Batgirl #30 & Batman #995 (spoilers)

[Frontier]

To me, it makes sense in King Batman, because it's somewhat natural to lose more and more of what connects Bruce to his life outside of the mission after the wedding (even though he spent a huge amount of time out of costume in Cold Days).

King's run never really struck me as the type of book to focus on that stuff anyways, with few exceptions.

[millernumber1]

King's run never really struck me as the type of book to focus on that stuff anyways, with few exceptions.

We shall see!

[MajorHoy]

I must have missed that thread. Strangely, I was looking for it.

Were you looking for a thread on "Detective Comics #995" or for one on "Batman #995"?

[scary harpy]

I was looking for #995...and a conversation about Leslie.


I don't know how I missed it.

[babybats]

And yet, it's completely predictable. Leslie's primary philosophical/thematic function was to oppose Batman's methods while loving him personally. Removing the philosophical/thematic opposition to Batman just before he goes full Rorschach (or worse) is pretty consistent with my philosophical/thematic criticism of Tomasi since the start of Batman and Robin.

I'm not a big fan of his fridging Leslie in Tec, but I do hold his B&R as one of my favorites, so I'm curious what your philosophical/thematic criticisms are?

[millernumber1]

I'm not a big fan of his fridging Leslie in Tec, but I do hold his B&R as one of my favorites, so I'm curious what your philosophical/thematic criticisms are?

I think Tomasi is very good at building to a nice warm heartfelt moment, especially regarding fathers and sons. That being said, I really dislike the way he writes both Bruce and Damian - they're both incredibly self-centered characters, and too similar to really provide contrast or help each other grow in that specific problem. The two arcs that really frustrated me in B&R were the War of the Robins, where Damian is cruel to Tim and Jason (immediately after murdering Nobody), and nobody the narrative invests any moral authority in (Batman, Nightwing, Alfred) tells him he's doing something very wrong. Then there's the Five Stages of Grief - which was very affecting, and gorgeously drawn by Gleason - but the way Bruce treats Tim and Jason (again) is contemptuous and in Jason's case, pretty close to outright cruel. Bruce does apologize in Hunt for Robin, but it's treated like all he did was say slightly mean things to him - there's no sense of the magnitude of his self-centeredness. And Damian never apologizes.

Now, I agree with Priest that if you make Damian a nice, polite boy, you're completely destroying any point to his existence or character consistency. But I think some measure of consequence should happen for the kind of thing Tomasi has both Damian and Bruce do. It's largely why I love Robin Son of Batman: Year of Blood so much, because it's directly about the consequences for what Damian has done, and he actually feels that he has done wrong, while still being in character and rude.

[babybats]

I think Tomasi is very good at building to a nice warm heartfelt moment, especially regarding fathers and sons. That being said, I really dislike the way he writes both Bruce and Damian - they're both incredibly self-centered characters, and too similar to really provide contrast or help each other grow in that specific problem. The two arcs that really frustrated me in B&R were the War of the Robins, where Damian is cruel to Tim and Jason (immediately after murdering Nobody), and nobody the narrative invests any moral authority in (Batman, Nightwing, Alfred) tells him he's doing something very wrong. Then there's the Five Stages of Grief - which was very affecting, and gorgeously drawn by Gleason - but the way Bruce treats Tim and Jason (again) is contemptuous and in Jason's case, pretty close to outright cruel. Bruce does apologize in Hunt for Robin, but it's treated like all he did was say slightly mean things to him - there's no sense of the magnitude of his self-centeredness. And Damian never apologizes.

Now, I agree with Priest that if you make Damian a nice, polite boy, you're completely destroying any point to his existence or character consistency. But I think some measure of consequence should happen for the kind of thing Tomasi has both Damian and Bruce do. It's largely why I love Robin Son of Batman: Year of Blood so much, because it's directly about the consequences for what Damian has done, and he actually feels that he has done wrong, while still being in character and rude.

Ah yeah, I see what you mean. I don't personally mind that there's nothing in those stories to explicitly signal that what a character has done was wrong/unkind because I think it's understood by the reader. And I'm also okay with them not really being punished for their self-centeredness by the narrative, because I think that manifests in the fact that Damian has no friends (that aren't pets or Nightwing) and half of Bruce's kids hate or distrust him.

