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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    This is all very interesting. I never realized how bad Creed had been treated till now. I like him as a villain, but felt they could have explored more with him as an antihero. After reading your posts, I can't help but ask what you would think would be a good direction for Creed if given the chance to decide?
    This will be long. But someone asked me a similar question on another forum. So I am just pasting.

    As a Villain
    f he's gonna become a legit A-list villain, like Magneto, then he's got to branch off. Have more ambition than stalking Logan. Long as he's mostly seen as "Wolverine's stalker", he's always gonna be used as a gimmick. Like Dr. Draken from Kim Possible. The worst case we see of this is Wolverine MAX where Sabretooth came off like a jilted boyfriend who was still lusting for Logan...Or The Logan Legacy where he's dressing other man as Wolverine, dreaming about him, and worried he wont find anyone better. MY GOD! That was horrible!!!!

    Tormenting Wolveine should remain an occasional hobby he gets sick kicks from. But don't turn it into an obsession and his reason for life. Even in the 90's, he had a life & even some pals to hang with when he wasn't fighting with Logan.

    Jason Aaron was going in the right direction having him become a Crime lord in Asian where he also took over The Hand organization. He was moving from henchman level to boss level. But then Bendis came along, made him Mystique's sidekick and that was the end of that.

    He needs to be depicted as a threat. Don't have heroes responding to him in an exasperated manner. Take him back to when he was feared, not seen as an annoyance. He needs to stay with one writer who can clean him up, and the X-office needs to crank down on making sure subsequent writers respect the character work. Don't just reset him for the benefit of whatever story the next person wants to tell.

    Graydon was brought back in Weapon X. Obviously he'll be a villain. But since Sabretooth is the one who saved him from Hell, he could be responsible for finding Sabretooth & boosting him again as payback for saving him. He gave Sabretooth his first strength enhancement back in the 90's mini series. Wolverine stays getting power-ups. He's got hot claws now. So give Sabretooth some enhancements too and depict their fights as more competitive. Or better yet, make Sabretooth the stronger enemy who Wolverine may have to use some tactics to defeat, rather than taking him out in 5 sec.

    Anti-Hero
    In order for him to get that, it would take more time than Marvel is willing to give. With all their relaunches, constantly shuffling character to different writers, and not making writers keep consistency, it seems they don't care about development -so much as they care about events & whatever they think is the next big thing.

    Sabretooth would need to stay with one writer to do the story. Bunn said he had long plans for Sabretooth & wasn't in a hurry to revert him. But again, he lost the character.

    I think the inversion could be used as an opening to have Sabretooth working with others for more altruistic purposes, and show him developing bonds with others & getting in touch with the humanity he's tried so hard to suppress or ignore. Then take Bunn's approach, when he felt it starting to wear off in Uncanny, he decided to try & be something different. Something other than the lie his inverted self was, but something other than the monster he real self was. So as it wears off, have him determined to organically change now that he's experienced some of the positives Logan has in more full form. But won't be easy given he's been evil for around 142 years. But continuing from there with the spell wearing off, and Creed struggling to do better on his own or struggling on what he wants at all, without the magic crutch.

    And have Monet try to help him. Bunn would've made them a couple had he not lost the characters. He confirmed last year that they had feelings for each other when he says they had a torturous love. So Monet battling her dark side with Emplate's influence & Creed battling his dark side as well would've made for interesting & possibly some dark developments as they try to stay connected & motivated to face their demons together

    It would be a loooooong tale, but something like that could put Creed over the edge to being a solid anti-hero. Plus, it helps that it would be of his own effort, rather than just staying inverted by a spell forever. It works for Angel, but it'd be more authentic if Creed was organically changed. And it'd still be more development than Exiles Creed got. lol

    Where things are now. Creed is crazy & ran into the Saskatchewan woods last we saw him & Monet wondered where he was. I could see her finding him (of him finding her if he can recall her scent in that state) and her being the one to care for him while he's out of his mind. Is he reverted & evil? Is he reverted & confused? Or, is he still inverted? The second option would be best because it gives more to work with on how he responds to everything he can remember about his experiences the last few years, his feelings for Monet, and how she's tried to help him. Could create a nice start.

    Sadly with Marvel's track record, this will be wasted just to make Sabretooth Wolverine's punching-bag again. As often as he's jobbed, "arch nemesis" isn't something he deserves to be called at this point.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 01-28-2019 at 09:51 AM.

  2. #17
    Astonishing Member From The Shadows's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    He actually did. We saw twice prior to that he loved his mother. Mystique tried to use it against him when she turned into his mother to upset him.

    Then when Logan calls him a motherless piece of -Creed clobbers him for bringing up his mother.

