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  1. #61
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As Erik Larsen (who didn't like the marriage) pointed out:

    "The biggest problem — in the future — would be that it would be hard to play some of these same notes again; that "Aunt May is too fragile to handle the truth about Peter being Spider-Man" or that "Peter needs to protect his secret identity in order to protect his loved ones" when we've seen both of those played out in print. In the latest issue -- out this week -- there's a bad guy who is on the trail of figuring out who Spider-Man is. How much suspense is there when, just two weeks ago, Spider-Man's identity being public knowledge was the status quo? After the marriage and the efforts made to undo it, why should we, as readers, believe any relationship he has in the future will ever lead to him getting married again? They're pretty much told the readers that Peter's life is never going to progress past a certain point."

    OMD isn't the illusion of change...it's the end of change. It means that Peter Parker is trapped forever in the Truman Show...only it's worse. Truman eventually got out, but Peter never will. So it's like the end of Terry Gilliam's Brazil, Peter is basically in some dream simulation of groundhog day-like loops and he can never get out. So it makes the entire story depressing no matter what the writers behind it do. 616 Continuity is tainted forever thanks to OMD.



    Except that's a bold-faced lie. There are at very least 911 issues published overall in Spider-Man's 616 continuity showing Peter and MJ in a relationship, and 810 Issues, the vast majority shows them as a married couple. In terms of content, volume, material, and sales, the marriage did not lock the book into any particular kind of story. Again this is Post-Internet...Peter and Mary Jane are the greatest and best documented love story in the comics. There's way more stories showing them together than as a romance, far more so than Lois and Clark (who only got married and in relationship in the Post-Crisis era and that's far shorter than Peter and MJ). We already know that this relationship worked, that it doesn't stop Spider-Man from being Spider-Man and so on. Most Spider-Man and MJ content, in both 616 and AU is them being married and not unmarried.



    Except the ones where Peter and MJ are married. Except that. The Post-OMIT lie that all the stories happened with them being single simply doesn't make sense. A marriage is an entirely different emotional commitment by its very nature. And JMD himself said Kraven's Last Hunt simply would not have the emotional impact it did without the marriage.



    Exactly...Mephisto does not belong in any Spider-Man story. The only reason for him to be there Post-OMD is to remind everyone about OMD...so let's drop this faux-naive, his appearance in Miles' story has nothing to do with OMD or there's an actual story here
    No offense, but that sounds intensely dramatic.
    No, OMD is not the "end of change." It's another story that regresses a character, yes, but you can say the same for Batman after Final Crisis and Return of Bruce Wayne, Superman when he came back, and so many more. Marriage, life, death...none of these characters will progress past a certain point. It's the way it is. I don't quite like it myself, but I've made peace with it. But to say one story solidified the end of that change is just...bizarre. Peter was literally the same age as he was when he first married Mary Jane twenty years prior to OMD, but someone OMD was the end?
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  2. #62
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    I'm just waiting for that OMD dirtbag to get his due. Dr. Strange wasn't enough for me.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As Erik Larsen (who didn't like the marriage) pointed out:

    "The biggest problem — in the future — would be that it would be hard to play some of these same notes again; that "Aunt May is too fragile to handle the truth about Peter being Spider-Man" or that "Peter needs to protect his secret identity in order to protect his loved ones" when we've seen both of those played out in print. In the latest issue -- out this week -- there's a bad guy who is on the trail of figuring out who Spider-Man is. How much suspense is there when, just two weeks ago, Spider-Man's identity being public knowledge was the status quo? After the marriage and the efforts made to undo it, why should we, as readers, believe any relationship he has in the future will ever lead to him getting married again? They're pretty much told the readers that Peter's life is never going to progress past a certain point."

    OMD isn't the illusion of change...it's the end of change. It means that Peter Parker is trapped forever in the Truman Show...only it's worse. Truman eventually got out, but Peter never will. So it's like the end of Terry Gilliam's Brazil, Peter is basically in some dream simulation of groundhog day-like loops and he can never get out. So it makes the entire story depressing no matter what the writers behind it do. 616 Continuity is tainted forever thanks to OMD.
    No.

