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  1. #841
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Been on vacation the past six days, so I'm a little late in replying to this but yes, I agree, Amazing Spider-Man #537 is one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) Steve Rogers cameos of all-time. Straczynski is welcome to write Cap anytime he wants as far as I'm concerned. In fact, he continues to nail Steve to this day, and can do it with just one line...

    Indeed. I would agree with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Interesting tidbit brought up in today's Captain Marvel (hear me out, yes it does involve Steve, thus my bringing it up in this thread). Apparently SHIELD, unbeknownst to the Avengers, has/had clones of them (and Carol knew about it, for all that she clearly didn't approve). Considering Steve's ongoing issues/trauma associated with this sort of thing (hydra!Cap, Weapons Plus, Red Skull's essence inhibiting an empty clone made from Steve Rogers' DNA in Gruenwald's run, take your pick of traumatic experiences) I can't imagine he's going to be especially thrilled to find this out.



    I do have a couple of questions here that maybe someone can answer? As far as I'm aware SHIELD is still, technically, disbanded, right? So they must have done this before Secret Empire and yet it's the current Avenger's line-up that is cloned, a line-up that happened post-Secret Empire? Is there something I'm missing here?

    Be that as it may... that these clones exist and the DNA of Steve, Thor, Tony, Jen, T'Challa, et al, is out there and being harnessed, does have interesting implications given the current state of the Marvel Universe.
    I think a lot of these superheroes would end up needing to talk with Spider-Man, who probably has the most personal experience with being cloned. That said, whoever was behind these clones would've most likely replicated every/any Avenger whose DNA they had archived for this Project Gemini (if I have the name right), so it's probably more than just the current team of Avengers they've got in reserve. Of course, given that Civil War hinged on a defective cyborg clone of Thor as a weapon for Iron Man's pro-registration forces, methinks Thor's going to seriously want to "have words with thee." As for the implications, I'm thinking this is some kind of shady government initiative to have its own team of US-loyal Avengers in the event the current Squadron Supreme of America in Jason Aaron's Avengers doesn't work out.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  2. #842
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    This issues art; holy moly. Can we get a consistent artist on a flagship book written by Ta-Nehisi Coates

  3. #843
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Yeah, no idea what it could be. I guess we'll find out soon enough, though!

    As for today's issue, it was another solid entry in this run. It's hard not to sound like a broken record but, boy, Coates really excels at writing Cap.

    I liked that the Scourge storyline made some real forward progress here and that we can see this isn't going to be dragged out. While, like you, I was also expecting Scourge to be someone we already knew, I wasn't unhappy at all with the reveal. There's plenty of potential with Diaz, which I hope Coates will delve into.

    As a fan of this run, the rumors that Coates will be staying on with the 2020 relaunch suits me fine. I just hope they get an A-list artist to join the book. Losing Yu and Kubert sucked and while the current artist is doing ok, I think Cap deserves a bigger name. As good as the current arc is, I can only imagine how much more punch it'd have if Yu or Kubert were still around to bring it to life.
    Coates is staying? Wonderful! Glad to hear it. Like you I've really enjoyed this run and look forward to see the next arc. He's been doing good things with this book and I love that he has clearly done his research. Scourge. Bernie. Walker. I halfway expect a resurrected Burnside to appear at one point (which I wouldn't complain about, because while yes, Burnside was a couple - dozen - cherries short of a fruitcake, he's an interesting antagonist).

