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  1. #2296
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    Critics have no balls. That’s it. They said it was “fantastic” because saying anything else to the vocal minority woke audience who “embraced” Jane Fosthor (then unceremoniously dropped her as the sales prove) risked their careers. Jane Fosthor SJWs don’t have jobs and spend most of their time on twitter and other social media. The very social media that today’s critics rely on to make a living. It’s either say this is great or have a 100 woke children destroy their careers.

    All the other “long time” Thor fans that defended it just jumped on to the train to feel accepted or to feel part of a generation that doesn’t regard them anymore. Sad. Painful. But, true....

  2. #2297
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    I agree, that we shouldn't take critic's words as gospel; however, there are a vocal minority that really play up the whole "disrespectful" angle with Aaron which to me rings hollow and inauthentic.

    That's not to say that people have their own tastes, but said vocal minority take such offense that they act as if Aaron took their manly father figure and replaced him with a weak, effeminate figure.
    Yeah, that's certainly true. God only knows how many 'Men's Rights' a-holes out there see one step forward for women as five steps back for men, and many of those people opposed Jane Thor for that reason alone.

    For me, Aaron's worse sin is his inability to pull off anything he set up. The War of the Realms was no epic, the reveal of Thor's unworthiness, Jane wielding the hammer, etc. Worse, scratch the surface, and you see some unfortunate implications (I could write an essay on the unfortunate implications of Thor's unworthiness)

    In terms of concept, he's excellent. In terms of execution, he kills it. In a bad way.

  3. #2298
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    Yeah, that's certainly true. God only knows how many 'Men's Rights' a-holes out there see one step forward for women as five steps back for men, and many of those people opposed Jane Thor for that reason alone.

    Yeah, this is the ugly side of comic book fandom in particular that embarrasses me, when the mainstream think of basement dwellers harassing people this is what they think of. It's unfortunate, that we all get lumped into this group.


    Quote Originally Posted by The Cool Thatguy View Post
    For me, Aaron's worse sin is his inability to pull off anything he set up. The War of the Realms was no epic, the reveal of Thor's unworthiness, Jane wielding the hammer, etc. Worse, scratch the surface, and you see some unfortunate implications (I could write an essay on the unfortunate implications of Thor's unworthiness)

    In terms of concept, he's excellent. In terms of execution, he kills it. In a bad way.



    I agree more and more with this sentiment, especially when you dig even a little bit about the idea of Unworthiness.

    I feel like he was given the order from editorial that Marvel is moving toward the All New All Different movement and that he needed to get Thor off the board by any means necessary and because of that it feels half baked.

    Because I swear to gods I still don't know what qualities make Jane worthy.

    However, Aaron's Mighty Thor run was sublime especially if you divorce it from the larger Thor mythology.

    War of The Realms needed to be more, it was popcorn fun that didn't have the headiness that most events have, hell, The God Butcher arc was more epic then War of The Realms.

  4. #2299
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    Quote Originally Posted by THORPERION View Post
    Critics have no balls. That’s it. They said it was “fantastic” because saying anything else to the vocal minority woke audience who “embraced” Jane Fosthor (then unceremoniously dropped her as the sales prove) risked their careers. Jane Fosthor SJWs don’t have jobs and spend most of their time on twitter and other social media. The very social media that today’s critics rely on to make a living. It’s either say this is great or have a 100 woke children destroy their careers.

    All the other “long time” Thor fans that defended it just jumped on to the train to feel accepted or to feel part of a generation that doesn’t regard them anymore. Sad. Painful. But, true....
    When I wondered why the haters of Aaron's run are so steadfast in their animosity in light of its success, I forgot how deeply threatened these people are. Everything they hate is perceived as being part of a SJW conspiracy and anyone who supports it is either a) part of the conspiracy or b) lacks the courage to fight the SJW conspiracy.

    The sane response of "I don't like this but, hey 'different strokes'." just wouldn't occur to them.

  5. #2300
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    When I wondered why the haters of Aaron's run are so steadfast in their animosity in light of its success, I forgot how deeply threatened these people are. Everything they hate is perceived as being part of a SJW conspiracy and anyone who supports it is either a) part of the conspiracy or b) lacks the courage to fight the SJW conspiracy.

    The sane response of "I don't like this but, hey 'different strokes'." just wouldn't occur to them.
    I've been down this road brother, only thing to do is to engage with posters that are worth engaging with.