But on the other hand, I can also see why that would be frustrating to read. Tomasi doesn't treat Bruce and Damian's self-centeredness as a problem to be solved, it's just presented as a part of their personalities that he never addresses or criticizes in a meaningful way.

[millernumber1]

Ah yeah, I see what you mean. I don't personally mind that there's nothing in those stories to explicitly signal that what a character has done was wrong/unkind because I think it's understood by the reader. And I'm also okay with them not really being punished for their self-centeredness by the narrative, because I think that manifests in the fact that Damian has no friends (that aren't pets or Nightwing) and half of Bruce's kids hate or distrust him.

But on the other hand, I can also see why that would be frustrating to read. Tomasi doesn't treat Bruce and Damian's self-centeredness as a problem to be solved, it's just presented as a part of their personalities that he never addresses or criticizes in a meaningful way.

It FEELS that both Tomais and most of his fans think that Tim and Jason are unworthy characters, and Damian shouldn't be sad that they dislike him. So that doesn't feel like a "consequence" so much as a "desired state."

I do think that Bruce and Damian SHOULD be self-centered - it makes them realistic, flawed, interesting characters. But the way Tomasi does it seems to present it not so much as a problem as part of what makes them cool.

[TheCape]

It FEELS that both Tomais and most of his fans think that Tim and Jason are unworthy characters, and Damian shouldn't be sad that they dislike him. So that doesn't feel like a "consequence" so much as a "desired state."

I do think that Bruce and Damian SHOULD be self-centered - it makes them realistic, flawed, interesting characters. But the way Tomasi does it seems to present it not so much as a problem as part of what makes them cool.

I'm not sure if agreed with everything that you say, but i'm partially in agreement with the bolded point, anti-heroes or at least darker vigilantes have the problem that sometimes the writers don't treat their flaws as... well actual flaws, Wolverine is a my second favorite Marvel characters and he is hit with that pretty hard sometimes.

[kjn]

And yet, it's completely predictable. Leslie's primary philosophical/thematic function was to oppose Batman's methods while loving him personally. Removing the philosophical/thematic opposition to Batman just before he goes full Rorschach (or worse) is pretty consistent with my philosophical/thematic criticism of Tomasi since the start of Batman and Robin.

Without having read that particular arc (not that much of a Batman reader), I think this is a key insight into writing a rich and interesting form of stories: the one where the protagonist is challenged morally. Not if they should act or not (the classic moral question of many westerns), but by the question if they are acting in the most moral, upright, or proper way.

But since the protagonist is in a privileged position in-story, a lot of people—both readers and creators—can feel that such a challenge is a challenge against themselves as persons. Some manage to rise to the challenge themselves. Most avoid them. But some set out to crush the challenger.

Batwoman has a few of these characters around him. Leslie Thompkins was one. Catwoman, as she was developed, turned into another—especially under Brubaker. Babs as Oracle turned into a third, though she was a moral challenge not so much against Batman as against DC itself. Poison Ivy was evolving into another the more her ecofeminism was explored. Then you have Wonder Woman and Superman, but they are outside of the Batman circle. But I think it's no coincidence that in today's climate, there is an on-going tug of war over these characters being sidelined or rendered safe in various ways, and trying to reestablish them as challengers of the established morality.

(Wonder Woman is probably the most extreme example. I don't think any writer has ever really sat down and tried to analyse how Diana would see and react to our world, and to other superheroes. Greg Rucka and Darwyn Cooke has probably come closest. The movie does well, but it does so by being set in the past, thus rendering Diana's criticism of the society of 1918 safe; I hope Jenkins can do a similar criticism of 1984.)

[MajorHoy]

It was discussed in the Tec 995 thread. A couple of people cared

By the way, can somebody point out the "Detective Comics #995" thread?
(What the heck is the title of it?)

And, by the way, a thread was started for Batgirl #30 a few weeks ago:

Batgirl #30 discussion thread (ships early January 2019)
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-January-2019)

but nobody really seemed interested in it.

[babybats]

It FEELS that both Tomais and most of his fans think that Tim and Jason are unworthy characters, and Damian shouldn't be sad that they dislike him. So that doesn't feel like a "consequence" so much as a "desired state."