    Quote Originally Posted by Huntsman Spider View Post
    I think a lot of these superheroes would end up needing to talk with Spider-Man, who probably has the most personal experience with being cloned. That said, whoever was behind these clones would've most likely replicated every/any Avenger whose DNA they had archived for this Project Gemini (if I have the name right), so it's probably more than just the current team of Avengers they've got in reserve. Of course, given that Civil War hinged on a defective cyborg clone of Thor as a weapon for Iron Man's pro-registration forces, methinks Thor's going to seriously want to "have words with thee." As for the implications, I'm thinking this is some kind of shady government initiative to have its own team of US-loyal Avengers in the event the current Squadron Supreme of America in Jason Aaron's Avengers doesn't work out.
    The interesting thing here is how clones and genetic engineering are such a prevalent theme in Marvel right now, across the spectrum. I mean, technically it's always been a thing, we have numerous stories revolving around it, but there are so many books dealing with it right now, all simultaneously, that its either leading somewhere or a sign that the house of ideas is out of ideas. And if it's not clones, then its genetic engineering. You have Roxxon going nuts on the genetic engineering. Namor dabbing in it, too (albeit under extreme duress). The X-Men making clones (so I hear, not reading them though so I can't verify). We had the recent Weapons Plus Wolverine/Cap team-up story, so more genetic engineering, there. Coates Cap run started with an army of Nuke clones. Stark doubting his humanity and believing himself to be a clone (that he made of himself). He also brought Rhodey back as a clone. Natasha is a clone and she shut down the Red Room's cloning program. Just wandering if this is all leading to something. Marvel's version of a clone war or something. We had that long thread speculating on whether Marvel would be dumb enough to pit any of their franchises against each other again in another 'vs' event but maybe the worry was misplaced and what we're really going to get (if we get anything of this nature at all) is an expanded version of something like what happened in the comic Infinity War (re: that time when Magus created evil doppelgangers of superheroes and villains and the Marvel Universe briefly fought... itself). The last issue of Secret Empire on steroids, basically. So yeah, like you suggested, the government doesn't like that the Avengers essentially have freewill, what better way to get them under your thumb then to just... create your own? The problem with that being a) the serious ethics violations and b) as you pointed out Steve, Thor, Tony, Peter and Nat all have very personal reasons to be very upset and affronted by this development, beyond the obvious and c) what's to stop other nations from doing it, too. In one of the recent events, I forget which one, Danielle Cage's DNA was on sale at a black market auction block (for which Jess and Luke were, rightfully, pissed) so maybe this will be a (big) thing, soon. Some sort of Gattaca meets the Stepford Wives conglomeration.
    Last edited by capandkirby; 12-11-2019 at 05:56 PM.

  4. #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post

    I listened to an interview with Coates on Youtube recently, where for his last book (The Water Dancer), he mentioned he specifically sought out the advice of female editors on his portrayals of his female characters, so the fact that he's committed to learning and getting it right gives me hope that wherever the plot brings us in the Cap book regarding Sharon AND Peggy, he'll do it in a respectful manner.
    I've actually been very impressed with how well Coates has done with writing women. It's one of the things I've liked most about his run. Sharon is allowed to be both vulnerable, but also badass. He actually allowed her to emote about the trauma of the past few runs, which is something Sharon rarely is allowed to do in stories. (The pregnancy plot/how it ended was BAD, but it's even worse none of the characters have mentioned it again.) She's actually been driving a fair bit of the plot, as well, which I like a lot. So I have hopes he will write whatever comes next well for the ladies.

  5. #845
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    Also, i forgot to include this in my original post, but there's something tiny that really broke my immersion in this week's issue: Steve is on the run and wanted, right? People were going after him. Anyway, the Daughters of Liberty HQ is apparently the Carter Compound in Virginia, which means Steve has been chilling at his longterm girlfriend's family home, a place they've gone together to hang out at in the past, with said longterm girlfriend who is also underground with him, and no one has gone looking there? Did they think it was too obvious...?

  6. #846
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I've actually been very impressed with how well Coates has done with writing women. It's one of the things I've liked most about his run. Sharon is allowed to be both vulnerable, but also badass. He actually allowed her to emote about the trauma of the past few runs, which is something Sharon rarely is allowed to do in stories. (The pregnancy plot/how it ended was BAD, but it's even worse none of the characters have mentioned it again.) She's actually been driving a fair bit of the plot, as well, which I like a lot. So I have hopes he will write whatever comes next well for the ladies.
    Same. I've loved how he's portrayed Sharon thus far and agree he's done really well by her. And the Daughters of Liberty as a whole are badass. I'd love a team book of them. It's great that Misty is also getting a lot to do lately, too, she and Steve make an excellent team. So yes, Coates does good work (bless him). I'm relieved to hear he may be staying on for the impending relaunch.

