Steve Rogers: Captain America Appreciation 2019

[justanotherclassic]

Getting back to Sharon, I find it so interesting how Stan depicted her in those early Tales of Suspense stories. I’d not describe him as a mover or shaker in the early feminist movement but Sharon was clearly portrayed as devoted to her career .... despite Steve’s swooning. How funny that he was devastated by her decision not to marry him because she had a career. So interesting to reread those stories nowadays.

I have to say, reading '60s/'70s comics is so hard as a female reader because the writing isn't...great...for the female characters. Like old Fantastic Four stuff? Ouch. Poor Sue (maybe my all-time favorite Marvel woman) could barely function without Reed telling her what to do.

The old Cap stuff is similar in that regard -- look, there's no denying the framing of the Peggy/Sharon story was gross -- but I do like that Sharon had a firm resolve to her career. I think that aspect of her character is something that made writers like her and have her stick around/what prompted Wait to want to bring her back and Brubaker to make it one of his goals to get her back with Steve romantically. Also, Steve proposing to Sharon after knowing her like 3 days is not something that gets brought up enough for comedic purposes alone. I feel like this is something that he needs to get trolled about.

I’d go so far as to say a worthy replacement for the “ unseen one” ( thank you Jason Aaron). Wouldn’t mind Nick Sr showing up for after dinner aperitifs.

I miss OG Nick Fury so much. He had such a great dynamic with Steve, Sharon, and Bucky. In many ways, I feel like the CA comics lost a lot when he was written off for Synergy. Nick Fury Jr is just a sad shadow of both OG Fury and Ultimate!Fury.

Yeah that was never addressed. I was also terribly disappointed Brubaker glossed over Sharon’s miscarriage too. We were never privy to that conversation between Steve and Sharon ( c’mon it had to have happened, unless I suppose it’s yet another secret). Odd that Remender set up this weird dichotomy that involved Steve raising Ian initially, then Sharon raising him, both independent of each other. Just a really strange dynamic. I mean who thinks this stuff up? I really thought the loss of a pregnancy might be deep grist for the mill in any writer’s eyes but apparently Ed thought differently. On the flip side, Dimension Z has now officially overtaken Capwolf for me as the most oddly tangential run in Cap’s history.

I'm just...over miscarriages in comics, because they're almost always done for shock value and very little actual character development comes from it. I had heard that Brubaker wanted to bring it up again, but Editorial shot it down because it was "too sad" after everything, but that could just be a rumor. And the thing is: the miscarriage could have been an interesting character arc for Steve, because of what happened. It's pretty canon that he's thought/daydreamed/hallucinated about having kids with Sharon over the years, and then he almost had that only for the Skrull to attempt to use the baby for his weird body. During Remender's run, I recall seeming a few people speculate early on that Ian might have actually been that baby on the basis that it's not totally inconceivable in the land of comic books that they took out the fetus and decided to make it a test tube baby that Steve somehow stumbled upon. Obviously that didn't pan out.

Another weird thing that Remender set up that never got mentioned again? Sharon proposed to Steve in issue 1, when he thought she was dead Steve's internal narration referred to her as his fiance, and she came back and nothing. So, yeah, I'm chalking Dimension Z into a weird fever dream story.

[tliscord]

Yes, I totally get it. They were cringe worthy by today’s standards. To add to the miscarriage theme, yes, we never explored his response, additionally little from Sharon as well. We could infer her innate discipline allowed her to move on but it’s all conjecture. I was interested in how that would inform their relationship too. That very intimate trauma can have life altering effects.

Yes, never did get follow up on the marriage proposal. Still I think in this latest iteration their commitment seems genuine avoiding those typical tropes of envy which again harkens back to the fears of young adolescence.

[capandkirby]

Indeed. I had the same sentiment about the not-so-Superior Spider-Man, insofar as the Avengers apparently writing off "Spider-Man's" radical personality shift and the increasingly violent and amoral conduct accompanying that because they had bigger problems at the time. Come to think of it, though, in light of a lot of badness that's happened to various Avengers without the rest of the team (eventually) rallying around them for support over the years, one could question how good they really are for each other, on top of the ongoing debate in some places about whether or not they're good for the world (in-universe).

