Steve Rogers: Captain America Appreciation 2019

[capandkirby]

Relatable.

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[Michael Watkins]

The life Hydra!Cap lived was fake. Made up. A mid-night brainstorm session between Red Skull and Kobik. No different than a rock star hashing out a song while waiting for Starbucks to make their cappuccino.

i'm willing to have my mind changed. but I think you're wrong. Spencer said that it wasn't a fake out. Kobik took Red Skull's dream and retroactively made it a reality. and she added her own spin to it (the reason why Hydra-Steve came to conclusion that the Skull had corrupted Hydra). there are two Steve Rogers now. they both lived their lives. one ended up supreme commander of Hydra.

So you can argue that Hydra!Cap was the result of Red Skull's scheming, it was an example of his mental prowess at work, it was just a scheme that got away from him.

that's why I called him an incompetent. he doesn't think long term. any idiot could have seen that the way the Red Skull treated Steve was going to blow up in his face. Falcon is also a product of the Red Skull's scheming. doesn't make him any less real.

Just like most of Skull's plans get away from him. And Hydra!Cap, in his fake, completely made-up life, did have the advantage that his real counterpart was a trusted and beloved leader.

he was a double agent. that was always the plan. he made himself into a symbol of America, gained their trust, and then enacted his plan.

The Red Skull and Kobik's fake history couldn't have been pulled off if Steve Rogers wasn't established as a beloved and trusted hero, they wrote that sentiment into their altered reality.

i'm not sure that's how the cosmic cube works. are you thinking of the mind gem?

Anyway, it does't really matter if one writer wrote Skull as kind of an idiot. Skull has been Steve's number one villain from the onslaught.

only because he's a relic of WWII. what Steve has always fought against is human nature/the ugly side of patriotism. Hydra-Steve represented all of that. and he had the resourcefulness (even w/o the cosmic cube that the Red Skull relied on) to challenge him.

But I could be wrong. Maybe Coates will continue to use Stevil. It honestly doesn't really matter enough to me to argue about it. I'm just putting forth my hypothesis. As long as Steve Rogers triumphs over evil in the end, I'm happy either way. Red Skull, Stevil, I want to see real!Steve kick both their butts, so it's all good. I have always had a subscription to the Cap title, even when it sucks, so it's not like that's going to end if Hydra!Cap sticks around or anything *shrug*.

i'm onboard with the current storyline. I always give it a try.

[capandkirby]

i'm willing to have my mind changed. but I think you're wrong. Spencer said that it wasn't a fake out. Kobik took Red Skull's dream and retroactively made it a reality. and she added her own spin to it (the reason why Hydra-Steve came to conclusion that the Skull had corrupted Hydra). there are two Steve Rogers now. they both lived their lives. one ended up supreme commander of Hydra.

I think this one is relative. It depends on how much credence you give a life that was made up on the fly by the Skull and a cube with the mentality of a child vs. a life fully lived. Meaning, to use an analogy, real!Steve's reality was not something made up by Red Skull and a cosmic cube. It was natural. He was actually born and lived and grew to become the man we know and love. Hydra!Steve's story was plotted out for him, and given to him suddenly after a particular grueling fight with Crossbones following Avengers: Standoff, by his arch enemy and the living embodiment of a being with Beyonder-like capabilities but the psyche of a seven-year-old (or however old Kobik was supposed to be, I don't remember). Not speaking for you, but for *me*, hydra!Steve's life, especially since no one else experienced his version of reality (even his BFF Zemo knows Stevil's reality is not the real one), real!Steve's reality has the precedence here.

I will concede, however, that Stevil's version of reality is real to him. It's like that Star Trek:TNG episode the Inner Light. The outside influence induced life-time that Picard lived with that one extinct alien race is real to him, but to the rest of the crew it's 'our Captain was hit with an energy beam by a weird alien probe and now he thinks he had a wife, kids and grandchildren'.

that's why I called him an incompetent. he doesn't think long term. any idiot could have seen that the way the Red Skull treated Steve was going to blow up in his face. Falcon is also a product of the Red Skull's scheming. doesn't make him any less real.

I mean, that's storytelling. Ultimately the hero is going to triumph over the schemes of the villain. Red Skull's plans are always destined to fail, they are always going to have aspects of them that fail miserably, because Steve is the hero of this story and the story is from his perspective.

