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  1. #871
    Fantastic Member SpiderNerd's Avatar
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    My friend and I discuss the latest issue of Captain America on our podcast. Have a listen https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...s/id1482220681
    “Marvel Fan Rave Podcast” on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and more.

  2. #872
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post

    Also, I just remember that Bucky is ALSO in on the Peggy-twist in the comics. So Steve will probably have some words with him too.
    He probably will be mad at Bucky, too. I would. Because according to both the January and February solicitations, Steve ends up fighting Peggy (well, fighting everybody in the January solicit) which is something that could have been avoided.

    CAPTAIN AMERICA #18
    TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • JASON MASTERS (A) • Cover by ALEX ROSS
    MARVELS X VARIANT COVER BY ADAM KUBERT
    THE LEGEND OF STEVE continues!
    Cap vs Nick Fury! Cap vs The Dryad! The new Scourge vs everybody! And a heart-stopping climax that you’ll never forget!
    32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

    CAPTAIN AMERICA #19
    TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • JASON MASTERS (A) • Cover by ALEX ROSS
    GWEN STACY VARIANT COVER BY JUNGGEUN YOON
    THE LEGEND OF STEVE Concludes!
    Cap comes face-to-face with the Dryad and learns her game-changing true identity!
    32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

    I feel so sorry for Steve in this run. He spends a year with amnesia in the Vanishing Point only to find out that an evil duplicate using his face has committed untold atrocities in his absence, had done things Steve has fought against his entire life. When he comes back, everyone (besides Sharon and Bucky and the rest of the DoL) hates him. He's framed for a murder he didn't commit. His reputation is completely in the toilet. He's forced into a situation where he has no choice but to rely on others, and they're not being truthful with him. Talk about a bummer of a situation all around.

    Moreover, I'm not sure why Steve has had exactly zero cameos from any of his other friends in this book, it's sad and it's kinda glaring, plot-wise. Not even so much as a single panel mentioning someone called to wish him luck (though T'Challa was present earlier in the book giving Steve a hand, so that was nice). Given that Clint, the AI version of Tony and Sam fought so hard to find the missing cosmic cube pieces to restore the real Steve in Secret Empire, given the Generations issue where it seemed like Sam and Steve's friendship had been left intact after all was said and done, given that the real!Steve returned and was able to lift Mjolnir for real (and give it back to its rightful owner), given how the Invaders were the ones who plotted with Bucky on how to restore the real!Steve in Secret Empire: Brave New World, I'm a bit confused on why Sam, Clint, Tony, Thor, nor any of the Invaders haven't had so much as a mention in this book given that Steve is going through this extremely difficult time. He's completely isolated... except for the group lying to him. It's really very sad (and a strange editorial/writing choice... all of Steve's other books have had cameos from his other friends outside of Cap!fam. Hell, in Waid's short, six issue mini, immediately following Secret Empire, it mentioned Tony and had Wolverine on the road trailing after Steve).
    Last edited by capandkirby; 12-16-2019 at 09:12 AM.

  3. #873

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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post


    Moreover, I'm not sure why Steve has had exactly zero cameos from any of his other friends in this book, it's sad and it's kinda glaring, plot-wise. Not even so much as a single panel mentioning someone called to wish him luck (though T'Challa was present earlier in the book giving Steve a hand, so that was nice). Given that Clint, the AI version of Tony and Sam fought so hard to find the missing cosmic cube pieces to restore the real Steve in Secret Empire, given the Generations issue where it seemed like Sam and Steve's friendship had been left intact after all was said and done, given that the real!Steve returned and was able to lift Mjolnir for real (and give it back to its rightful owner), given how the Invaders were the ones who plotted with Bucky on how to restore the real!Steve in Secret Empire: Brave New World, I'm a bit confused on why Sam, Clint, Tony, Thor, nor any of the Invaders haven't had so much as a mention in this book given that Steve is going through this extremely difficult time. He's completely isolated... except for the group lying to him. It's really very sad (and a strange editorial/writing choice... all of Steve's other books have had cameos from his other friends outside of Cap!fam. Hell, in Waid's short, six issue mini, immediately following Secret Empire, it mentioned Tony and had Wolverine on the road trailing after Steve).
    I've actually spent most of the run wondering what the hell Sam is doing, because his absence has been jarring as well. I know it's an intentional choice on Coates' part to have Steve relying on the people -- honestly, the women -- around him, and while I like seeing the DOL in action, it just doesn't feel entirely organic in the grand history of the characters.