    So it was consistent he loved his mother. We can't forget he also spared Graydon, despite killing the thing that kept him someone sane (Bridy). Then when meeting him again in X-Factor, Creed says he's Graydon's biggest supporter and even yells to Graydon "Good luck son, remember me when you become president." So he did have some fondness for his son. Mystique on the other hand was the parent to kill him without a care.

    And there's been other moments such as his love interests (the good ones) who have shown even he has a soft side.

    Hell, I'd rather see more of his relationship with Momma than Mystique.
    Attachment 77672
    At least this seemed more genuine than anything they had.

    But not the case. Villain Creed is only ever going to have a relationship with Mystique. Now. Idk why Marvel is intent on forcing this retconned mess of a relationship. But that's become the standard. If anything different were going to be done, it'd have happened by now.

    So with Creed as a villain, we'll get him
    1. Being abused by Mystique while following her around like a puppy.
    2. Getting manhandled by Wolverine and everyone else in the M.U.

    And....well, that's about it. It's been the status quo for 14 years. lol Well, 14 years on Creed being a punk. 5 years on his romance with Mystique.

    The days of Creed being the villain he was are over. If he's used as a villain, he's only ever going to be a slapstick punk. I guess it's Marvel's way of making him usable without offending anyone. Except for fans who liked the badass version.
    But that was because he was still an innocent child when he formed that bond. But after that not an ounce of empathy unless it was because of AoA. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I mean you want to enjoy the reformed Creed. That's fine. I won't spoil it for you but enjoy it while it lasts.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    This will be long. But someone asked me a similar question on another forum. So I am just pasting.

    As a Villain
    f he's gonna become a legit A-list villain, like Magneto, then he's got to branch off. Have more ambition than stalking Logan. Long as he's most see as "Wolverine's stalker", he's always gonna be used as a gimmick. Like Dr. Draken from Kim Possible. The worst case we see of this is Wolverine MAX where Sabretooth came off like a jilted boyfriend who was still lusting for Logan...Or The Logan Legacy where he's dressing other man as Wolverine, dreaming about him, and worried he wont find anyone better. MY GOD! That was horrible!!!!

    Tormenting Wolveine should remain an occasional hobby he gets sick kicks from. But don't turn it into an obsession and his reason for life. Even in the 90's, he had a life & even some pals to hang with when he wasn't fighting with Logan.

    Jason Aaron was going in the right direction having him become a Crime lord in Asian where he also took over The Hand organization. He was moving from henchman level to boss level. But then Bendis came along, made him Mystique's sidekick and that was the end of that.

    He needs to be depicted as a threat. Don't have heroes responding to him in an exasperated manner. Take him back to when he was feared, not seen as an annoyance. He needs to stay with one writer who can clean him up, and the X-office needs to crank down on making sure subsequent writers respect the character work. Don't just reset him for the benefit of whatever story the next person wants to tell.

    Graydon was brought back in Weapon X. Obviously he'll be a villain. But since Sabretooth is the one who saved him from Hell, he could be responsible for finding Sabretooth & boosting him again as payback for saving him. He gave Sabretooth his first strength enhancement back in the 90's mini series. Wolverine stays getting power-ups. He's got hot claws now. So give Sabretooth some enhancements too and depict their fights as more competitive. Or better yet, make Sabretooth the stronger enemy who Wolverine may have to use some tactics to defeat, rather than taking him out in 5 sec.

    Anti-Hero
    In order for him to get that, it would take more time than Marvel is willing to give. With all their relaunches, constantly shuffling character to different writers, and not making writers keep consistency, it seems they don't care about development -so much as they care about events & whatever they think is the next big thing.

    Sabretooth would need to stay with one writer to do the story. Bunn said he had long plans for Sabretooth & wasn't in a hurry to revert him. But again, he lost the character.

    I think the inversion could be used as an opening to have Sabretooth working with others for more altruistic purposes, and show him developing bonds with others & getting in touch with the humanity he's tried so hard to suppress or ignore. Then take Bunn's approach, when he felt it starting to wear off in Uncanny, he decided to try & be something different. Something other than the lie his inverted self was, but something other than the monster he real self was. So as it wears off, have him determined to organically change now that he's experienced some of the positives Logan has in more full form. But won't be easy given he's been evil for around 142 years. But continuing from there with the spell wearing off, and Creed struggling to do better on his own or struggling on what he wants at all, without the magic crutch.

