Steve Rogers: Captain America Appreciation 2019

[Snoop Dogg]

steve is good boi

[capandkirby]

steve is good boi

This about sums it up.

[capandkirby]

Apparently Miller when he was planning that Holy Terror abomination tried to pitch a Captain America project to Marvel but thankfully people turned him down.

Oh dear god, really?! I have never been more grateful to the Marvel staff for saying no in my life. Millar, you can just keep 20 feet away from Steve at all times, please and thank you. Your Ultimates run was bad enough.

...edited to add, never mind, I just realized you meant Miller, not Millar (read what you were saying too fast and didn't process it correctly). I need more coffee. Either would have been terrible though. I stick by that. No thanks and I'm grateful to Marvel for turning it down.

[Michael Watkins]

Boi is slang within LGBT and butch and femme communities for a person's sexual or gender identities. In some lesbian communities, there is an increasing acceptance of variant gender expression, as well as allowing people to identify as a boi.

[capandkirby]

Boi is slang within LGBT and butch and femme communities for a person's sexual or gender identities. In some lesbian communities, there is an increasing acceptance of variant gender expression, as well as allowing people to identify as a boi.

I mean, Gruenwald almost had Steve turned into a woman, so he does have some estrogen inside him, so it still fits. Steve Rogers is a lesbian (or bi, he could be bi).

SteveGruenwald.JPG

...I could never figure out that, when Nightshade stripped Steve down for this procedure, she left the cowl on. It's weird.

[CentralPower]

To be honest, a "New deal democrat" would, conceivably be on the right today on a number of issues, which Coates has discussed and mentioned in his non-fiction essays. I

Precisely.

I don't see Captain America as being either liberal or conservative. He is broadly a fighter of super-villains and conspiracies and so on.

Not a bad hook. Captain America as an icon of a properly non-partisan Executive Branch. Conservatives tend to be Constitutional Constructionists, which means that a conservative could write this idea. (Or, a non-partisan writer could make a conservative argument.)

To change that flies in the face of who we know Steve Rogers to be (it's no coincidence that every time he's given up the mantle of his own volition it has been during a Republican term, re: Nomad happened during the Nixon administration and The Captain happened during the Reagan administration).

If that does not show naked partisanship at the editorial level, I do not know what does.

The republicans are not entitled to having a comic catered specifically to them.

But, liberals are entitled to a comic for them? Conservatives should not be able to write comics that articulate their beliefs? (That sounds like....censorship.)


I am saying this as a lefty who lives in a blue state. Political bubbles are dangerous.

Oh dear god, really?! I have never been more grateful to the Marvel staff for saying no in my life. Millar, you can just keep 20 feet away from Steve at all times, please and thank you. Your Ultimates run was bad enough.

Millar also wrote one of the smartest Superman stories of all time ("Red Son").

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Not a bad hook. Captain America as an icon of a properly non-partisan Executive Branch. Conservatives tend to be Constitutional Constructionists, which means that a conservative could write this idea. (Or, a non-partisan writer could make a conservative argument.)

We also forget that conservativism used to mean something quite different. You used to have Rockefeller Republicans and so on. And even now you have pockets, Clint Eastwood for instance is a Republican but he was a vocal opponent of the Iraq War and the War in Afghanistan and he appeared with Sean Penn to denounce it, and he's worked with actors of liberal bent in his movies. He's also in favor of gay marriage and LGBT rights and supports gun control. So Captain America being friendly to gay rights as he was in the '80s or enlightened about stuff doesn't necessarily mean he'd be de-facto liberal or conservative. We forget that the Mayor of New York during the '30s, Fiorello LaGuardia was a Republican and an ally of Roosevelt and FDR and was a liberal-leaning figure.

But, liberals are entitled to a comic for them? Conservatives should not be able to write comics that articulate their beliefs? (That sounds like....censorship.)

If there is an artist or writer with enough talent and a pitch that the editorial would agree with, then I am sure they can write Captain America with a subtle conservative bent. Editorial isn't interested in pushing any particular political agenda, they are interested in hooks and stuff. Like you know Frank Miller in Daredevil Born Again presented a view of Captain America that people of any political idea can accept and share. And I think that also applies to Captain America in the Civil War tie-ins, i.e. JMS' Amazing Spider-Man where Captain America gives that famous "you move" speech. Even Alan Moore, a left-wing anarchist created in Rorschach a right-winger who was charismatic and compelling. So much so that a Democrat Representative quotes Rorschach's "You're locked here with me" even if Rorschach or Kovacs would absolutely not support her.