I can see why people would question the effectiveness of the Avengers as a team. Especially in the post Civil War-era where it seems like we have more events centered around heroes fighting each other rather than any wider threat. There was definitely a shift from grandeur events like the Infinity trilogy, the original Secret Wars, Onslaught, etc. to what we have now, which is our heroes barely getting along, to the point where they even go into someone's mind and erase their memory (not that I'm bitter, as a Cap fan, over that... much) to hush dissent within the ranks. Were I living in the wider Marvel Universe, as a regular human, I'd probably be thinking something along the lines of "get your @#$% together" about the superhero community. Writing-wise, it's actually a bit of a shame that Marvel has fallen into this trap (aka the constant stream of hero-vs-hero conflict). Because the best way for audiences to connect with a character is through their interactions with other characters. Isaac Asimov (the godfather of science fiction) once advised Gene Roddenberry of this when Roddenberry went to him with advice on how to get the audience to love Kirk as much as they did Spock, Asimov's solution being simple, make them friends, partners.

Excerpt from Asimov's letter to Roddenberry:

Then, too, it might be well to unify the team of Kirk and Spock a bit, by having them actively meet various menaces together with one saving the life of the other on occasion. The idea of this would be to get people to think of Kirk when they think of Spock.

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/06...mpossible.html

And it's true. As readers we empathize with things in fictional characters that have meaning to us within our own lives. The bonds of friendship being one of the stronger more potent forces, as are all aspects and variances of love. This is something that Chip Zdarsky tapped into very well in his Invaders run, especially today's issue, reminding audiences that despite all the times they've argued, at the core of it all, Steve and Namor are brothers and love each other.



In my opinion, this is what made the book stand out for me. What made it memorable and one of my favorite pulls. While the plot was also interesting, it's the interpersonal relationships that seal the deal. Heart is something that is missing in a lot of books these days, and it's unfortunate.

Back to the Avengers, the team has the potential to be great, to be what the Marvel Universe earth needs, but, if we can just get over the focus on the negativity and focus a little more on the positive. Delve a little more into the Found Family trope, and a little more into the main motivation of each character being a genuine desire to help people, and that is a binding commonality (and the most important one) that links them all, then maybe we wouldn't have this current issue we have where we're questioning whether the Avengers are more toxic for each other than not. One really good, self-aware, writer/run would do wonders for the Avengers franchise (not dissing Aaron, he's a great writer, but he's kind of been all over the place with his run, I'm starting to get dizzy. And he's definitely more plot driven than character driven, which would be fine... if the Avengers didn't have years of being written as being as fractured as they have been).

As for Bruce... actually rooting for him in IH. He's not wrong.

I have to say, reading '60s/'70s comics is so hard as a female reader because the writing isn't...great...for the female characters. Like old Fantastic Four stuff? Ouch. Poor Sue (maybe my all-time favorite Marvel woman) could barely function without Reed telling her what to do.

The old Cap stuff is similar in that regard -- look, there's no denying the framing of the Peggy/Sharon story was gross -- but I do like that Sharon had a firm resolve to her career. I think that aspect of her character is something that made writers like her and have her stick around/what prompted Wait to want to bring her back and Brubaker to make it one of his goals to get her back with Steve romantically. Also, Steve proposing to Sharon after knowing her like 3 days is not something that gets brought up enough for comedic purposes alone. I feel like this is something that he needs to get trolled about.

I miss OG Nick Fury so much. He had such a great dynamic with Steve, Sharon, and Bucky. In many ways, I feel like the CA comics lost a lot when he was written off for Synergy. Nick Fury Jr is just a sad shadow of both OG Fury and Ultimate!Fury.

I'm just...over miscarriages in comics, because they're almost always done for shock value and very little actual character development comes from it. I had heard that Brubaker wanted to bring it up again, but Editorial shot it down because it was "too sad" after everything, but that could just be a rumor. And the thing is: the miscarriage could have been an interesting character arc for Steve, because of what happened. It's pretty canon that he's thought/daydreamed/hallucinated about having kids with Sharon over the years, and then he almost had that only for the Skrull to attempt to use the baby for his weird body. During Remender's run, I recall seeming a few people speculate early on that Ian might have actually been that baby on the basis that it's not totally inconceivable in the land of comic books that they took out the fetus and decided to make it a test tube baby that Steve somehow stumbled upon. Obviously that didn't pan out.

