Steve Rogers: Captain America Appreciation 2019

[Michael Watkins]

Hickman Secret Warriors references + Zemo just wants friends

he must if he got a chest tattoo for an organization he wasn't really affiliated with. he certainly wasn't pro-Hydra as a Thunderbolt. and he had plenty of "friends" to choose from (hellstrom, satannish, fixer, moonstone, most of pleasant hill, etc). for a villain with a purple sock over his face, he's quite the gadfly.

[capandkirby]

so it's the speed that you take issue with? it took several issues to tell Stevil's backstory. and your Steve's story was told in similar fashion (only through flashbacks). so, in effect, both of them had their history given to them in a blink of an eye.



I enjoy talking about this. convincing you isn't a goal. i'm not sure that i would even like that.



but they also said that Stevil was real Steve (it was the source of much online angst). and they aren't mutually exclusive in this case. the cosmic cube has made two Steve Rogers.

Here's how I would see it, were any of this to happen to me. I was born. I lived. I knocked out a tooth learning to ride a bike as a kid. I hated math until I had that one high school teacher that was excellent at teaching and here I am decades later working in stem. My dad bought me my first comic. I've been reading them ever since. Cap was one of the few things we still had in common, one of the few things we could still talk about, during my rebellious teenage emo phase. As a result, I'm more cautious on a bike, though I still love to ride, Cap has a place of great nostalgia in my heart, and I do math for fun. These experiences, they were real and they make me who I am. Through the process of neurons firing in a certain pattern, these experiences are now stored permanently in the cortex of my brain, to the point that, if triggered by an experience similar to my existing memories, my brain will automatically run a comparison and recall, and that recall will greatly influence how I respond to the new event. Something will 'taste like chicken' only if the person doing the eating has actually tasted chicken. Children will figure out a stove is hot, and know to avoid it in the future, if they accidentally touch one and experience the pain of a minor finger burn. Hydra!Cap did not have a real life. It was made up. He didn't live that childhood. It was given to him. There is a difference between reading a textbook on events that happened and actually experiencing them, for real, because our experiences become a part of us, they are there, stored forever in the cortex, along with the sight, small, taste and feel of the event. None of hydra!Cap's life was real: Elisa's influence, the hydra boarding school, Sarah dying at an earlier time in Steve's life, none of that actually happened. You're comparing what was essentially a program written to make an evil version of Steve, versus a life really lived. At least in Franklin/Reed/Molecule Man's restored version of the 616 Steve Rogers was raised by Sarah Rogers on the Lower East Side, which was the original Steve Rogers' reality. Original!Steve wasn't raised by Elisa and sent to a hydra boarding school, they have different libraries using different references (re:memories) in their cortexes. Even *if* you don't consider anyone in the 616 their 'real' versions anymore, at least they are a closer approximation of the original heroes than what the cube did, so their responses to new stimuli will be similar enough because the memories are similar enough. Hydra!Cap was not similar, he was a 180.

And you're forgetting one important detail. Coates, himself, is writing hydra!Cap as the 'mystic spawn of the cosmic cube' and the current Steve as the real!Steve:

CoatesCap2.jpg

[jackolover]

somewhat disproven when Hydra-Cap tossed him out of a window.

The Red Skull is always there. He never dies.

[theoneandonly]

Hydra cap and Mike Murdock will have a lot to talk about if they meet sometime.

[Michael Watkins]

Here's how I would see it, were any of this to happen to me. I was born. I lived. I knocked out a tooth learning to ride a bike as a kid. I hated math until I had that one high school teacher that was excellent at teaching and here I am decades later working in stem. My dad bought me my first comic. I've been reading them ever since. Cap was one of the few things we still had in common, one of the few things we could still talk about, during my rebellious teenage emo phase. As a result, I'm more cautious on a bike, though I still love to ride, Cap has a place of great nostalgia in my heart, and I do math for fun. These experiences, they were real and they make me who I am. Through the process of neurons firing in a certain pattern, these experiences are now stored permanently in the cortex of my brain, to the point that, if triggered by an experience similar to my existing memories, my brain will automatically run a comparison and recall, and that recall will greatly influence how I respond to the new event. Something will 'taste like chicken' only if the person doing the eating has actually tasted chicken. Children will figure out a stove is hot, and know to avoid it in the future, if they accidentally touch one and experience the pain of a minor finger burn. Hydra!Cap did not have a real life. It was made up. He didn't live that childhood. It was given to him. There is a difference between reading a textbook on events that happened and actually experiencing them, for real, because our experiences become a part of us, they are there, stored forever in the cortex, along with the sight, small, taste and feel of the event. None of hydra!Cap's life was real: Elisa's influence, the hydra boarding school, Sarah dying at an earlier time in Steve's life, none of that actually happened. You're comparing what was essentially a program written to make an evil version of Steve, versus a life really lived. At least in Franklin/Reed/Molecule Man's restored version of the 616 Steve Rogers was raised by Sarah Rogers on the Lower East Side, which was the original Steve Rogers' reality. Original!Steve wasn't raised by Elisa and sent to a hydra boarding school, they have different libraries using different references (re:memories) in their cortexes. Even *if* you don't consider anyone in the 616 their 'real' versions anymore, at least they are a closer approximation of the original heroes than what the cube did, so their responses to new stimuli will be similar enough because the memories are similar enough. Hydra!Cap was not similar, he was a 180

so what you're saying is that we don't agree. not sure what the picture is supposed to prove. isn't that Steve narrating? he even says "that's the story we tell" as if he's not sure.