  7. #847
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    Also, i forgot to include this in my original post, but there's something tiny that really broke my immersion in this week's issue: Steve is on the run and wanted, right? People were going after him. Anyway, the Daughters of Liberty HQ is apparently the Carter Compound in Virginia, which means Steve has been chilling at his longterm girlfriend's family home, a place they've gone together to hang out at in the past, with said longterm girlfriend who is also underground with him, and no one has gone looking there? Did they think it was too obvious...?
    LOL, I wondered that same thing! Nick Fury Jr. is really, super bad at his job if he truly hasn't found them yet. And Steve and Sharon are, apparently, really bad at safe-housing.

  8. #848
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Same. I've loved how he's portrayed Sharon thus far and agree he's done really well by her. And the Daughters of Liberty as a whole are badass. I'd love a team book of them. It's great that Misty is also getting a lot to do lately, too, she and Steve make an excellent team. So yes, Coates does good work (bless him). I'm relieved to hear he may be staying on for the impending relaunch.
    I would kill for a Daughters of Liberty book, but I would also kill for more female-led team books. Or female-led books. I did have a crack!theory that was essentially a de-aged Sharon Carter would be made Cap, and the next book would be Captain America and the Daughters of Liberty. Obviously, that won't happen, but it would be fun. And I am glad Coates may stay. He's getting better as a comic writer.

  9. #849
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Coates is staying? Wonderful! Glad to hear it. Like you I've really enjoyed this run and look forward to see the next arc. He's been doing good things with this book and I love that he has clearly done his research.
    I think he's probably just a fan and has a working knowledge of the book's history.

    As for Coates staying, it's just a rumor so anything's possible. Hoping it's true, though.

  10. #850
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    This issues art; holy moly. Can we get a consistent artist on a flagship book written by Ta-Nehisi Coates
    Yeah, say it louder so Marvel can hear you!

    As I said in my earlier post, this is my one gripe with the book at the moment.

    I don't think it's awful necessarily but Cap's book deserves more than just serviceable art and that's all it's been for a few issues now.

  11. #851
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    Coates is staying? Wonderful! Glad to hear it. Like you I've really enjoyed this run and look forward to see the next arc. He's been doing good things with this book and I love that he has clearly done his research. Scourge. Bernie. Walker. I halfway expect a resurrected Burnside to appear at one point (which I wouldn't complain about, because while yes, Burnside was a couple - dozen - cherries short of a fruitcake, he's an interesting antagonist).



    The interesting thing here is how clones and genetic engineering are such a prevalent theme in Marvel right now, across the spectrum. I mean, technically it's always been a thing, we have numerous stories revolving around it, but there are so many books dealing with it right now, all simultaneously, that its either leading somewhere or a sign that the house of ideas is out of ideas. And if it's not clones, then its genetic engineering. You have Roxxon going nuts on the genetic engineering. Namor dabbing in it, too (albeit under extreme duress). The X-Men making clones (so I hear, not reading them though so I can't verify). We had the recent Weapons Plus Wolverine/Cap team-up story, so more genetic engineering, there. Coates Cap run started with an army of Nuke clones. Stark doubting his humanity and believing himself to be a clone (that he made of himself). He also brought Rhodey back as a clone. Natasha is a clone and she shut down the Red Room's cloning program. Just wandering if this is all leading to something. Marvel's version of a clone war or something. We had that long thread speculating on whether Marvel would be dumb enough to pit any of their franchises against each other again in another 'vs' event but maybe the worry was misplaced and what we're really going to get (if we get anything of this nature at all) is an expanded version of something like what happened in the comic Infinity War (re: that time when Magus created evil doppelgangers of superheroes and villains and the Marvel Universe briefly fought... itself). The last issue of Secret Empire on steroids, basically. So yeah, like you suggested, the government doesn't like that the Avengers essentially have freewill, what better way to get them under your thumb then to just... create your own? The problem with that being a) the serious ethics violations and b) as you pointed out Steve, Thor, Tony, Peter and Nat all have very personal reasons to be very upset and affronted by this development, beyond the obvious and c) what's to stop other nations from doing it, too. In one of the recent events, I forget which one, Danielle Cage's DNA was on sale at a black market auction block (for which Jess and Luke were, rightfully, pissed) so maybe this will be a (big) thing, soon. Some sort of Gattaca meets the Stepford Wives conglomeration.
    It was in Hunt for Wolverine: The Adamantium Agenda, where the New Avengers team (Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Iron Man, and Spider-Man, plus Laura Kinney) were trying to prevent someone from selling Logan's DNA on the black market and found out it was actually Dani's DNA on auction in the first issue. Of course, that led to the discovery of Mister Sinister's DNA archive of pretty much every mutant and nonmutant superhuman on Earth.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  12. #852
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I would kill for a Daughters of Liberty book, but I would also kill for more female-led team books. Or female-led books. I did have a crack!theory that was essentially a de-aged Sharon Carter would be made Cap, and the next book would be Captain America and the Daughters of Liberty. Obviously, that won't happen, but it would be fun. And I am glad Coates may stay. He's getting better as a comic writer.
    That's actually a good idea. During Bendis's last couple of years on Avengers, in the Heroic Age era, Mockingbird was given a cocktail of the Infinity Formula and Super Soldier Serum - the drugs that keep Nick Fury and Steve Rogers young and in peak physical condition. Would the same thing de-age Sharon back to her prime, as well as granting her Steve's powers? If there's someone other than Bucky and Falcon that could be a Captain America legacy, it's her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    I think he's probably just a fan and has a working knowledge of the book's history.

