Batgirl #30 & Batman #995 (spoilers)

[kjn]

In memory of Leslie Thompkins:

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

The Killing Joke, says I to her
Her watching like a seer
They shot and raped and left you, Babs
Says Babs, But I'm still here
Says Babs, But I'm still here

The DC bosses wrote you out,
They turned you into grist
Takes more than pens to unwrite me
Says Babs, And I persist
Says Babs, And I persist

And sitting there as real as life
And smiling with her eyes
Babs says, What they can not erase
My life that I devise
My life that I devise

Oracle's here, she says to me
Oracle still abides
Where girls are fridg'd and written out
Oracle's at their sides
Oracle's at their sides

In songs and films and comic books
The valley and the hill
Where women build their life anew
You'll find Oracle still
You'll find Oracle still

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

Inspired by and to the tune of “I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night”, as sung by Joan Baez (there are lots of great versions, but this one needs a woman's voice).

[CPSparkles]

By the way, can somebody point out the "Detective Comics #995" thread?
(What the heck is the title of it?)

And, by the way, a thread was started for Batgirl #30 a few weeks ago:

Batgirl #30 discussion thread (ships early January 2019)
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-January-2019)

but nobody really seemed interested in it.

My mistake that was 994 on here must have been reddit

[MajorHoy]

. . . And, by the way, a thread was started for Batgirl #30 a few weeks ago:

Batgirl #30 discussion thread (ships early January 2019)
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-January-2019)

but nobody really seemed interested in it.

That thread was started 9 days before December 25th...for a comic available in January.

I wonder if people were busy with something else then.

It was started then because Batgirl would normally ship the 4th Wednesday of the month, which would have been December 26th.
Which is also why that thread began with

IMPORTANT REMINDER: Due to the 4th Tuesday of December falling on December 26th (the day after Christmas), there will not be any new issue of Batgirl this December (2018). Instead, issue #30 is currently due out for January 2nd (2019) while issue #31 is suppose to ship for January 30th (the 5th Wednesday of the month).

And even if people didn't remember seeing it at the time, a simple search for threads with "BATGIRL" in the title should have turned it up.

I also didn't realize all the previous "Appreciation" threads would be closed/locked at the start of the new year, resulting in a ton of new versions of those appreciation threads suddenly being re-started and knocking other relevant discussions back down a page or two so they'd be out of sight / out of mind.

[CPSparkles]

It FEELS that both Tomais and most of his fans think that Tim and Jason are unworthy characters, and Damian shouldn't be sad that they dislike him. So that doesn't feel like a "consequence" so much as a "desired state."

I do think that Bruce and Damian SHOULD be self-centered - it makes them realistic, flawed, interesting characters. But the way Tomasi does it seems to present it not so much as a problem as part of what makes them cool.

Tomasi fan here who likes both Tim and Jason and believe them to be very worthy.

I didn't like how Bruce taking advantage of Jason though I liked Jason being bigger and turning up to fight with Bruce.
The arc where Damian challenges the Robins I didn't mind because that seemed believable to me how Damian would go about seeking their acceptance. Trying to best them. With his background it seemed in keeping with his character. It seemed in keeping with Jason's not to go ham on a kid and it seemed in keeping with Tim's to try to pull Bruce back when he went too far and to take Damian's bait.

Also Jason doesn't like Damian? That news to me.

I don't know how you can feel that Tomasi's fans think those two are unworthy. When Tomasi fans can be different sorts.

[millernumber1]

Or even Tynion( who had future Tim wipe the floor with the other 3 Robins and went out of his way to give us silly reasons why they weren't worthy of the mantle).

I don't think Tynion-as-writer was saying at all that any of the Robins were unworthy. Yes, Bat-Tim was saying that, but he was clearly deranged and morally compromised - we are not meant to agree with him, and the narrative makes that clear by having literally every character disagree with him (except possibly normal-Tim, who becomes deranged himself, which undercuts his moral authority). I don't put much stock in "who can beat who in a fight" contests unless it happens over and over again - it happened once in Tynion's run, and sure, it might have been a storytelling shortcut, but I don't think it diminished Dick, Jason, or Damian.

Tomasi fan here who likes both Tim and Jason and believe them to be very worthy.

I didn't like how Bruce taking advantage of Jason though I liked Jason being bigger and turning up to fight with Bruce.
The arc where Damian challenges the Robins I didn't mind because that seemed believable to me how Damian would go about seeking their acceptance. Trying to best them. With his background it seemed in keeping with his character. It seemed in keeping with Jason's not to go ham on a kid and it seemed in keeping with Tim's to try to pull Bruce back when he went too far and to take Damian's bait.

Also Jason doesn't like Damian? That news to me.

I don't know how you can feel that Tomasi's fans think those two are unworthy. When Tomasi fans can be different sorts.

Perhaps I'm letting one or two Tomasi fan interactions I've had color my interpretation. I'm glad to find alternative perspectives!

I agree that Damian's actions were in character in "War of the Robins" - my problem is that nobody with authority (Alfred, Bruce, or Dick) calls him out, so it feels like the narrative condones his actions, or at the very least thinks they're really cool.