    And have Monet try to help him. Bunn would've made them a couple had he not lost the characters. He confirmed last year that they had feelings for each other when he says they had a torturous love. So Monet battling her dark side with Emplate's influence & Creed battling his dark side as well would've made for interesting & possibly some dark developments as they try to stay connected & motivated to face their demons together

    It would be a loooooong tale, but something like that could put Creed over the edge to being a solid anti-hero. Plus, it helps that it would be of his own effort, rather than just staying inverted by a spell forever. It works for Angel, but it'd be more authentic if Creed was organically changed. And it'd still be more development than Exiles Creed got. lol

    Where things are now. Creed is crazy & ran into the Saskatchewan woods last we saw him & Monet wondered where he was. I could see her finding him (of him finding her if he can recall her scent in that state) and her being the one to care for him while he's out of his mind. Is he reverted & evil? Is he reverted & confused? Or, is he still inverted? The second option would be best because it gives more to work with on how he responds to everything he can remember about his experiences the last few years, his feelings for Monet, and how she's tried to help him. Could create a nice start.

    Sadly with Marvel's track record, this will be wasted just to make Sabretooth Wolverine's punching-bag again. As often as he's jobbed, "arch nemesis" isn't something he deserves to be called at this point.
    This is quite impressive. Too bad you're not in charge.

    It would be pretty neat to have Marvel play with the ambiguous nature of his current state of mind, but as you pointed out it might be ignored to put him as an easy villain for Logan. Considering Wolverine's hot claws drain his healing factor, they have a prime opportunity for Creed to get a win for once. Other than that, I'm not sure where they might go with him.

    Hm, this is quite the frustrating situation.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by From The Shadows View Post
    But that was because he was still an innocent child when he formed that bond. But after that not an ounce of empathy unless it was because of AoA. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. I mean you want to enjoy the reformed Creed. That's fine. I won't spoil it for you but enjoy it while it lasts.
    There's nothing to enjoy. Lol the last pf inverted Creed we saw was from Brisson. I don't even count Pak's Weapon X, because Creed was only inverted when story called for it. Otherwise, he was the villainous, kill-happy, non-repentant, Mystique-happy loser he's been since 2003.

    With that WX ending we got, I swore off anything with Sabretooth written by the X-Office.

    I am not reading anything else with him unless I happen to hear something good. So that may be forever. Lol
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 01-27-2019 at 11:41 PM.

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Killerbee911's Avatar
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    I like AoA and reformed Creed but in world with Wolverine, X23, Daken and Poison. He won't last as hero especially with underlying rule in Marvel no matter how much a character progress forward ala Dr Doom, Emma, Magneto they will always be writer who wants to go back to "classic version". Beyond that Creed was basically "Hannibal Lector"(not eating people but the personification of evil because he is evil) him being a even a antihero consider what and how he did his stuff feels a bit wrong when you think about it. You can get noble villian from Doom or Magneto understand they may have in their mind logical reason for the bad they did,Sabertooth use to kill for fun and even with the inversion it feels weird

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    This is quite impressive. Too bad you're not in charge.

    It would be pretty neat to have Marvel play with the ambiguous nature of his current state of mind, but as you pointed out it might be ignored to put him as an easy villain for Logan. Considering Wolverine's hot claws drain his healing factor, they have a prime opportunity for Creed to get a win for once. Other than that, I'm not sure where they might go with him.

    Hm, this is quite the frustrating situation.
    The adamantium is supposed to drain his healing factor, look how well that worked. Lol

    But thanks for the praise. That's why I live off of headcanon these days. Because very seldom do I get anything good in writing. Lol

  7. #22
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    The adamantium is supposed to drain his healing factor, look how well that worked. Lol

    But thanks for the praise. That's why I live off of headcanon these days. Because very seldom do I get anything good in writing. Lol
    Well, it definitely seems unlikely, but hopefully Creed gets a moment to shine sooner rather than later. The rogues gallery of the X-men all seem to be receiving horrible treatment lately, hopefully it changes soon.
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  8. #23
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    Pak's Weapon X was the most fun X-book in a while

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    Well, it definitely seems unlikely, but hopefully Creed gets a moment to shine sooner rather than later. The rogues gallery of the X-men all seem to be receiving horrible treatment lately, hopefully it changes soon.
    Well Magneto, Emma, and Mystique all seem to be doing well. Especially Mystique who's the ultimate Villain Sue. She's just as disgusting & evil as Sabretooth, yet she rarely receives a comeuppance. She just does whatever she wants and never seems to get knocked down any pegs. And everyone just seems to welcome her with open arms.

    For example, given the crap she's done to him, Sabretooth should only ever want to eviscerate Mystique. Bunn had the right idea. Someone asked him on tumblr about the status of Creed & Mystique after Wolverines, and Bunn said he couldn't imagine they were on good terms. And I was glad to hear that because they never needed to be.