I do think that Bruce and Damian SHOULD be self-centered - it makes them realistic, flawed, interesting characters. But the way Tomasi does it seems to present it not so much as a problem as part of what makes them cool.

Hmm, that's not the way I read it. For me, it's clear as day that Damian's POV is flawed and his quest to prove his superiority was meant to come off as absurd. And same goes for Batjerk. But I also can't deny there are a lot of fans who did take it the other way, so... idk, personally I think the fault lies with the fans in this case. I don't really think Tomasi presents their flaws as something admirable or cool. He plays it for laughs, yes, and doesn't present clear consequences for their actions, but that doesn't bother me.

But we'll see what he does with Bruce in Tec.

[scary harpy]

By the way, can somebody point out the "Detective Comics #995" thread?
(What the heck is the title of it?)

I couldn't find it either.

And, by the way, a thread was started for Batgirl #30 a few weeks ago:

Batgirl #30 discussion thread (ships early January 2019)
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-January-2019)

but nobody really seemed interested in it.

That thread was started 9 days before December 25th...for a comic available in January.

I wonder if people were busy with something else then.

[RedBird]

I think Tomasi is very good at building to a nice warm heartfelt moment, especially regarding fathers and sons. That being said, I really dislike the way he writes both Bruce and Damian - they're both incredibly self-centered characters, and too similar to really provide contrast or help each other grow in that specific problem. The two arcs that really frustrated me in B&R were the War of the Robins, where Damian is cruel to Tim and Jason (immediately after murdering Nobody), and nobody the narrative invests any moral authority in (Batman, Nightwing, Alfred) tells him he's doing something very wrong. Then there's the Five Stages of Grief - which was very affecting, and gorgeously drawn by Gleason - but the way Bruce treats Tim and Jason (again) is contemptuous and in Jason's case, pretty close to outright cruel. Bruce does apologize in Hunt for Robin, but it's treated like all he did was say slightly mean things to him - there's no sense of the magnitude of his self-centeredness. And Damian never apologizes.

Now, I agree with Priest that if you make Damian a nice, polite boy, you're completely destroying any point to his existence or character consistency. But I think some measure of consequence should happen for the kind of thing Tomasi has both Damian and Bruce do. It's largely why I love Robin Son of Batman: Year of Blood so much, because it's directly about the consequences for what Damian has done, and he actually feels that he has done wrong, while still being in character and rude.

Sorry I don't have anything to add but yeah agreed 100%, and I think you just helped me realize another reason as to why I prefer SOB to B&R, thanks.

Oh and on the previous topic, assuming its not 'fake', yeah killing Leslie off so unceremoniously is a trashy idea. I understand people felt she had already been distanced away from her previous well meaning incarnations, but in those kinds of cases, I would have preferred a writer dedicate SOME time in actually incorporating her into the story and reestablishing her character in a meaningful way, rather than just another death all for shock value. Someone mentioned it before and they were right, Tomasi is much better with Super characters than Bat characters.

[Armor of God]

It FEELS that both Tomais and most of his fans think that Tim and Jason are unworthy characters, and Damian shouldn't be sad that they dislike him. So that doesn't feel like a "consequence" so much as a "desired state."

I do think that Bruce and Damian SHOULD be self-centered - it makes them realistic, flawed, interesting characters. But the way Tomasi does it seems to present it not so much as a problem as part of what makes them cool.

I'm sorry what? Tomasi wrote Tim well in his Nightwing run and he even did that horrible version of him from the future justice.
He wrote Jason well in the Arkham Knight books. At that time that was the best material with the character by far. Are you sure you're not thinking of King(Robin War, Rules of Engagement)? Or even Tynion( who had future Tim wipe the floor with the other 3 Robins and went out of his way to give us silly reasons why they weren't worthy of the mantle).

Tomasi's Bat work largely consists of Batman & Robin which ofcourse featured Bruce and Damian. So yeah it was going to make them look good like any writer is going to make titular characters look good. He barely used the other characters. The worst thing he did with them was that 5 stages arc which only featured them for a single issue anyway and that arc was him following developments left by Snyder and Morrison.