Gruenwald's run: Red Skull, in a clone of Steve, no less, infiltrated the government, got them to out Steve as Captain America and insert John Walker. Ultimately this plan when up in a cloud of dust (heh, see what I did there ). Brubaker's run, the plan to brainwash Sharon Carter, get her to kill Steve, but not really kill him because he was shot with magic bullets that stuck him outside the time-stream, while injecting her with chronicle tracers also, ultimately, punched him in his face.

Because in the story of a superhero, good triumphs over evil.

he was a double agent. that was always the plan. he made himself into a symbol of America, gained their trust, and then enacted his plan.

That wasn't *his* plan, because he didn't exist before Kobik created him under the Red Skull's influence following Pleasant Hill. His past, his childhood, all made up.

i'm not sure that's how the cosmic cube works. are you thinking of the mind gem?

You read the Pleasant Hill arc, right? I mean the entire premise was that Kobik was being used to change reality for those prisoners. They were, essentially, being brainwashed into believing they were people they were not, living a life that was fake. She's more powerful than the mind gem. She's a little Molecule Man. She can control mind AND matter. I mean, we already knew this though, even before Pleasant Hill. Remember Mark Waid's very first Cap story? The one where Skull trapped Steve inside the cube and the cube convinced Steve that he was still in WW2, fighting along side the Invaders, and that his mother was still alive, all in order to entice him to stay inside of it? Where it read his subconscious and put Steve in a world where he was convinced he belonged so he wouldn't question anything?

only because he's a relic of WWII. what Steve has always fought against is human nature/the ugly side of patriotism. Hydra-Steve represented all of that. and he had the resourcefulness (even w/o the cosmic cube that the Red Skull relied on) to challenge him.

Agreed. Skull is still Skull though. He's a part of pop culture by this point. I'm by no means claiming he's the best thing ever for a story. I'm claiming that he's a Marvel comics staple, particular for the Cap division of it.

i'm onboard with the current storyline. I always give it a try.

I am loving this run as well. Coates is very good, so whatever he has planned I have confidence will be great. And like I said, I honestly, legit, don't care which villain they use, as long as that villain provides an interesting and dynamic challenge. Because, ultimately, it all comes down to Steve here, this is his story. It's about Steve being tested. Steve's use of tactics to outsmart his adversary. Steve overcoming adversity. Steve being beaten down, but then rising up like a phoenix. The intrigue from the story comes from how Steve is being challenged, not so much who is doing the challenging. Any villain can be written either competently or incompetently. I will grant you, however, that Stevil would probably have a greater impact on Steve's psyche, at this stage in Steve's life, than the Skull would, because Steve is still suffering from the fall-out of Secret Empire.

[Michael Watkins]

Technically, the current Captain America imprisoned at the Myrmidon is a construct of Kobik. And, before that, he was a construct of Franklin Richards (twice if you count Secret Wars). That's where I'm coming from when I call Hydra-Cap real. Reality is sort of fluid in the 616. this came up in Fraction's Defenders book.

[jackolover]

I think this one is relative. It depends on how much credence you give a life that was made up on the fly by the Skull and a cube with the mentality of a child vs. a life fully lived. Meaning, to use an analogy, real!Steve's reality was not something made up by Red Skull and a cosmic cube. It was natural. He was actually born and lived and grew to become the man we know and love. Hydra!Steve's story was plotted out for him, and given to him suddenly after a particular grueling fight with Crossbones following Avengers: Standoff, by his arch enemy and the living embodiment of a being with Beyonder-like capabilities but the psyche of a seven-year-old (or however old Kobik was supposed to be, I don't remember). Not speaking for you, but for *me*, hydra!Steve's life, especially since no one else experienced his version of reality (even his BFF Zemo knows Stevil's reality is not the real one), real!Steve's reality has the precedence here.

I will concede, however, that Stevil's version of reality is real to him. It's like that Star Trek:TNG episode the Inner Light. The outside influence induced life-time that Picard lived with that one extinct alien race is real to him, but to the rest of the crew it's 'our Captain was hit with an energy beam by a weird alien probe and now he thinks he had a wife, kids and grandchildren'.



I mean, that's storytelling. Ultimately the hero is going to triumph over the schemes of the villain. Red Skull's plans are always destined to fail, they are always going to have aspects of them that fail miserably, because Steve is the hero of this story and the story is from his perspective.