Another weird thing that Remender set up that never got mentioned again? Sharon proposed to Steve in issue 1, when he thought she was dead Steve's internal narration referred to her as his fiance, and she came back and nothing. So, yeah, I'm chalking Dimension Z into a weird fever dream story.

I always attributed the three day proposal as Kirby and Lee reflecting on life as a soldier coming back from WW2. I mean, it is severely dated, this is true. But it was kind of, sort of, common for military men to meet someone and get married quickly back then, especially for a 40's guy like Steve who was really fresh off the ice when he met Sharon. And both Lee and Kirby were, themselves, veterans, who understood that culture. My own father was married prior to his service (he was Air Force), but my best friend's parents (dad is retired Navy) met on one of her dad's shore leaves while he was on active duty. Her mother is full blooded Tawainese, who, when they met, didn't speak a word of English. And yet they're still married to this day, so, it worked.

I'm definitely not defending that storyline, I always gave my daughter a mini-talk about how unrealistic the relationships were depicted in the Disney princess movies whenever she watched one as a younger child, considering most of the princesses barely knew the princes that they coveted. But I think the early Steve and Sharon relationship, back then, was a product of not just it's time, but also a thing common among the military men of WW2, sort of soldier-culture, a way to reaffirm life after war. Though it is hard to go back and read all that now, I agree. Especially as it contradicts Steve's modern characterization, which is someone who seems a bit gun-shy on the subject of marriage. I mean, Bernie proposed to him and his first answer, before she, rightly, called him to task on that answer, was no. He was afraid that marrying him would put a target on her back, and Bernie, unlike any of Steve's other girlfriends, did not have any combat training. As you pointed out, Sharon proposed as well, and we haven't seen it referenced again outside of Remender's run. So whatever rush Steve might have been in to get married when he first woke up, life in the modern times has seemingly cured him of it. Though, honestly, he and Sharon are as good as married. They've been living together long enough now that in the state of California they'd be considered common-law.

Agree with you, completely, on the subject of miscarriages. Or pregnancies as a whole. Especially as written by men.

[tliscord]

Never thought of that. Vets coming back from WW2 probably were terribly anxious to start living again. Gives context to Steve’s bumbling proposal.

[capandkirby]

Never thought of that. Vets coming back from WW2 probably were terribly anxious to start living again. Gives context to Steve’s bumbling proposal.

LOL, yeah, he did bumble that, didn't he. I know we have Man Out of Time but I wish we had even more modern content covering Steve's adjustment period to coming off the ice. And I'm not talking about joining the Avengers and fighting, but his adjustment to life-things, like learning you don't propose to women you have just met. Waid once wrote, in a special edition issue (I think it was Cap's 50th anniversary) a panel depicting Steve trying to get a new drivers license and the DMV employee thinking his birth certificate was a fake because it had his real birth year on it. Things like that. Would make a cute run.

[capandkirby]

Once again, since this topic comes up all the time elsewhere, we have definite proof that the current Steve is the real!Steve (or 'true' Steve, as Waid calls him) and that hydra!Cap was the copy...



Both Coates and now Waid have stated it outright.

[justanotherclassic]

I always attributed the three day proposal as Kirby and Lee reflecting on life as a soldier coming back from WW2. I mean, it is severely dated, this is true. But it was kind of, sort of, common for military men to meet someone and get married quickly back then, especially for a 40's guy like Steve who was really fresh off the ice when he met Sharon

Honestly, that's an aspect I hadn't given much though to, and it makes a lot of sense. It is an added element, especially since Steve was likely trying extra hard to grasp onto any sense of normalcy. Part of my own wrapping my head around the story for a modern context is also reminding myself that Steve was honestly quite young. Maybe 23? So some of the histrionics of both their characters could also be summed up as "early twenties weirdness and dramatics"...which also leads to Steve/Sharon also usually dealing with their relationship in a generally more mature way because they are more mature.