    There's a part of me that's also wondering what Peggy could have said to both Bucky and Sharon to get them to go along with the secrecy, as well. I can buy Sharon keeping it a secret, because of the spy thing, but also it's been written pretty clearly how she's always idolized her aunt so there's that family pull that might trump lover, especially since she's still recovering from the Secret Empire trauma. But I keep getting hung up on Bucky just rolling with it. Sure, he knew Peggy in the past and he seems pretty close with Sharon now per the Winter Solider run, but I can't see him just...agreeing without some pretty hard evidence that "yes, yes, this is for the best." His loyalty is more to Steve than them.

  4. #874
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I've actually spent most of the run wondering what the hell Sam is doing, because his absence has been jarring as well. I know it's an intentional choice on Coates' part to have Steve relying on the people -- honestly, the women -- around him, and while I like seeing the DOL in action, it just doesn't feel entirely organic in the grand history of the characters.

    There's a part of me that's also wondering what Peggy could have said to both Bucky and Sharon to get them to go along with the secrecy, as well. I can buy Sharon keeping it a secret, because of the spy thing, but also it's been written pretty clearly how she's always idolized her aunt so there's that family pull that might trump lover, especially since she's still recovering from the Secret Empire trauma. But I keep getting hung up on Bucky just rolling with it. Sure, he knew Peggy in the past and he seems pretty close with Sharon now per the Winter Solider run, but I can't see him just...agreeing without some pretty hard evidence that "yes, yes, this is for the best." His loyalty is more to Steve than them.
    SAME! And yes, it is very jarring. It's been this massive elephant in the room. And like I said, the Generations issue made it seem like Sam and Steve were still tight, having spent a life-time together and Sam retaining those memories, so (the Captain America Generations issue was pretty much Star Trek The Next Generation's "The Inner Light" repurposed to be about Steve and Sam)... I don't get it.

    As for Peggy, it is very weird that she talked Bucky into it, I agree. I do hope the explanation is good because right now it doesn't make sense at all. And why would Peggy engage Steve in combat, not once, but, apparently, twice (if the solicits are what they appear and there isn't a twist in this).

  5. #875

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    Maybe Peggy gained mind control powers to get them to do it on top of any shapeshifter powers that now have her looking like Hayley Atwell lol

  6. #876
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    Maybe Peggy gained mind control powers to get them to do it on top of any shapeshifter powers that now have her looking like Hayley Atwell lol
    LOL! Now that would be an explanation I could roll with.

  7. #877
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    He probably will be mad at Bucky, too. I would. Because according to both the January and February solicitations, Steve ends up fighting Peggy (well, fighting everybody in the January solicit) which is something that could have been avoided.

    CAPTAIN AMERICA #18
    TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • JASON MASTERS (A) • Cover by ALEX ROSS
    MARVELS X VARIANT COVER BY ADAM KUBERT
    THE LEGEND OF STEVE continues!
    Cap vs Nick Fury! Cap vs The Dryad! The new Scourge vs everybody! And a heart-stopping climax that you’ll never forget!
    32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

    CAPTAIN AMERICA #19
    TA-NEHISI COATES (W) • JASON MASTERS (A) • Cover by ALEX ROSS
    GWEN STACY VARIANT COVER BY JUNGGEUN YOON
    THE LEGEND OF STEVE Concludes!
    Cap comes face-to-face with the Dryad and learns her game-changing true identity!
    32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

    I feel so sorry for Steve in this run. He spends a year with amnesia in the Vanishing Point only to find out that an evil duplicate using his face has committed untold atrocities in his absence, had done things Steve has fought against his entire life. When he comes back, everyone (besides Sharon and Bucky and the rest of the DoL) hates him. He's framed for a murder he didn't commit. His reputation is completely in the toilet. He's forced into a situation where he has no choice but to rely on others, and they're not being truthful with him. Talk about a bummer of a situation all around.