Gruenwald's run: Red Skull, in a clone of Steve, no less, infiltrated the government, got them to out Steve as Captain America and insert John Walker. Ultimately this plan when up in a cloud of dust (heh, see what I did there ). Brubaker's run, the plan to brainwash Sharon Carter, get her to kill Steve, but not really kill him because he was shot with magic bullets that stuck him outside the time-stream, while injecting her with chronicle tracers also, ultimately, punched him in his face.

Because in the story of a superhero, good triumphs over evil.




That wasn't *his* plan, because he didn't exist before Kobik created him under the Red Skull's influence following Pleasant Hill. His past, his childhood, all made up.



You read the Pleasant Hill arc, right? I mean the entire premise was that Kobik was being used to change reality for those prisoners. They were, essentially, being brainwashed into believing they were people they were not, living a life that was fake. She's more powerful than the mind gem. She's a little Molecule Man. She can control mind AND matter. I mean, we already knew this though, even before Pleasant Hill. Remember Mark Waid's very first Cap story? The one where Skull trapped Steve inside the cube and the cube convinced Steve that he was still in WW2, fighting along side the Invaders, and that his mother was still alive, all in order to entice him to stay inside of it? Where it read his subconscious and put Steve in a world where he was convinced he belonged so he wouldn't question anything?




Agreed. Skull is still Skull though. He's a part of pop culture by this point. I'm by no means claiming he's the best thing ever for a story. I'm claiming that he's a Marvel comics staple, particular for the Cap division of it.




I am loving this run as well. Coates is very good, so whatever he has planned I have confidence will be great. And like I said, I honestly, legit, don't care which villain they use, as long as that villain provides an interesting and dynamic challenge. Because, ultimately, it all comes down to Steve here, this is his story. It's about Steve being tested. Steve's use of tactics to outsmart his adversary. Steve overcoming adversity. Steve being beaten down, but then rising up like a phoenix. The intrigue from the story comes from how Steve is being challenged, not so much who is doing the challenging. Any villain can be written either competently or incompetently. I will grant you, however, that Stevil would probably have a greater impact on Steve's psyche, at this stage in Steve's life, than the Skull would, because Steve is still suffering from the fall-out of Secret Empire.

I’m getting close to considering the Red Skull is linked to Captain America intrinsically. That the struggle between Cap and Skull is eternal, so whenever we read a Cap story, inevitably Cap is defined by the Red Skull. Cap is freedom, and like the priest said to the cop (Eric Banner), in that movie, Deliver Us From Evil, “You cannot have evil unless you have goodness too”. (The cop asked, “How can there be a god who lets all the bad things happen?” And the priest said, “Because god has people who selflessly go out and confront evil. So, goodness does exists”. So though the Red Skull may not be the universal personification of evil, he certainly represents the face of the evil Cap is fighting - relentless, a huge challenge, and everpresent. Cap could not exist except for the Red Skull.

The Super Soldier Serum was invented as a balwark to the Nazi “Ubermench”. Doctor Erskine had to flee Germany to invent Captain America. Captain America was boiling in Erskine’s belly (figuratively speaking), and he had to let him out.

[Michael Watkins]

I’m getting close to considering the Red Skull is linked to Captain America intrinsically. That the struggle between Cap and Skull is eternal, so whenever we read a Cap story, inevitably Cap is defined by the Red Skull. Cap is freedom, and like the priest said to the cop (Eric Banner), in that movie, Deliver Us From Evil, “You cannot have evil unless you have goodness too”. (The cop asked, “How can there be a god who lets all the bad things happen?” And the priest said, “Because god has people who selflessly go out and confront evil. So, goodness does exists”. So though the Red Skull may not be the universal personification of evil, he certainly represents the face of the evil Cap is fighting - relentless, a huge challenge, and everpresent. Cap could not exist except for the Red Skull.

somewhat disproven when Hydra-Cap tossed him out of a window.

[capandkirby]

Technically, the current Captain America imprisoned at the Myrmidon is a construct of Kobik. And, before that, he was a construct of Franklin Richards (twice if you count Secret Wars). That's where I'm coming from when I call Hydra-Cap real. Reality is sort of fluid in the 616. this came up in Fraction's Defenders book.