LOL, yeah, he did bumble that, didn't he. I know we have Man Out of Time but I wish we had even more modern content covering Steve's adjustment period to coming off the ice. And I'm not talking about joining the Avengers and fighting, but his adjustment to life-things, like learning you don't propose to women you have just met. Waid once wrote, in a special edition issue (I think it was Cap's 50th anniversary) a panel depicting Steve trying to get a new drivers license and the DMV employee thinking his birth certificate was a fake because it had his real birth year on it. Things like that. Would make a cute run.

Honestly, my favorite part of Man Out of Time was Steve just reacting to everything. The scenes in the Smithsonian actually had me tearing up a bit. So I would enjoy Cap awkwardly bumbling around trying to get accustomed to the modern era. But I also like the slice of life moments in comics in general. They make the heroes seem more human amongst the madness. For example, the scene in The Amazing Mary Jane where her and Peter had a twenty-second dance party? The best.

Also, now that I think about it, the sliding timescale now means that Cap also missed 9/11.

[capandkirby]

Honestly, that's an aspect I hadn't given much though to, and it makes a lot of sense. It is an added element, especially since Steve was likely trying extra hard to grasp onto any sense of normalcy. Part of my own wrapping my head around the story for a modern context is also reminding myself that Steve was honestly quite young. Maybe 23? So some of the histrionics of both their characters could also be summed up as "early twenties weirdness and dramatics"...which also leads to Steve/Sharon also usually dealing with their relationship in a generally more mature way because they are more mature.



Honestly, my favorite part of Man Out of Time was Steve just reacting to everything. The scenes in the Smithsonian actually had me tearing up a bit. So I would enjoy Cap awkwardly bumbling around trying to get accustomed to the modern era. But I also like the slice of life moments in comics in general. They make the heroes seem more human amongst the madness. For example, the scene in The Amazing Mary Jane where her and Peter had a twenty-second dance party? The best.

Also, now that I think about it, the sliding timescale now means that Cap also missed 9/11.

Right?! Same. I love that mini so much, it's my go-to read when I feel glum and need a bit of a pick-me-up. And as you said, it's those moments, the slice of life moments, that make the whole thing. Like Steve's face when he sees sushi for the first time (if there were a thought bubble over his head, it would probably read... "so, are we supposed to cook this ourselves, or...")



Or his face looking like someone has gone and insulted his mother when they ask him if he's a Yankees fan...



So good. Waid, you're alright. And Marvel, more of this please.

That's true about 9/11 and the sliding timescale. Good point.

[justanotherclassic]

Waid is definitely one of my favorite Captain America writers. He understands him pretty well. In a vacuum, I would even like his run with Samnee (who I looooooooove as an artist), but the whole arc felt insanely weird coming off the heels of Secret Empire. Steve just picks up and leaves for a roadtrip across America directly after that whole Captain Hydra mess, leaving behind his friends (who are clearly concerned about his well-being, but never appear). I mean, that feels somewhat in character, but at the same time not entirely healthy...which tracks with what we were discussing earlier with Steve's mental health.

[capandkirby]

Waid is definitely one of my favorite Captain America writers. He understands him pretty well. In a vacuum, I would even like his run with Samnee (who I looooooooove as an artist), but the whole arc felt insanely weird coming off the heels of Secret Empire. Steve just picks up and leaves for a roadtrip across America directly after that whole Captain Hydra mess, leaving behind his friends (who are clearly concerned about his well-being, but never appear). I mean, that feels somewhat in character, but at the same time not entirely healthy...which tracks with what we were discussing earlier with Steve's mental health.

Yeah, I agree that run is weird (though I liked it). I think it was more editorial, though. Marvel wanted to separate themselves from the controversy of Secret Empire and I guess they figured the best way to do that was to just... not mention it for awhile. I think assigning that task to Waid was also a very deliberate choice, because Waid's work with Cap is beloved and very well-regarded (if you look at the numbers, Waid's vol. 3 actually sold better than Brubaker's runs), his Cap vol. 3, The Sentinel of Liberty run, the Operation Rebirth run, Man Out of Time. Marvel knew that putting Waid on Cap again would get readers interested again. I do think it backfired in a way though, because even if people didn't like Secret Empire, they wanted closure from it. That old saying, you made your bed now you have to lay in it? That certainly applied to Marvel, there.