    Moreover, I'm not sure why Steve has had exactly zero cameos from any of his other friends in this book, it's sad and it's kinda glaring, plot-wise. Not even so much as a single panel mentioning someone called to wish him luck (though T'Challa was present earlier in the book giving Steve a hand, so that was nice). Given that Clint, the AI version of Tony and Sam fought so hard to find the missing cosmic cube pieces to restore the real Steve in Secret Empire, given the Generations issue where it seemed like Sam and Steve's friendship had been left intact after all was said and done, given that the real!Steve returned and was able to lift Mjolnir for real (and give it back to its rightful owner), given how the Invaders were the ones who plotted with Bucky on how to restore the real!Steve in Secret Empire: Brave New World, I'm a bit confused on why Sam, Clint, Tony, Thor, nor any of the Invaders haven't had so much as a mention in this book given that Steve is going through this extremely difficult time. He's completely isolated... except for the group lying to him. It's really very sad (and a strange editorial/writing choice... all of Steve's other books have had cameos from his other friends outside of Cap!fam. Hell, in Waid's short, six issue mini, immediately following Secret Empire, it mentioned Tony and had Wolverine on the road trailing after Steve).
    It's as weird as the fact that practically every other book ignores Steve current status quo and just has him as normal Captain America.
    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    There's a part of me that's also wondering what Peggy could have said to both Bucky and Sharon to get them to go along with the secrecy, as well. I can buy Sharon keeping it a secret, because of the spy thing, but also it's been written pretty clearly how she's always idolized her aunt so there's that family pull that might trump lover, especially since she's still recovering from the Secret Empire trauma. But I keep getting hung up on Bucky just rolling with it. Sure, he knew Peggy in the past and he seems pretty close with Sharon now per the Winter Solider run, but I can't see him just...agreeing without some pretty hard evidence that "yes, yes, this is for the best." His loyalty is more to Steve than them.
    Did Bucky know Peggy? Whenever I read flashbacks to their time together in Paris (?) I don't remember Bucky showing up at all.

  8. #878
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's as weird as the fact that practically every other book ignores Steve current status quo and just has him as normal Captain America.
    I think the explanation for that one (though I could be wrong) is the same reason Steve is speaking in past-tense in the narration of the book. Meaning the events of Coates' run happened in the past, before the current run of Avengers (and everything else). The glitch in this, however, is that Ross appeared, alive, in Avengers at one point, early on. Maybe Coates' run happened between the Celestial Final Host and the Vampire Civil War. Or between the Vampire Civil War and the Namor thing. But if Cap is an active Avenger while all this is going on, that makes the fact that no one besides Bucky and the DoL are helping him even more sad.

    You're right that it's all very weird though. Aaron, Ewing and Zdarsky have all synchronized their books, in that events happening in Avengers, Invaders and Immortal Hulk have all been referenced in each book, but Cap is this standalone universe, currently.

    That said, Ewing, bless him, did reference Ross' murder in Immortal Hulk. That seems to be the only tie-in thus far.

  9. #879

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post

    Did Bucky know Peggy? Whenever I read flashbacks to their time together in Paris (?) I don't remember Bucky showing up at all.
    Maybe he didn't? I can't fully remember what's canon or not, because there are definitely some continuities when he did or knew of her. I just sort of assumed the whole WWII gang knew one another at some point, but maybe not. I know Sharon watched recordings of him at her aunt's, which was how she was able to recognize that his voice and the Winter Soldier's were one and the same.