  6. #2301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    When I wondered why the haters of Aaron's run are so steadfast in their animosity in light of its success, I forgot how deeply threatened these people are. Everything they hate is perceived as being part of a SJW conspiracy and anyone who supports it is either a) part of the conspiracy or b) lacks the courage to fight the SJW conspiracy.

    The sane response of "I don't like this but, hey 'different strokes'." just wouldn't occur to them.
    And maybe if you keep accusing anybody who dares to criticize Aaron of being sexist enough times it'll actually become true. Until then people will continue to criticize his run because it's dog shit. And if financial success is a measure of quality to you, you must absolutely love Rob Liefield's work.

  7. #2302
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post

    I agree more and more with this sentiment, especially when you dig even a little bit about the idea of Unworthiness.

    I feel like he was given the order from editorial that Marvel is moving toward the All New All Different movement and that he needed to get Thor off the board by any means necessary and because of that it feels half baked.
    The timelines don’t work here. It’s retro thinking. ANAD’s move (which has loads of unreconstructed rhetoric aimed at it but was mostly overturned for wider editorial reasons*) was influenced by Jane as Thor, Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel, not the other way around. Characters that have survived throughout the changes.

    Because I swear to gods I still don't know what qualities make Jane worthy.
    It’s not that hard. Selflessness in the face of necessity. If any point was hammered home again and again it was this.

    * Marvel employed Alonso as EiC to specifically widen their audience and push a modern indy influenced story first philosophy. Then, during an economic challenge and calls from a very vocal block of retailers to go back to basics they sought to change tack, which failed utterly. Alonso either walked or was pushed but either way he was being asked to go against his principles when he failed.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-23-2019 at 04:48 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  8. #2303
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    If Aaron wrote this the way people who criticise the run say he should’ve wrote it...the run would have been boring. He took big risks with the entirety of the “Unworthy” Thor and Jane. If he didn’t, there’d be nothing to talk about.

    I look forward to reading the run from start to finish. I’m sure there’s some good and there’s some bad. But that’s comics.

  9. #2304
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    If Aaron wrote this the way people who criticise the run say he should’ve wrote it...the run would have been boring. He took big risks with the entirety of the “Unworthy” Thor and Jane. If he didn’t, there’d be nothing to talk about.

    I look forward to reading the run from start to finish. I’m sure there’s some good and there’s some bad. But that’s comics.
    It would have been highly predictable and just a rehash of every other redemption story ever written. We would have had half the focus on a struggling Thor slowly building his confidence and undertaking quests. I suspect people would have complained even louder.

    We have often compared this story to Knightfall. It is interesting to note that in recent interviews the original plan for Knightfall was to totally move Batman off of the board. It was corporate interference that led to Bruce Wane’s frankly pointless arc. That wasn’t what the story was supposed to be about. It is the biggest reason why I don’t find Knightfall a satisfying story. I know fans love it, but it undercuts it’s own messages.
    Last edited by JKtheMac; 08-23-2019 at 05:08 AM.
    “And I urge you to please notice when you are happy, and exclaim or murmur or think at some point, 'If this isn't nice, I don't know what is.” ― Kurt Vonnegut Jr.

  10. #2305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha to Omega View Post
    And maybe if you keep accusing anybody who dares to criticize Aaron of being sexist enough times it'll actually become true. Until then people will continue to criticize his run because it's dog shit. And if financial success is a measure of quality to you, you must absolutely love Rob Liefield's work.
    Financial success along with critical success along with widespread fan enthusiasm sustained over the course of years is a solid indicator that a run is, you know, good.

    Doesn't mean it's still to everyone's taste but it makes sense to concede its quality.

    Saying Aaron's Thor run is "dog shit" in the face of its success and acceptance on so many fronts is as ridiculous as saying Ewing's Immortal Hulk run is dog shit.

    But in the case of Aaron's Thor, its haters are incensed past the point of rationality. Some fans may not like it just because they just don't like it in the way that some people just don't like, say, chocolate ice cream.

    But those aren't the fans who are most vocal about their disdain for Aaron's Thor. Instead it's the ones who angrily rant over and over about SJW agendas and "woke" readers following social trends and that, really, no one actually likes the book at all - that critics are just too afraid of being ostracized to say it sucks and fans who say they like it are only cowards looking to hop on a bandwagon.