    As for Coates staying, it's just a rumor so anything's possible. Hoping it's true, though.
    We'll know when the solicits are out. February's #19 was the end of an arc, so the start of a new arc will be solicited. If it's still Coates, he's sticking around for at least another six months.
    Last edited by Digifiend; 12-11-2019 at 10:00 PM.
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  13. #853
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    I'm not... in love with the idea of de-aging and powering up Sharon. Coates addressed this issue on his Instagram early on...

    Sharon.jpg

    I agree with him and whoever advised him. There is a precedence in our society to consider any woman past her twenties as being past their prime, which is utter and complete bs (hell, I have more fun at 40 than I did at 20). I like that Sharon is older but can still hold her own. I like that Sharon's age is not important to Steve, who is now young again, but whom chose to stay with her and work on their relationship post Secret Empire because he loves her, and that fact is the only fact that matters to him. There are a lot of positive messages to be gained from Sharon staying exactly as is. That said, when Steve turned himself in at the beginning of the run, and gave the shield to Sharon, I was expecting her to act as Captain America in his steed while Bernie fought for his freedom and was surprised that didn't happen. I'm not prepared for another legacy character taking the mantle so soon after getting Steve back, he hasn't even gotten a full run yet (Waid's six issue mini doesn't count and neither does anything by Spencer, because that wasn't Steve-Steve), but I would have liked something like that, in that vein. Aka Steve still being alive and fighting to restore his good name while Sharon carried the shield for a bit. That would have been cool. Especially if Sharon did it as she is now.

  14. #854
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I'm not... in love with the idea of de-aging and powering up Sharon. Coates addressed this issue on his Instagram early on...

    Sharon.jpg

    I agree with him and whoever advised him. There is a precedence in our society to consider any woman past her twenties as being past their prime, which is utter and complete bs (hell, I have more fun at 40 than I did at 20). I like that Sharon is older but can still hold her own. I like that Sharon's age is not important to Steve, who is now young again, but whom chose to stay with her and work on their relationship post Secret Empire because he loves her, and that fact is the only fact that matters to him. There are a lot of positive messages to be gained from Sharon staying exactly as is. That said, when Steve turned himself in at the beginning of the run, and gave the shield to Sharon, I was expecting her to act as Captain America in his steed while Bernie fought for his freedom and was surprised that didn't happen. I'm not prepared for another legacy character taking the mantle so soon after getting Steve back, he hasn't even gotten a full run yet (Waid's six issue mini doesn't count and neither does anything by Spencer, because that wasn't Steve-Steve), but I would have liked something like that, in that vein. Aka Steve still being alive and fighting to restore his good name while Sharon carried the shield for a bit. That would have been cool. Especially if Sharon did it as she is now.
    I'm not against showing old ladies can still kick butt with the rest of them, but it just feels weird to me that Sharon acts and sounds like her younger self despite the older body, so it just feels superflous and random to me.

  15. #855
    All-New Member Thane's Avatar
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    What s best and most unique comics about Steven I should read?

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