  10. #880
    Aged Howler tliscord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I've actually been very impressed with how well Coates has done with writing women. It's one of the things I've liked most about his run. Sharon is allowed to be both vulnerable, but also badass. He actually allowed her to emote about the trauma of the past few runs, which is something Sharon rarely is allowed to do in stories. (The pregnancy plot/how it ended was BAD, but it's even worse none of the characters have mentioned it again.) She's actually been driving a fair bit of the plot, as well, which I like a lot. So I have hopes he will write whatever comes next well for the ladies.
    I agree with you, Coates has done a fine job of writing the women in this series. Clearly he is committed to acknowledging previous arcs including characters trying to process previous runs ... including Secret Empire and Remender’s run Dimension Z. For Sharon it’s certainly a lot to unpack. You referenced Brubaker’s run and some of his struggles depicting Sharon, especially her captivity as a femme fatale with Faustus and Skull. Still, my take away was how incredibly strong and independent she was portrayed at the time which included eventually shooting Lukin. Remarkable!

    Additional, Ed devoted 2 issues solely to Sharon’s story including her pain and angst over losing Steve, and to her final discovery of her miscarriage. Unfortunately that was never followed up, we never got that discussion we needed between them which I thought was sad and a missed opportunity. The other issue was volume 6 as Sharon fought and eventually outsmarted Machinesmith on the Quincarrier. Loved that moment she threatened mutual assured destruction for them both.

    As for Coates, nothing but love for depicting her strong self assurance and independence, and total respect for not fixing her age-wise. My heart longs for her to return from the nightmare of Dimension Z and Remender's portrayal, but I’m more than satisfied she’s a mainstay of this series. My impression here is Coates is taken their relationship to the next level. Sharon is comfortable keeping secrets from Steve, and I thought tacitly acknowledging her equal footing in their relationship. I suppose another writer might use this as a wedge to split the two, I read it as the next step in advancing their relationship to a more profound understanding of eachother .... and wouldn’t that be novel in a medium historically devoted to the male adolescent view. ( of which I was one many years ago ).
    Last edited by tliscord; 12-16-2019 at 08:39 PM.

  11. #881

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    Quote Originally Posted by tliscord View Post
    As for Coates, nothing but love for depicting her strong self assurance and independence, and total respect for not fixing her age-wise. My heart longs for her to return from the nightmare of Dimension Z and Remender's portrayal, but I’m more than satisfied she’s a mainstay of this series. My impression here is Coates is taken their relationship to the next level. Sharon is comfortable keeping secrets from Steve, and I thought tacitly acknowledging her equal footing in their relationship. I suppose another writer might use this as a wedge to split the two, I read it as the next step in advancing their relationship to a more profound understanding of eachother .... and wouldn’t that be novel in a medium historically devoted to the male adolescent view. ( of which I was one many years ago ).
    One thing I did think was interesting was that in an earlier issue, when they were arguing, Sharon mentioned something about sacrificing for her mission instead of her always sacrificing for hers. I thought that was actually a very adult and some relatable -- substitute 'career' for 'mission' -- argument to have. My husband and I have definitely had the "whose career wins" debate before. The whole 'career v relationship' was a problem in their early relationship, and it's what wrecked his engagement to Bernie. Sharon, in many ways, has taken a backseat to Steve over the years. Second-in-command to him at SHIELD, liaison on the Secret Avengers. Then Secret Empire wrecked her SHIELD career again. Part of me wonders if that isn't also an intentional framing device for Coates. It's not just about trust, but identity as well, and I wonder if he intends to maybe parallel that. Sharon and the DOL have been heavy drivers of the plot while Steve has essentially been along for the ride, and that's what Sharon's role has been for a lot of the past few runs.

    Or it's not that deep.

  12. #882
    The Professional Marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justanotherclassic View Post
    I've actually spent most of the run wondering what the hell Sam is doing, because his absence has been jarring as well. I know it's an intentional choice on Coates' part to have Steve relying on the people -- honestly, the women -- around him, and while I like seeing the DOL in action, it just doesn't feel entirely organic in the grand history of the characters.