[capandkirby]

so what you're saying is that we don't agree. not sure what the picture is supposed to prove. isn't that Steve narrating? he even says "that's the story we tell" as if he's not sure.

The panel referred to Hyda!Cap as the "mystic spawn of the cosmic cube" re: hydra!Cap did not have a real life. He was spawned from the cube. As I keep saying.

"That's the only story we tell" was referring to the 'Steve Rogers is the only living super soldier' claim, which Steve knows is untrue and goes on to give examples.

[Michael Watkins]

The panel referred to Hyda!Cap as the "mystic spawn of the cosmic cube" re: hydra!Cap did not have a real life. He was spawned from the cube. As I keep saying.

"That's the only story we tell" was referring to the 'Steve Rogers is the only living super soldier' claim, which Steve knows is untrue and goes on to give examples.

still. it's from Steve Rogers perspective. how is this proof that Hydra-Cap is fake? doesn't that seem like a conflict of interest to you? what do you think it'd say if Hydra-Cap was narrating?

[capandkirby]

still. it's from Steve Rogers perspective. how is this proof that Hydra-Cap is fake? doesn't that seem like a conflict of interest to you? what do you think it'd say if Hydra-Cap was narrating?

Hydra!Cap would be stupid to deny that he did not exist until Avengers: Stand-Off, where he came to be because the cosmic cube 'programmed' him into existence. I mean, if I found out I owe my existence to a seven-year-old with unlimited power who made the mistake of going to Red Skull for bedtime stories, then I would be having a bit of an existential crises. Especially if I was cognizant when Kobik said this:

Kobik.jpg

Panel from Secret Empire #10. Even to Kobik Hydra!Steve was a fail. And she returned the rightful history, the real one, the one that had been 'corrupted' by bringing Hydra!Steve into existence, something she had to fix.

But regardless, Steve via Coates is not the only one saying it. Marvel has addressed the issue numerous times in other runs the past year, and all references have claimed the same thing: Hydra!Cap is not real.

[Michael Watkins]

Hydra!Cap would be stupid to deny that he did not exist until Avengers: Stand-Off, where he came to be because the cosmic cube 'programmed' him into existence. I mean, if I found out I owe my existence to a seven-year-old with unlimited power who made the mistake of going to Red Skull for bedtime stories, then I would be having a bit of an existential crises. Especially if I was cognizant when Kobik said this:

Panel from Secret Empire #10. Even to Kobik Hydra!Steve was a fail. And she returned the rightful history, the real one, the one that had been 'corrupted' by bringing Hydra!Steve into existence, something she had to fix.

But regardless, Steve via Coates is not the only one saying it. Marvel has addressed the issue numerous times in other runs the past year, and all references have claimed the same thing: Hydra!Cap is not real.

Kobik has the intellect of a child. Madame Hydra, an adult, said that reality had been corrupted to erase the real history. it's why Steve was tasked with finding the shards of the cosmic cube; to put things right.

[capandkirby]

Kobik has the intellect of a child. Madame Hydra, an adult, said that reality had been corrupted to erase the real history. it's why Steve was tasked with finding the shards of the cosmic cube; to put things right.

Madam Hydra was part of the cube's altered history, aka not a legit source of information. All that she said was disproved by the end of Secret Empire, like in the panels I posted above.

[Michael Watkins]

Madam Hydra was part of the cube's altered history,

where's your proof?

[capandkirby]

where's your proof?

I gave you proof.

Kobik.jpg

[capandkirby]

And here's another one. From Secret Empire #10, where Kobik admitting to 'making' Hydra!Cap and messing up...

Kobik2.jpg

[Michael Watkins]

I gave you proof.

Kobik.jpg

Madame Hydra is nowhere to be seen in that. and, if she undid her mistake, why is Stevil still here? why was the wreckage from the bomb blast still there? why isn't Steve old?

[capandkirby]

Madame Hydra is nowhere to be seen in that. and, if she undid her mistake, why is Stevil still here? why was the wreckage from the bomb blast still there? why isn't Steve old?

Oh but here she is, where the narrative stating boldly that she's a lying, liar, who lies and that her version of things was, wait for it... a pack of lies...

madamhydra.jpg

To answer your other questions, re: Stevil being left alive and nothing reverting back to pre-Secret Empire was actually answered in the comic, itself...

kobik3.jpg