    Here's a newsflash: no comic character's life - at least no character who's part of an ongoing, serialized universe - is ever going to progress past a certain point.

    If Peter and MJ were married, they would be forever frozen as a couple in their late 20s. They wouldn't go through all the phases of married life together, they'd just hang in an eternal limbo.

    In ten, twenty, thirty years or more - all these characters will still be pretty much the age they are now. And that's true also of DC characters or Archie Comics characters. These characters aren't meant to age and evolve.

    We do have the very intriguing mini from Chip D'Zarsky coming this year that will show Peter aging in real time but that's the only way you'll ever see something like that - in an out-of-continuity, alt-universe take on the characters.

    That's as true of Spider-Man as it is of Batman, Superman, Captain America, Thor, and so on. This is not a OMD thing, it's a comics thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Except that's a bold-faced lie. There are at very least 911 issues published overall in Spider-Man's 616 continuity showing Peter and MJ in a relationship, and 810 Issues, the vast majority shows them as a married couple. In terms of content, volume, material, and sales, the marriage did not lock the book into any particular kind of story. Again this is Post-Internet...Peter and Mary Jane are the greatest and best documented love story in the comics. There's way more stories showing them together than as a romance, far more so than Lois and Clark (who only got married and in relationship in the Post-Crisis era and that's far shorter than Peter and MJ). We already know that this relationship worked, that it doesn't stop Spider-Man from being Spider-Man and so on. Most Spider-Man and MJ content, in both 616 and AU is them being married and not unmarried.
    I think fans of Clark Kent and Lois Lane would have a bit to say about those claims.

    And, again, having Peter and MJ actually married is much different than having them either separate or dating.

    No one would argue against the idea of Peter and MJ being destined to be together - it's just more fun, and spurs more storylines, to leave that for the future.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Except the ones where Peter and MJ are married. Except that. The Post-OMIT lie that all the stories happened with them being single simply doesn't make sense. A marriage is an entirely different emotional commitment by its very nature. And JMD himself said Kraven's Last Hunt simply would not have the emotional impact it did without the marriage.
    Lucky, then, that the marriage is still in that story.

    As readers, we can still read all the stories where Peter and MJ are a married couple and enjoy them as they were written.

    Marvel hasn't stolen them, re-edited them, or done anything to purge them from existence.

    That the characters don't remember being married in current continuity does nothing to erase those past stories.

    And they are still a part of their continuity, so the history isn't gone - only that any reference to those past stories wouldn't specifically mention the marriage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Exactly...Mephisto does not belong in any Spider-Man story. The only reason for him to be there Post-OMD is to remind everyone about OMD...so let's drop this faux-naive, his appearance in Miles' story has nothing to do with OMD or there's an actual story here
    Why wouldn't there be an actual story there?

    All we've seen so far is a cliffhanger ending. I imagine Zub absolutely has a story to tell.

    I don't think Mephisto will have much connection to OMD outside of his presence being a knowing wink to OMD.

    The reference may be intentional but I expect it's all in the name of having a bit of fun, not about directly linking Peter's story and Miles.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 01-04-2019 at 11:12 AM.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    No offense, but that sounds intensely dramatic.
    It was intended to.

    It's also the truth. Sometimes the truth is dramatic.

    No, OMD is not the "end of change." It's another story that regresses a character, yes, but you can say the same for Batman after Final Crisis and Return of Bruce Wayne, Superman when he came back, and so many more.
    DC and Marvel are not the same thing.

    The Batman and Superman you refer to are Post-Crisis incarnations not in any intended to be continuous to the characters seen in the Silver Age, or for that matter the Golden Age. What DC do is the continuity reboot thing so that means that the version of characters that readers know and so on remain unaltered...and the new versions are basically new characters. New 52 Superman and his supporting cast isn't the same character as the Post-Crisis Superman. Basically Silver Age Superman/Post-Crisis Superman and New 52 Superman have the same relation that 616 Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-man have to each other, only difference is that DC go all the way and make their Ultimate version the default state for a while...