    There's a part of me that's also wondering what Peggy could have said to both Bucky and Sharon to get them to go along with the secrecy, as well. I can buy Sharon keeping it a secret, because of the spy thing, but also it's been written pretty clearly how she's always idolized her aunt so there's that family pull that might trump lover, especially since she's still recovering from the Secret Empire trauma. But I keep getting hung up on Bucky just rolling with it. Sure, he knew Peggy in the past and he seems pretty close with Sharon now per the Winter Solider run, but I can't see him just...agreeing without some pretty hard evidence that "yes, yes, this is for the best." His loyalty is more to Steve than them.
    This right here. Keeping this a secret from Steve is a bad idea no matter what the reasoning is.

    Bucky was a secret(not his fault).

    Sharon was a secret.

    Now Peggy(and if the Daughters of Liberty knew that's more betrayal).

    Everyone he really cared about his died, come back and kept it a secret. Steve really has to start wondering who he can trust.


  13. #883
    Invincible Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by capandkirby View Post
    I think the explanation for that one (though I could be wrong) is the same reason Steve is speaking in past-tense in the narration of the book. Meaning the events of Coates' run happened in the past, before the current run of Avengers (and everything else). The glitch in this, however, is that Ross appeared, alive, in Avengers at one point, early on. Maybe Coates' run happened between the Celestial Final Host and the Vampire Civil War. Or between the Vampire Civil War and the Namor thing. But if Cap is an active Avenger while all this is going on, that makes the fact that no one besides Bucky and the DoL are helping him even more sad.
    Cap's solo probably takes place between the first two arcs of Aaron's Avengers. Carol grew out her hair (during a nine month timeskip in the first issue of her Life of Captain Marvel mini) at that point, so Steve's absence can slot in that same period.
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  14. #884
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marvell2100 View Post
    This right here. Keeping this a secret from Steve is a bad idea no matter what the reasoning is.

    Bucky was a secret(not his fault).

    Sharon was a secret.

    Now Peggy(and if the Daughters of Liberty knew that's more betrayal).

    Everyone he really cared about his died, come back and kept it a secret. Steve really has to start wondering who he can trust.

    That's a very good point. Steve has a history of the secrets people keep from him coming back around to bite him in the butt, either to the point where he is the one who has to fix the mess (Siege, to give one example, and the poor guy had JUST come back from the dead, talk about not getting any downtime to process things), or, the secrets themselves leave him emotionally devastated and extrapolate his serious (and yet untreated, see a therapist, Steve) case of Survivors Guilt, like your example of finding out that Bucky or Sharon were still alive, but endured untold torture in the interim.

    Another example that comes to mind is the Illuminati.

    But hell, even the SHRA, itself, qualifies. Steve was blindsided by Hill, and blindsided again by the fact that it devolved that quickly into SHIELD shooting at him for a law that hadn't even passed yet, it makes you wonder if the entirety of Civil War could have been avoided had the pro-registration side been more upfront about what was going on (and dealt with things in a more humane manner).

    The fact that Kobik was secretly meeting with the Red Skull while they hatched together this "ideal world" was a secret. Kobik herself referred to it as such.

    Pleasant Hill was a secret.

    The fact that Hill kept the cosmic cube around instead of destroying it like she was ordered to do, a secret.

    The rest of the Invaders kept a secret from Steve that, decades later, led to him having to invade the Kree homeworld to rescue Namor (Robinson's run).

    You know, in retrospect, now that I think of it, it's amazing Steve doesn't have more of a phobia against secrets being kept from him than he already does. What Peggy is having Bucky and Sharon do on her behalf - two of the people that Steve loves the most - is, in a way, kind of, well... cruel. I really, really hope she has solid reasoning. I trust that she must have, for Sharon and Bucky to go along with it.

  15. #885
    Mighty Member capandkirby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Cap's solo probably takes place between the first two arcs of Aaron's Avengers. Carol grew out her hair (during a nine month timeskip in the first issue of her Life of Captain Marvel mini) at that point, so Steve's absence can slot in that same period.
    Good point about Carol's hair. Didn't put that together before (in comparison to Steve's book) but you're right.

    ...makes me wonder... one of their friends and co-workers has been falsely accused of murder and was sent to be tortured by Strucker, of all people, and yet we've had not so much as a peep from the other Avengers?! Coates and Brevoort... why?

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