Millar also wrote one of the smartest Superman stories of all time ("Red Son").

Sorry, I disagree with that. I generally hate most of Mark Millar's stuff with the exception of Marvel Knights: Spider-Man. But Red Son especially is pretty bad. Interesting premise and concept but just a total failure in imagination and execution.

[capandkirby]

Precisely. But, liberals are entitled to a comic for them? Conservatives should not be able to write comics that articulate their beliefs? (That sounds like....censorship.)

No one is entitled to anything. That said, predominantly, Cap writers have been liberal. Waid is a VERY outspoken liberal. As is Stern. And Coates, well, he's written several books on the subject, it goes without saying. Whatever Spencer's past politics were, he was a supporter of Hilary's 2016 nomination. Englehart, liberal. DeMatteis, liberal and a pacifist. Gruenwald, I'm not entirely certain, but he had Steve and a snake version of Reagan get into fisticuffs once (key words here being "snake version of Reagan") and he gave Steve a romantic partner who was a reformed criminal, so I'm going to go with liberal. Why should Marvel have to change that streak? The answer? They don't. They are under no obligation to be bi-partisan. None. If they associate Steve as a liberal, and it's clear they do, then that's that. They don't HAVE to do anything, including hire a conservative writer just because Captain America hasn't had one (and thank god for that).

And for the record, the only reason they attempted to keep Steve's (or ANY superhero's) politics on the down-low in the past, like the What If for Captain America #250 where Steve ran for president on a third party ticket, was because the Comics Code of Authority would not let the heroes outright state one way or another, the writers had to think of creative ways of hiding their politics, like having Steve fight Reagan-the-snake. But the Comics Code of Authority is gone, it disbanded in 2001. Thank god. And Marvel is no longer limited by them.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

No one is entitled to anything. That said, predominantly, Cap writers have been liberal. Waid is a VERY outspoken liberal. As is Stern. And Coates, well, he's written several books on the subject, it goes without saying. Whatever Spencer's past politics were, he was a supporter of Hilary's 2016 nomination. Englehart, liberal. DeMatteis, liberal and a pacifist. Gruenwald, I'm not entirely certain, but he had Steve and a snake version of Reagan get into fisticuffs once (key words here being "snake version of Reagan") and he gave Steve a romantic partner who was a reformed criminal, so I'm going to go with liberal. Why should Marvel have to change that streak? The answer? They don't. They are under no obligation to be bi-partisan. None. If they associate Steve as a liberal, and it's clear they do, then that's that. They don't HAVE to do anything, including hire a conservative writer just because Captain America hasn't had one (and thank god for that).

And for the record, the only reason they attempted to keep Steve's (or ANY superhero's) politics on the down-low in the past, like the What If for Captain America #250 where Steve ran for president on a third party ticket, was because the Comics Code of Authority would not let the heroes outright state one way or another, the writers had to think of creative ways of hiding their politics, like having Steve fight Reagan-the-snake. But the Comics Code of Authority is gone, it disbanded in 2001. Thank god. And Marvel is no longer limited by them.

Also remember that Captain America used to be a wingnut, a legit commie-smasher in the post-war era. And that version of the character didn't produce any good stories. And then McCarthyism fell by the wayside and was discredited. Jack Kirby and Joe Simon made The Fighting American, a Cap knock-off for a rival company into a spoof of McCarthyism. And during the Marvel era, Kirby and Lee invented the whole "out of time" thing precisely to bury the post-war wingnut Cap. They basically told readers that the Cap since World War II was a fake, which Englehart confirmed. The real Cap, the one who punched Hitler in the face, was preserved and unmoored from open partisanship but coded after that to be a little left of center.

Maybe Marvel are avoiding a "conservative Cap" because they did it once before and it wasn't funny the first time.

[capandkirby]

Also remember that Captain America used to be a wingnut, a legit commie-smasher in the post-war era. And that version of the character didn't produce any good stories. And then McCarthyism fell by the wayside and was discredited. Jack Kirby and Joe Simon made The Fighting American, a Cap knock-off for a rival company into a spoof of McCarthyism. And during the Marvel era, Kirby and Lee invented the whole "out of time" thing precisely to bury the post-war wingnut Cap. They basically told readers that the Cap since World War II was a fake, which Englehart confirmed. The real Cap, the one who punched Hitler in the face, was preserved and unmoored from open partisanship but coded after that to be a little left of center.