    In the case of Marvel, they are obsessed, fanatically so, to keep continuity to the Lee-Kirby-Ditko era, or what they think is continuity or you know simply outright lie doing so. To achieve that and maintain that they basically violated and destroyed the classic Spider-Man while pretending and lying to have done so. In terms of publication history, Post-OMD Spider-Man has no direct ties to the Spider-Man of Amazing Fantasy #15. The Married Spider-Man does...and when they erased that marriage and basically created this utter piece of crap explanation, they pretty much created their own Post-Crisis Spider-Man...except without the satisfaction, freshness, and hope that the John Byrne Man of Steel and Post-Crisis DC era actually started with.

  5. #65
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    It was intended to.

    It's also the truth. Sometimes the truth is dramatic.



    DC and Marvel are not the same thing.

    The Batman and Superman you refer to are Post-Crisis incarnations not in any intended to be continuous to the characters seen in the Silver Age, or for that matter the Golden Age. What DC do is the continuity reboot thing so that means that the version of characters that readers know and so on remain unaltered...and the new versions are basically new characters. New 52 Superman and his supporting cast isn't the same character as the Post-Crisis Superman. Basically Silver Age Superman/Post-Crisis Superman and New 52 Superman have the same relation that 616 Spider-Man and Ultimate Spider-man have to each other, only difference is that DC go all the way and make their Ultimate version the default state for a while...

    In the case of Marvel, they are obsessed, fanatically so, to keep continuity to the Lee-Kirby-Ditko era, or what they think is continuity or you know simply outright lie doing so. To achieve that and maintain that they basically violated and destroyed the classic Spider-Man while pretending and lying to have done so. In terms of publication history, Post-OMD Spider-Man has no direct ties to the Spider-Man of Amazing Fantasy #15. The Married Spider-Man does...and when they erased that marriage and basically created this utter piece of crap explanation, they pretty much created their own Post-Crisis Spider-Man...except without the satisfaction, freshness, and hope that the John Byrne Man of Steel and Post-Crisis DC era actually started with.
    Wow.
    Just....wow.
    I have no words. I think Prof. Warren spoke all that I need to say on this subject.
    I just...I can't fathom any of this.
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  6. #66
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LordUltimus View Post
    For a company that insists we should move on from this story, they sure keep bringing it up again.
    A valid point. As said in another Disney property, let the past die already.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  7. #67
    Incredible Member Unspeakable Evil's Avatar
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    You know I expected a discussion on how this effects Miles and the Champions and yet we're here talking about Peter and OMD....

  8. #68
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    A valid point. As said in another Disney property, let the past die already.
    AGREED!!!
    (10 chars)
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  9. #69
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unspeakable Evil View Post
    You know I expected a discussion on how this effects Miles and the Champions and yet we're here talking about Peter and OMD....
    What can I say? OMD ruins everything.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    What can I say? OMD ruins everything.
    Agreed, fam.
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  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    A valid point. As said in another Disney property, let the past die already.
    TLJ is the OMD of Star Wars movies.

  12. #72
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebSlingWonder View Post
    Agreed, fam.
    The only thing many people seem to get upset about more (than OMD) on this forum is my idea for either resurrecting OG Gwen or an AU in which she did not die. No offense to Mary Jane fans, and Peter/MJ shippers especially, but some of you guys & girls take this stuff far too seriously.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  13. #73
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    TLJ is the OMD of Star Wars movies.
    Are you kidding me right now??
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  14. #74
    Astonishing Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miles To Go View Post
    TLJ is the OMD of Star Wars movies.
    Nice reference catch. Although I used the line in a more positive fashion.

    Edit - I actually was not all that bothered by the plot of the Last Jedi; at least the part about the Force not necessarily requiring a Skywalker or a Kenobi to find new heroes.
    Last edited by Celgress; 01-04-2019 at 11:36 AM.
    "I'm sorry, but your story isn't adding up. I think your religion is a lie to keep my mouth shut."

  15. #75
    Spider-Fan Since '95 WebSlingWonder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    The only thing many people seem to get upset about more (than OMD) on this forum is my idea for either resurrecting OG Gwen or an AU in which she did not die. No offense to Mary Jane fans, and Peter/MJ shippers especially, but some of you guys & girls take this stuff far too seriously.
    So unfortunately true.
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