    That all seems like a pretty crazy position to take, doesn't it? Especially when just accepting the plain reality that something you don't like happens to be popular ought to be easy.

    Certainly easier than clinging to the idea that a run's success is all just one big conspiracy.

  11. #2306
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    The timelines don’t work here. It’s retro thinking. ANAD’s move (which has loads of unreconstructed rhetoric aimed at it but was mostly overturned for wider editorial reasons*) was influenced by Jane as Thor, Squirrel Girl and Ms. Marvel, not the other way around. Characters that have survived throughout the changes.

    It’s not that hard. Selflessness in the face of necessity. If any point was hammered home again and again it was this.

    * Marvel employed Alonso as EiC to specifically widen their audience and push a modern indy influenced story first philosophy. Then, during an economic challenge and calls from a very vocal block of retailers to go back to basics they sought to change tack, which failed utterly. Alonso either walked or was pushed but either way he was being asked to go against his principles when he failed.
    Oh snap, so ANAD was after Jane? I always thought it was concurrent, at this point in my comic reading I was only reading DC, so forgive my ignorance.

    True, Jane was and is selfless, but so is every other Marvel hero; even Unworthy Thor. So, for me Jane's worthiness is still very opaque because Thor was Worthy and Godly, but Jane was human and selfless?

    So, going back to basics failed? Was this the "Marvel Legacy" era?

  12. #2307
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by your_name_here View Post
    If Aaron wrote this the way people who criticise the run say he should’ve wrote it...the run would have been boring. He took big risks with the entirety of the “Unworthy” Thor and Jane. If he didn’t, there’d be nothing to talk about.

    I look forward to reading the run from start to finish. I’m sure there’s some good and there’s some bad. But that’s comics.
    Same, I cannot wait to read this all from beginning to end. This was the first book that I read monthly before Aaron I used to always trade wait, to me that speaks to the energy that he brought to Thor.

  13. #2308
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    Oh snap, so ANAD was after Jane? I always thought it was concurrent, at this point in my comic reading I was only reading DC, so forgive my ignorance.
    Jane became Thor only eight issues before Secret Wars forced a relaunch. So she's just barely pre-ANAD. Her book was part of a series of relaunches called Avengers NOW, which also included All-New Captain America (which starred Sam Wilson).

    Preview of Thor #16:
    https://www.cbr.com/preview-thor-16-...marvel-comics/

    But isn't Hercules' presence a continuity error? He left Earth at the end of Avengers: No Road Home, which took place simultaneously with the vampire arc in Aaron's Avengers before War of the Realms.

  14. #2309
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    Quote Originally Posted by JKtheMac View Post
    It would have been highly predictable and just a rehash of every other redemption story ever written. We would have had half the focus on a struggling Thor slowly building his confidence and undertaking quests. I suspect people would have complained even louder.

    We have often compared this story to Knightfall. It is interesting to note that in recent interviews the original plan for Knightfall was to totally move Batman off of the board. It was corporate interference that led to Bruce Wane’s frankly pointless arc. That wasn’t what the story was supposed to be about. It is the biggest reason why I don’t find Knightfall a satisfying story. I know fans love it, but it undercuts it’s own messages.
    I'd like a cliche redemptive arc over no meaningful redemptive arc whatsoever. But, in fairness, its hard to have a character redeem himself over the opinion of someone else.

    Thor defaulted back to his position, he did not reclaim it. Defaulting back isn't character development, nor a journey, but is a lack thereof.

  15. #2310
    Incredible Member charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Jane became Thor only eight issues before Secret Wars forced a relaunch. So she's just barely pre-ANAD. Her book was part of a series of relaunches called Avengers NOW, which also included All-New Captain America (which starred Sam Wilson).

    Preview of Thor #16:
    https://www.cbr.com/preview-thor-16-...marvel-comics/

    But isn't Hercules' presence a continuity error? He left Earth at the end of Avengers: No Road Home, which took place simultaneously with the vampire arc in Aaron's Avengers before War of the Realms.
    Ah, thanks for the clarification. So to be generous one can say that Jane does come from that ANAD mandate, even though she arrive a few months earlier.

    Talk about a crazy experiment with all of those new characters and status quo. I wonder if they simply made a new Ultimate Universe after Secret Wars we could have saved that status quo to tell more original stories and also keep the original 616 universe with the classic characters.

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