Not sure if using Secret Wars as an example really compares. When everyone was 'remade' after Secret Wars they were given their previous life and memories. They didn't have a 'life' invented for them out of blue based on events that did not happen re:Hydra!Cap. Real!Steve's life actually happened. He was raised by Sarah Rogers, not Elisa. His childhood best friend was Arnie Roth, not Zemo. He fought in WW2 on the side of the Allies not to get the world to trust him but because it was the honorable thing to do. You're correct that Real!Steve has been made multiple times, but that applies to everybody, especially after Secret Wars, all of Marvel's heroes were remade. The difference here is that they were remade based on real events and their actual history. Hydra!Cap was a construct. His 'childhood' was never actually lived.

I mean, we're pretty much splitting hairs at this point. If you want to consider Hydra!Cap's life a reality, more power to you. But, for me, were I to steer on the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate, we, as a adults, are a conglomeration of our experiences, and Hydra!Cap's experiences weren't real. His formative years were made up by Red Skull.

[Michael Watkins]

Not sure if using Secret Wars as an example really compares.

it wasn't the main comparison. I was referencing Cap being remade during Heroes Reborn. if you'll recall, that history was actually altered to make that work (see: Tony Stark).

When everyone was 'remade' after Secret Wars they were given their previous life and memories.

i'll agree about the memories part of it. but they either died fighting Onslaught or didn't.

They didn't have a 'life' invented for them out of blue based on events that did not happen

are you sure? Franklin isn't omniscient. and we are talking about fictional characters operating with a sliding timescale with regular tweaks to it. there was a time when Steve Rogers wasn't put on ice and was throwing around anti-Japanese slurs. there was a time when Reed Richards was a war vet.

re:Hydra!Cap. Real!Steve's life actually happened. He was raised by Sarah Rogers, not Elisa. His childhood best friend was Arnie Roth, not Zemo. He fought in WW2 on the side of the Allies not to get the world to trust him but because it was the honorable thing to do. You're correct that Real!Steve has been made multiple times, but that applies to everybody, especially after Secret Wars, all of Marvel's heroes were remade. The difference here is that they were remade based on real events and their actual history. Hydra!Cap was a construct. His 'childhood' was never actually lived.

right. and that's where we differ. because who is Elisa? why did Kobik create her? how would she know to create her? she wasn't in the 'bedtime story' that the Red Skull read. she turned Steve against the Skull. and, up until her arrival, the two Steve's had the same life experiences. given that Elisa had life experiences of her own (that might even predate the cosmic cube given her comments about the elder gods), wouldn't it be easier to accept that what Kobik did was repair reality/put Elisa back into Steve's life?

I mean, we're pretty much splitting hairs at this point. If you want to consider Hydra!Cap's life a reality, more power to you. But, for me, were I to steer on the nurture side of the nature vs. nurture debate, we, as a adults, are a conglomeration of our experiences, and Hydra!Cap's experiences weren't real. His formative years were made up by Red Skull.

his formative years were spent with the original Kraken, Doctor Faustus, and Elisa Sinclair. he was an adult and Captain America before encountering the Red Skull. we weren't told the full story. what we do know is that Kobik sought out the Red Skull. she looked at Sinthea Schmidt and restored her face w/o having ever met the woman. and she restored Steve Rogers to his prime (along w/ his memories of his life). if this is the Red Skull's doing, why was he thrown out of the window? why was Elisa around?

[Snoop Dogg]

The idea behind Hydra Cap's backstory was that everyone/everything that was important to normal Steve's life had a sinister Hydra counterpart (Bucky = Zemo, Erskine = Zola, the poor and bad background/military = nice Hydra school life), so since Steve's mother was the most important person in his early life and is the reason that he is who he is, Elisa was an OC created to function as Stevil's mother. Because of how she looks and how she was shown to have higher power, I like to imagine she's what a grown up Kobik would look like. Essentially, she's like Kobik's self-insert in the new history she accidentally created.

[capandkirby]

...are you sure? Franklin isn't omniscient. and we are talking about fictional characters operating with a sliding timescale with regular tweaks to it. there was a time when Steve Rogers wasn't put on ice and was throwing around anti-Japanese slurs. there was a time when Reed Richards was a war vet.



right. and that's where we differ. because who is Elisa? why did Kobik create her? how would she know to create her? she wasn't in the 'bedtime story' that the Red Skull read. she turned Steve against the Skull. and, up until her arrival, the two Steve's had the same life experiences. given that Elisa had life experiences of her own (that might even predate the cosmic cube given her comments about the elder gods), wouldn't it be easier to accept that what Kobik did was repair reality/put Elisa back into Steve's life?



his formative years were spent with the original Kraken, Doctor Faustus, and Elisa Sinclair. he was an adult and Captain America before encountering the Red Skull. we weren't told the full story. what we do know is that Kobik sought out the Red Skull. she looked at Sinthea Schmidt and restored her face w/o having ever met the woman. and she restored Steve Rogers to his prime (along w/ his memories of his life). if this is the Red Skull's doing, why was he thrown out of the window? why was Elisa around?