I don't know if Jason likes or dislikes Damian. I don't think he left the War of the Robins story being more positively inclined towards him, though.

[Restingvoice]

The problem with Bruce's jerkish portrayal, whether by Tomasi, Snyder, or others, is that he often's not punished for it and he never apologize. At least not directly. The consequence often came from the villains, his own stress, or the death and suffering of other people around him. His family always find a way to forgive him.

The Jason situation, for example, after what he did, the next time they meet was in Eternal, and there was no apology from Batman, no demand of apology from Jason, just the next mission. In a later scene, Jason expressed worry over Batman, and he was rebuffed because Batman was too focused and stressed.

In Tomasi's story itself, the closest they whole family did to make up after all he did during his grieving period was before the mission to resurrect Damian. Batman promised there will be no more secrets... which was a big fat lie because the still living Dick Grayson was hanging out right above them.

Then when Dick returned to reveal he's alive, only he gets to suffer the family's anger. Bruce was amnesia, and by the time he regained his memory, the moment of anger already passed.

Damian, I don't pay attention as much. I think his punishment and apology came pretty quick if it's from his father, but not everyone else. At least during The Lazarus Contract, there's no immediate repercusion to him for almost killing Wally and made him suffer permanent damage.

[millernumber1]

Damian, I don't pay attention as much. I think his punishment and apology came pretty quick if it's from his father, but not everyone else. At least during The Lazarus Contract, there's no immediate repercusion to him for almost killing Wally and made him suffer permanent damage.

I think the treatment of Wally is frustrating, but it felt in character for Damian without being personally directed at Wally - I got the feeling that Damian would have done the same to any character to save the world.

[Armor of God]

I don't think Tynion-as-writer was saying at all that any of the Robins were unworthy. Yes, Bat-Tim was saying that, but he was clearly deranged and morally compromised - we are not meant to agree with him, and the narrative makes that clear by having literally every character disagree with him (except possibly normal-Tim, who becomes deranged himself, which undercuts his moral authority). I don't put much stock in "who can beat who in a fight" contests unless it happens over and over again - it happened once in Tynion's run, and sure, it might have been a storytelling shortcut, but I don't think it diminished Dick, Jason, or Damian.



Perhaps I'm letting one or two Tomasi fan interactions I've had color my interpretation. I'm glad to find alternative perspectives!

I agree that Damian's actions were in character in "War of the Robins" - my problem is that nobody with authority (Alfred, Bruce, or Dick) calls him out, so it feels like the narrative condones his actions, or at the very least thinks they're really cool.

I don't know if Jason likes or dislikes Damian. I don't think he left the War of the Robins story being more positively inclined towards him, though.

Well its not like Tomasi ever said that every Robin other than Damian is unworthy either, he never even had Damian say that (other writers have by the way). BatTim was still wanked to Gary Stu levels despite the original Johns version never really being particularly impressive to begin with and Tynion specifically had him beat on the other 3 Robins who had nothing to do with his run while sparing his actual Tec cast. If it was a simple versus situation there were plenty of other characters for Tim to beat up.
I also disagree with the narrative presenting him as wrong, because it never did, the other characters were obviously going to disagree with him but that doesn't mean anything. O the contrary the narrative was trying to sell him as the most worthy Batman replacement that's why Jason was an addict and Dick was selfish and Damian not even worth it.

[Frontier]

I think the treatment of Wally is frustrating, but it felt in character for Damian without being personally directed at Wally - I got the feeling that Damian would have done the same to any character to save the world.

I feel like he probably would have considered it as an option and done it if things were really desperate but he wouldn't have been as unfeeling and non-bothered by doing it as he was by the time the storyline was over and what happened to Wally.

And certainly everyone in that story (especially Dick) should've had more of a problem with what he did then they were shown doing. Damian's own team was more concerned about him kicking Kid Flash off then for what he did to The Flash.

[bat1987]

Well its not like Tomasi ever said that every Robin other than Damian is unworthy either, he never even had Damian say that (other writers have by the way). BatTim was still wanked to Gary Stu levels despite the original Johns version never really being particularly impressive to begin with and Tynion specifically had him beat on the other 3 Robins who had nothing to do with his run while sparing his actual Tec cast. If it was a simple versus situation there were plenty of other characters for Tim to beat up.

Damn I hated Tynion's run so much. One of the reminders why for sure.

[babybats]

In memory of Leslie Thompkins:

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

The Killing Joke, says I to her
Her watching like a seer
They shot and raped and left you, Babs
Says Babs, But I'm still here
Says Babs, But I'm still here

The DC bosses wrote you out,
They turned you into grist
Takes more than pens to unwrite me
Says Babs, And I persist
Says Babs, And I persist

And sitting there as real as life
And smiling with her eyes
Babs says, What they can not erase
My life that I devise
My life that I devise

Oracle's here, she says to me
Oracle still abides
Where girls are fridg'd and written out
Oracle's at their sides
Oracle's at their sides

In songs and films and comic books
The valley and the hill
Where women build their life anew
You'll find Oracle still
You'll find Oracle still

I dreamed last night of Oracle
Her sitting next to me
Says I, But Babs, you're Batgirl now
I never quit, says she
I never quit, says she

Inspired by and to the tune of “I Dreamed I Saw Joe Hill Last Night”, as sung by Joan Baez (there are lots of great versions, but this one needs a woman's voice).