I *still* want closure and I wont get it until Rick and Steve are shown in a panel, hugging it out.

Though, as you said, it's not exactly out of character for Steve to want to go off in private to lick his wounds after a major trauma. I just mentioned this recently, but during Civil War, when Hill/SHIELD shot at him before the SHRA passed, Steve's first response wasn't to start a revolution, but to go into hiding, the problem there was that Hill kept chasing him, she was relentless. He was also on a road trip when the whole John Walker thing went down (and his friends were worried sick, then, too), I mean, he didn't become The Captain and try to fight back against the government right away, it took a bit. So there is precedence for Steve trying to clear his head in private before he tackles the larger issues at hand. But I agree, doing that after Secret Empire was very... jarring.

[capandkirby]

LOL, I can't...

[Huntsman Spider]

I can see why people would question the effectiveness of the Avengers as a team. Especially in the post Civil War-era where it seems like we have more events centered around heroes fighting each other rather than any wider threat. There was definitely a shift from grandeur events like the Infinity trilogy, the original Secret Wars, Onslaught, etc. to what we have now, which is our heroes barely getting along, to the point where they even go into someone's mind and erase their memory (not that I'm bitter, as a Cap fan, over that... much) to hush dissent within the ranks. Were I living in the wider Marvel Universe, as a regular human, I'd probably be thinking something along the lines of "get your @#$% together" about the superhero community. Writing-wise, it's actually a bit of a shame that Marvel has fallen into this trap (aka the constant stream of hero-vs-hero conflict). Because the best way for audiences to connect with a character is through their interactions with other characters. Isaac Asimov (the godfather of science fiction) once advised Gene Roddenberry of this when Roddenberry went to him with advice on how to get the audience to love Kirk as much as they did Spock, Asimov's solution being simple, make them friends, partners.

Excerpt from Asimov's letter to Roddenberry:



http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/06...mpossible.html

And it's true. As readers we empathize with things in fictional characters that have meaning to us within our own lives. The bonds of friendship being one of the stronger more potent forces, as are all aspects and variances of love. This is something that Chip Zdarsky tapped into very well in his Invaders run, especially today's issue, reminding audiences that despite all the times they've argued, at the core of it all, Steve and Namor are brothers and love each other.



In my opinion, this is what made the book stand out for me. What made it memorable and one of my favorite pulls. While the plot was also interesting, it's the interpersonal relationships that seal the deal. Heart is something that is missing in a lot of books these days, and it's unfortunate.

Back to the Avengers, the team has the potential to be great, to be what the Marvel Universe earth needs, but, if we can just get over the focus on the negativity and focus a little more on the positive. Delve a little more into the Found Family trope, and a little more into the main motivation of each character being a genuine desire to help people, and that is a binding commonality (and the most important one) that links them all, then maybe we wouldn't have this current issue we have where we're questioning whether the Avengers are more toxic for each other than not. One really good, self-aware, writer/run would do wonders for the Avengers franchise (not dissing Aaron, he's a great writer, but he's kind of been all over the place with his run, I'm starting to get dizzy. And he's definitely more plot driven than character driven, which would be fine... if the Avengers didn't have years of being written as being as fractured as they have been).

As for Bruce... actually rooting for him in IH. He's not wrong.



I always attributed the three day proposal as Kirby and Lee reflecting on life as a soldier coming back from WW2. I mean, it is severely dated, this is true. But it was kind of, sort of, common for military men to meet someone and get married quickly back then, especially for a 40's guy like Steve who was really fresh off the ice when he met Sharon. And both Lee and Kirby were, themselves, veterans, who understood that culture. My own father was married prior to his service (he was Air Force), but my best friend's parents (dad is retired Navy) met on one of her dad's shore leaves while he was on active duty. Her mother is full blooded Tawainese, who, when they met, didn't speak a word of English. And yet they're still married to this day, so, it worked.