Franklin, no. Molecule Man, who's powers they used, yes.

And to answer your last question: Because the 'simulation' took a life of it's own. It's like a game of Sims. You program a sim. You even give it it's personality traits. You create the people in it's life. But if you put it on auto run and give your Sim a measure of freewill so they can operate without you having to dictate their every move, they start to do things on their own. Hyda!Cap is nothing but a giant game of Sims.

[Michael Watkins]

The idea behind Hydra Cap's backstory was that everyone/everything that was important to normal Steve's life had a sinister Hydra counterpart (Bucky = Zemo, Erskine = Zola, the poor and bad background/military = nice Hydra school life), so since Steve's mother was the most important person in his early life and is the reason that he is who he is, Elisa was an OC created to function as Stevil's mother. Because of how she looks and how she was shown to have higher power, I like to imagine she's what a grown up Kobik would look like. Essentially, she's like Kobik's self-insert in the new history she accidentally created.

I buy that theory. I don't get why Nostradamus was involved or why Zemo didn't remember any of this, though. a lot of moving parts in this new reality. doesn't help that there wasn't any interaction between Elisa and Kobik.

[Michael Watkins]

Franklin, no. Molecule Man, who's powers they used, yes.

And to answer your last question: Because the 'simulation' took a life of it's own. It's like a game of Sims. You program a sim. You even give it it's personality traits. You create the people in it's life. But if you put it on auto run and give your Sim a measure of freewill so they can operate without you having to dictate their every move, they start to do things on their own. Hyda!Cap is nothing but a giant game of Sims.

that just makes me think that the current Steve Rogers is a sim construct with free will. the sim was created to steer Steve Rogers towards Hydra. you wouldn't need to do all of that unless Stevil IS Steve. and I reread the final showdown between the two last night. current Steve Rogers pretty much said that it was up in the air which reality was real.

[capandkirby]

that just makes me think that the current Steve Rogers is a sim construct with free will. the sim was created to steer Steve Rogers towards Hydra. you wouldn't need to do all of that unless Stevil IS Steve. and I reread the final showdown between the two last night. current Steve Rogers pretty much said that it was up in the air which reality was real.

No, because the current Steve Rogers had a real life. Hydra!Steve's entire history was made up and given to him in a blink of an eye. He's a novel that Red Skull and Kobik outlined out one night over tea and biscuits and then brought to life.

Listen, I'm going to be quite clear, there is no way I'm changing my mind on this. I realize you have a thing for Spencer and that you liked Secret Empire and are desperately hoping it will be referenced from now until the end of time. And that's entirely valid... for you. But your way is NOT how I interpreted the story, nor how Marvel comics has interpreted it since it happened. They've stated, quite clearly, in several sources since then, that the current Steve is the real Steve. So, that's that.

[Snoop Dogg]

I buy that theory. I don't get why Nostradamus was involved or why Zemo didn't remember any of this, though. a lot of moving parts in this new reality. doesn't help that there wasn't any interaction between Elisa and Kobik.

Hickman Secret Warriors references + Zemo just wants friends

[Michael Watkins]

No, because the current Steve Rogers had a real life. Hydra!Steve's entire history was made up and given to him in a blink of an eye.

so it's the speed that you take issue with? it took several issues to tell Stevil's backstory. and your Steve's story was told in similar fashion (only through flashbacks). so, in effect, both of them had their history given to them in a blink of an eye.

Listen, I'm going to be quite clear, there is no way I'm changing my mind on this.

I enjoy talking about this. convincing you isn't a goal. i'm not sure that i would even like that.

I realize you have a thing for Spencer and that you liked Secret Empire and are desperately hoping it will be referenced from now until the end of time. And that's entirely valid... for you. But your way is NOT how I interpreted the story, nor how Marvel comics has interpreted it since it happened. They've stated, quite clearly, in several sources since then, that the current Steve is the real Steve. So, that's that.

but they also said that Stevil was real Steve (it was the source of much online angst). and they aren't mutually exclusive in this case. the cosmic cube has made two Steve Rogers.