*sheds a tear* That was beautiful xD

[CPSparkles]

I don't think Tynion-as-writer was saying at all that any of the Robins were unworthy. Yes, Bat-Tim was saying that, but he was clearly deranged and morally compromised - we are not meant to agree with him, and the narrative makes that clear by having literally every character disagree with him (except possibly normal-Tim, who becomes deranged himself, which undercuts his moral authority). I don't put much stock in "who can beat who in a fight" contests unless it happens over and over again - it happened once in Tynion's run, and sure, it might have been a storytelling shortcut, but I don't think it diminished Dick, Jason, or Damian.



Perhaps I'm letting one or two Tomasi fan interactions I've had color my interpretation. I'm glad to find alternative perspectives!

I agree that Damian's actions were in character in "War of the Robins" - my problem is that nobody with authority (Alfred, Bruce, or Dick) calls him out, so it feels like the narrative condones his actions, or at the very least thinks they're really cool.

I don't know if Jason likes or dislikes Damian. I don't think he left the War of the Robins story being more positively inclined towards him, though.

Dick did talk to him making it clear him actions were unnecessary. He called out his insecurities. The reactions of the robins when he gathered them to inform them was pretty much them facepalming so I think it was clear his actions weren't cool.

His interaction with Tim was basically him admitting he cared what Tim thought. Not cool. Maybe some would have liked Dick to scold him but I thought he handled it well. Damian knows pain, harsh words and punishment which is why Bruce had a hard time with him. Dick got through because Dick nurtured through encouraging the positive behaviour.

I think you are being unfair. You say Tynion's Tim was crazy so that gets a pass. Bruce wasn't himself when Damian died. Much like when Jason died or when Dick was shot dude went a bit crazy and we saw many people from the Robins to the JL to Frankenstein call him out on his behaviour. We the readers saw that he was losing it. That was very clear.The story made it very clear that he was losing it trying to deal with the loss. He was going through the stages of grief so no rational behaviour here.

I always thought that Jason empathised and understood Damian on a level most can't [and not just on account of their shitty mums]. He seemed to in Inc and RHATO.

Sad that one or to have affected your opinion so much but I've never felt that way about Tim and Jason. I also didn't interpret the stories that way. I hated Bruce tricking Jason. It made me think badly of him and feel for Jason.


Jason's handling of Damian in War of the Robins and him being there for Bruce after Bruce tried to use him made respect him even more. He clearly has a really good heart and has a great deal of control.

[babybats]

I feel like he probably would have considered it as an option and done it if things were really desperate but he wouldn't have been as unfeeling and non-bothered by doing it as he was by the time the storyline was over and what happened to Wally.

And certainly everyone in that story (especially Dick) should've had more of a problem with what he did then they were shown doing. Damian's own team was more concerned about him kicking Kid Flash off then for what he did to The Flash.

Agree. Damian in Lazarus Contract felt very OOC, but not because of what he did to Wally, but his attitude throughout. Damian should've felt guilt for what ended up happening. And the way he acts around Dick in it is so weird. He didn't care about Dick's opinion or authority at all. Also I don't think he'd be so quick to dismiss Wallace after RSoB (which was all about redemption, and where he befriended an assassin-in-training and a kid who tried to destroy the world). It was like the past five years of stories never happened.

But there's precedent for this kind of thing. DickBats electroshocked Damian in the heart when Slade was controlling him. So I'm not too bothered that he wasn't more outraged at what Damian did, but yeah. The whole thing was brushed off too easily and not handled well.

[kjn]

*sheds a tear* That was beautiful xD

Thanks! (10char)

[millernumber1]

I think you are being unfair. You say Tynion's Tim was crazy so that gets a pass. Bruce wasn't himself when Damian died. Much like when Jason died or when Dick was shot dude went a bit crazy and we saw many people from the Robins to the JL to Frankenstein call him out on his behaviour. We the readers saw that he was losing it. That was very clear.The story made it very clear that he was losing it trying to deal with the loss. He was going through the stages of grief so no rational behaviour here.

I don't think I said that Tynion gave Tim a pass at all. Because of his instability, everything he wanted most - the dream that the Gotham Knight team represented - was destroyed.

You're right that Bruce was out of his head in his stages of grief - my problem is that the narrative seems to validate that his actions were ultimately right - Damian was resurrected, I think largely because Bruce didn't give up. And his apology doesn't contain a significant element of behavioral change towards his other kids - Tim, Babs, and Jason - to actually heal the damage he did to their relationship.

I think you're right that their forgiving of Bruce speaks well of their characters, but it didn't sit right for me emotionally. I can see where Tomasi was attempting to create a balanced and satisfying relational arc, but it didn't quite get everything in place for me. But I will acknowledge that he tried to put the pieces in place.