Maybe Marvel are avoiding a "conservative Cap" because they did it once before and it wasn't funny the first time.

Ah, 50's Cap. William Burnside. Englehart was a freakin genius with that move. You know I read somewhere that the writers of the Cap MCU films briefly toyed with the idea of bringing William Burnside into the MCU (as an antagonist for Steve). We were robbed. Two-fold, actually, because with Burnside, we would have also received Monroe.

[Huntsman Spider]

Ah, 50's Cap. William Burnside. Englehart was a freakin genius with that move. You know I read somewhere that the writers of the Cap MCU films briefly toyed with the idea of bringing William Burnside into the MCU (as an antagonist for Steve). We were robbed. Two-fold, actually, because with Burnside, we would have also received Monroe.

And then 50s Cap ended up becoming a legitimate fascist, partly due to being unable (or unwilling) to accept and adapt to changed mores in the contemporary era and partly due to a flawed recreation of the Super-Soldier Serum driving him nuts. Of course, the MCU explanation for what the Super-Soldier Serum enhances and brings out in people --- "good becomes great, bad becomes worse" --- could just as easily account for 50s Cap's psychological degeneration. That said, his last appearance was by Ed Brubaker, if I recall correctly, with Steve visiting 50s Cap who was bedridden from the cumulative negative physical toll of the flawed Super-Soldier Serum on his body. I thought it was a good acknowledgement of the tragedy of William Burnside, that a man who just wanted to be like his hero, but couldn't entirely separate his admiration, if not idolization, of said hero from his own character flaws, turned out the way he did.

[capandkirby]

And then 50s Cap ended up becoming a legitimate fascist, partly due to being unable (or unwilling) to accept and adapt to changed mores in the contemporary era and partly due to a flawed recreation of the Super-Soldier Serum driving him nuts. Of course, the MCU explanation for what the Super-Soldier Serum enhances and brings out in people --- "good becomes great, bad becomes worse" --- could just as easily account for 50s Cap's psychological degeneration. That said, his last appearance was by Ed Brubaker, if I recall correctly, with Steve visiting 50s Cap who was bedridden from the cumulative negative physical toll of the flawed Super-Soldier Serum on his body. I thought it was a good acknowledgement of the tragedy of William Burnside, that a man who just wanted to be like his hero, but couldn't entirely separate his admiration, if not idolization, of said hero from his own character flaws, turned out the way he did.

Yes, I know the exact issue you're talking about! It was Brubaker's last issue of Cap. Captain America vol. 6, issue #19. It is actually my favorite thing Brubaker wrote... well, tied with Steve Rogers: Super Soldier, anyway. Really deep profound look at both Steve and Burnside. With Burnside's version of the serum, they forgot the vita-rays, which caused the deterioration.

Anyway, there is some great, really psychologically meaty things in that issue, particularly in understanding Steve...

Capvol6.jpg
Capvol6(2).jpg

[capandkirby]

Damn. Issue #12 is now pushed back, as well. Although, that was a given considering every issue since #7 has been. Probably has to do with the artist switching from Yu to Kubert.

[Huntsman Spider]

Yes, I know the exact issue you're talking about! It was Brubaker's last issue of Cap. Captain America vol. 6, issue #19. It is actually my favorite thing Brubaker wrote... well, tied with Steve Rogers: Super Soldier, anyway. Really deep profound look at both Steve and Burnside. With Burnside's version of the serum, they forgot the vita-rays, which caused the deterioration.

Anyway, there is some great, really psychologically meaty things in that issue, particularly in understanding Steve...

Capvol6.jpg
Capvol6(2).jpg

Damn. Issue #12 is now pushed back, as well. Although, that was a given considering every issue since #7 has been. Probably has to do with the artist switching from Yu to Kubert.

Thanks for reminding me of the specific issue number and volume.

And yeah, that does suck. Having read Winter In America, I came away thinking, "This is what should've immediately come out of the gate following Secret Empire," but given all the negative publicity and ill will generated by that event, I understood why Marvel wanted to ease us back into good old Steve Rogers before putting us (and him) through the wringer again. That said, I will be waiting for Captain of Nothing when that arc comes out in full.

[jackolover]

spoilers:

You know how we have both Steve and Stevil appearing here? I bet this Dryad Character is a younger Sharon Carter.

end of spoilers

What about the three glowing green balls?

Two months have passed in this book since Steve was imprisoned. Where does War of Realms fit in here?