me the vibe that Steve and Sharon are not going to end this run remaining a couple, since Coates emphasized the trust thing re: "if we didn't have trust, what did we have", but, on the plus side, I doubt now he'll end up with Peggy either, since she's the main orchestrate-or of the deception, so that somewhat assuages my fears that they're trying to be MCU-adjacent (which I've feared since they brought Peggy into this book). Things are really heating up! Pretty curious what the "heart-stopping climax" they're teasing for the next issue is!
    Yeah, no idea what it could be. I guess we'll find out soon enough, though!

    As for today's issue, it was another solid entry in this run. It's hard not to sound like a broken record but, boy, Coates really excels at writing Cap.

    I liked that the Scourge storyline made some real forward progress here and that we can see this isn't going to be dragged out. While, like you, I was also expecting Scourge to be someone we already knew, I wasn't unhappy at all with the reveal. There's plenty of potential with Diaz, which I hope Coates will delve into.

    As a fan of this run, the rumors that Coates will be staying on with the 2020 relaunch suits me fine. I just hope they get an A-list artist to join the book. Losing Yu and Kubert sucked and while the current artist is doing ok, I think Cap deserves a bigger name. As good as the current arc is, I can only imagine how much more punch it'd have if Yu or Kubert were still around to bring it to life.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 12-11-2019 at 04:57 PM.

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