I'm definitely not defending that storyline, I always gave my daughter a mini-talk about how unrealistic the relationships were depicted in the Disney princess movies whenever she watched one as a younger child, considering most of the princesses barely knew the princes that they coveted. But I think the early Steve and Sharon relationship, back then, was a product of not just it's time, but also a thing common among the military men of WW2, sort of soldier-culture, a way to reaffirm life after war. Though it is hard to go back and read all that now, I agree. Especially as it contradicts Steve's modern characterization, which is someone who seems a bit gun-shy on the subject of marriage. I mean, Bernie proposed to him and his first answer, before she, rightly, called him to task on that answer, was no. He was afraid that marrying him would put a target on her back, and Bernie, unlike any of Steve's other girlfriends, did not have any combat training. As you pointed out, Sharon proposed as well, and we haven't seen it referenced again outside of Remender's run. So whatever rush Steve might have been in to get married when he first woke up, life in the modern times has seemingly cured him of it. Though, honestly, he and Sharon are as good as married. They've been living together long enough now that in the state of California they'd be considered common-law.

Agree with you, completely, on the subject of miscarriages. Or pregnancies as a whole. Especially as written by men.

Yeah, I can (somewhat) relate on that last part, given how the 90s Spider-Man comics ended the Clone Saga by having Mary Jane miscarry after being poisoned by an agent of Norman Osborn and said miscarriage never be referred to again outside Mark Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man in the 2000s, just because someone higher up at Marvel thought, "Bad enough we let Spider-Man get married, but adding a kid, too? No way!" That was just atrocious, and along with some or a lot of the crap that happened later on in the title said a lot to me about how pervasive this kind of sentiment or mentality of using the character as a means to stubbornly cling to their own youth/adolescence was among too many people over there.

Also cosigning your thoughts on the Avengers finally getting their s*** together by getting a writer who wouldn't be afraid to reckon with the increasingly prevalent toxicity in how they've interacted with each other over the last decade or so, and then resolve that by having the Avengers actually try their hardest to be better to each other and for the world they protect. Oh, and I'll admit to rooting for Bruce in Immortal Hulk, too.

[tliscord]

I’d just add to your thoughts about friendship that Whedon and Feige have understand that piece of the puzzle about why we love these characters so much. It has to do less with the plot and action and more with their interaction. The example being the party held after winning their battle against Strucker and Hydra in Age of Ultron. As one critic said, more parties less action. My favorite quiet comic moment is with Steve, Bucky, and Sam hanging out at the Brooklyn bar. I think you’re right Zdarsky got it write with the latest Invaders run.

[justanotherclassic]

IÂ’d just add to your thoughts about friendship that Whedon and Feige have understand that piece of the puzzle about why we love these characters so much. It has to do less with the plot and action and more with their interaction. The example being the party held after winning their battle against Strucker and Hydra in Age of Ultron. As one critic said, more parties less action. My favorite quiet comic moment is with Steve, Bucky, and Sam hanging out at the Brooklyn bar. I think youÂ’re right Zdarsky got it write with the latest Invaders run.

I always found it insanely depressing that Age of Ultron was the last MCU movie where the characters honestly all felt like friends. From Civil War on, it became an angst-fest and I wasn't convinced these people even liked each other by the end. Even Steve's arc, where so much of it was built around deep and intense friendships, ended with him essentially devaluing those relationships in favor of a "what might have been" romance. He honestly spent most of Endgame mourning Peggy -- who died of natural causes 7 years earlier than his friends who were straight eradicated...and it felt unnatural and a bit like emotional whiplash.

The relations people have are so important. It's why I care about the teams -- the relationships they build with one another -- as opposed to the horrible in fighting. And in relation to 616!Steve, those friendships are so important to him feeling human in modern world and help him bridge his present to the past. The Avengers were incredibly important for that transition, just as the familiar face of OG Nick Fury was, as well. At any rate, what makes a good story isn't just the hero, it's their supporting cast and the people they revolve around and those fun moments.

And tying back to Invaders, I wouldn't actually mind Zdarsky getting a chance at a main Cap title in the future.

[tliscord]

I’m impressed with Zdarsky, too. Writes a reflective Steve Rogers well. Guice has stated he’s got no plans after Invaders, but damn I’d love to see him back on the strip.