    But along came Pak, who undid & ignored every ounce of development Bunn gave Sabretooth. He was a one-note loser back to losing to Logan & kissing Mystique's ass when she came into the story.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 01-28-2019 at 07:30 AM.

  10. #25
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Well Magneto, Emma, and Mystique all seem to be doing well. Especially Mystique who's the ultimate Villain Sue. She's just as disgusting & evil as Sabretooth, yet she rarely receives a comeuppance. She just does whatever she wants and never seems to get knocked down any pegs. And everyone just seems to welcome her with open arms.

    For example, given the crap she's done to him, Sabretooth should only ever want to eviscerate Mystique. Bunn had the right idea. Someone asked him on tumblr about the status of Creed & Mystique after Wolverines, and Bunn said he couldn't imagine they were on good terms. And I was glad to hear that because they never needed to be.

    But along came Pak, who undid & ignored every ounce of development Bunn gave Sabretooth. He was a one-note loser back to losing to Logan & kissing Mystique's ass when she came into the story.
    Obviously, Victor is a masochist and this is why he keep failing in this abusive relationships, is why he is still hung up on Mystique
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  11. #26
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    Yuck. That being the case, bring back M. Bunn mentioned their love was tortuous. That way he can be a masochist w/o looking like a punk.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 01-28-2019 at 03:20 PM.

  12. #27
    Mighty Member TheDeadSpace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Well Magneto, Emma, and Mystique all seem to be doing well. Especially Mystique who's the ultimate Villain Sue. She's just as disgusting & evil as Sabretooth, yet she rarely receives a comeuppance. She just does whatever she wants and never seems to get knocked down any pegs. And everyone just seems to welcome her with open arms.

    For example, given the crap she's done to him, Sabretooth should only ever want to eviscerate Mystique. Bunn had the right idea. Someone asked him on tumblr about the status of Creed & Mystique after Wolverines, and Bunn said he couldn't imagine they were on good terms. And I was glad to hear that because they never needed to be.

    But along came Pak, who undid & ignored every ounce of development Bunn gave Sabretooth. He was a one-note loser back to losing to Logan & kissing Mystique's ass when she came into the story.
    I'm a bit mixed on the state of those three characters. At the very least, hopefully Mystique is finally taken down in Uncanny, then again that might be wishful thinking. Though after some thinking, I think Juggernaut has it the best so far.

    Well, he does seem to have at least one similarity with Cyclops. An obsession with a redhead.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDeadSpace View Post
    I'm a bit mixed on the state of those three characters. At the very least, hopefully Mystique is finally taken down in Uncanny, then again that might be wishful thinking. Though after some thinking, I think Juggernaut has it the best so far.
    Sadly Mystique is around to stay. Sad as it is to say this. Sabretooth is a second-rate villain. He's a D-List character who only serves as a Wolverine gimmick nowadays. Despite that, even he wasn't killed off for good. Loeb tried, and promptly had to retcon it.

    If Sabretooth won't stay dead, we know Mystique won't. She's a high tier villain, made a star by the X-Films. Both of which Sabretooth was an afterthought & horrible miscast. lol But then again, none of Sabretooth tv appearances were any good. The only good one was the Avengers anime.

    Well, he does seem to have at least one similarity with Cyclops. An obsession with a redhead.
    On the one hand, at least Cyclops got to fall for a redhead who loved him. Unlike Creed.

  14. #29
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    Update for Creed's next X-Book appearance.
    DzPk6-NUwAAld66.jpg
    WAR OF THE REALMS: UNCANNY X-MEN #2 (of 3)
    MATTHEW ROSENBERG (W) • PERE PEREZ (A)
    Cover by DAVID YARDIN
    Sabretooth, tired of being the X-Men’s pet, is back to his bloodthirsty ways once again. Now, joined by Malekith’s forces, he’s determined to make the X-Men bleed for him…
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 02-12-2019 at 06:59 PM.

  15. #30
    Amazing Member WildR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Update for Creed's next X-Book appearance.
    DzPk6-NUwAAld66.jpg
    WAR OF THE REALMS: UNCANNY X-MEN #2 (of 3)
    MATTHEW ROSENBERG (W) • PERE PEREZ (A)
    Cover by DAVID YARDIN
    Sabretooth, tired of being the X-Men’s pet, is back to his bloodthirsty ways once again. Now, joined by Malekith’s forces, he’s determined to make the X-Men bleed for him…
    The cover-art is cool... But Malekith's forces? Maybe I should take a look at this event.
    Now that Rosenberg's gonna write something for de-inverted Sabretooth... Maybe X-Office has decided something to some degrees.
    Anyway I'm relieved he's not gonna take part in the Logan-and-Scott's senior X-Men's story for a while.

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