How much of Young Thor have we seen, before Aaron? I remember reading a few stories but not in detail. As I remember it ( which could be wrong: bad memory, read too many comics, you know the deal) he was basically showing his wild oats. He saw Earth as an interesting diversion, liked our women, and hey, some of us worship him, so that's nice. He was, in the stories I remember, doing the same things we see under Aaron (with a lot less mead references).
Even taking the specific writers out of it.. Just look at the idea. He comes down, fights with a group of humans, beds a woman or two, and leaves. What about the humans on the other side? Is any of that noble?
Again, this is young Thor. Our Thor, adult Thor, is a different story.
I really don't think he was ever depicted the way Aaron has because it was in such a Jason Aaron way.
I don't remember him acting like that in the mini with a Young Thor that existed a while back, which I think was in line with their take on Young Thor in that Tales of Asgard animated movie (which I vastly prefer to Aaron's Young Thor).
No. And it really doesn't sound like Thor, to me.Even taking the specific writers out of it.. Just look at the idea. He comes down, fights with a group of humans, beds a woman or two, and leaves. What about the humans on the other side? Is any of that noble?
I think the differences became less pronounced over the course of Aaron's run.Again, this is young Thor. Our Thor, adult Thor, is a different story.
Hah, yeah, I know what you mean by "in an Aaron way". He had a certain tone for some characters in his marvel stuff. Which is so wildly different than much of his other work. But in any case, I know what you mean.
I thought young Thor mingling with mortals in the past was well established, prior to Aaron? Putting aside depictions or characterizations for a moment... he fought and mingled with humans on Earth? Am I misremembering?
Agree the differences became less pronounced, in some ways. He was spiraling and hitting bottom. He didn't care about how he looked to others so he stopped putting up a front. He regressed for a variety of reasons.
He's interacted with humans but it was a little more...tasteful.
I think the issue is in thinking of it as a front. He shouldn't be that person anymore.Agree the differences became less pronounced, in some ways. He was spiraling and hitting bottom. He didn't care about how he looked to others so he stopped putting up a front. He regressed for a variety of reasons.
Step 1: Thor is already worthy because he's a good guy.
Step 2: Thor fights a villain who proclaims the cruelty and unworthiness of gods, planting the idea in his head
Why would he care? He's dismissed Thanos, a one shot villain shouldn't phase him.
Step 3: The belief is affirmed by someone all-knowing, the doubt becomes real
Thor isn't Captain America, he isn't true companions with Fury, so he wouldn't trust him that much.
Besides that, why would Fury rob a founding Avenger of his most powerful weapon, to win a meaningless brawl?
Step 4: Thor's doubt of Gods causes him to believe he shouldn't have the power, so he can't, throwing his identity in flux because he's the same person but believes that his entire life was wrong because of his species-guilt as a privileged, unworthy god and that he has to be something more
...or, the hammer 'legitimizes' Thor's opinion of himself while he's gripped in depression. That ain't a great message.
So many talk about Thor 'redeeming himself', while ignoring the obvious elephant in the room.
Thor didn't do anything. At all. When a person needs to be redeemed, it is for their actions.
Not their race.
Step 5: Thor goes back to work regardless of this issue, which is why he can lift the Mjolnir chip
So basically, he goes back to his regular characterization.
Step 6: By throwing away the chip, Thor abandons the entire quest to do the right thing so he can end the war
Do the right thing, because it is the right thing, is basic Thor.
Step 7: Which allows him to learn that he doesn't need to reach some higher idea of worthiness, he needs to be the best he can be in spite of that, knowing that he isn't perfect or the idea of "worthy" that is perfection, but that the struggle to try and live up to it anyway is what gives you the real power
Step 8: This increased knowledge gives Thor the full power of the hammer that no one's ever had
Step 0.5: The first time he lifts it in today's tie-in is when he forgets about being worthy and just tries to do his best to save his mom, before deciding to be satisfied the way he is whether he has it or not
Prior to Aaron, Thor was never this obsessed with his hammer. So again, a return to basics
Which is the best we can hope for, at this point
I would've honestly though Thor had reconciled his opinion on the role of gods by the time he and the other Thor's beat Gorr to be honest.
To me, the interactions are the thing. I hear you on the different depictions in regard to taste, but just the choice to come down and mingle, kill and sleep with humans and the issues that presents is enough to build a story on. It raises all the questions I've asked and Aaron asked. Or, you could look at it as seeing a side of him we haven't seen before, because we only saw the hero worship that humans gave to him... I'm pretty sure humans and gods have some youthful actions we aren't keen on advertising or focusing on. We saw some of his either for the first time or from a different perspective.
I don't think it was a front at the time, to HIM, because he had built up (with the help of human worshippers) this heroic image of himself. Once he had his self image shattered and questioned the previously unquestioned, he recognized the front. But for most of the time we saw "our" Thor, no, it wasn't a front to him. "It's not a lie if YOU believe it".
I really don't think a crass, violent, and carousing Thor is how he would act with humans. At least the way Aaron depicted it. Because he does come off more like Hercules.
Like, there were some stories in "The Trial of Thor" trade that I think captured how Thor would interact with early humans in a more in-character way.
I don't see how "hero worship" comes into it. On-page if Thor is acting as a hero for altruistic reasons, then people's response to him shouldn't matter. Obviously with Aaron's Young Thor he acts in a way where he gets all this praise and love without really earning or caring about it but he's the exception compared to most depictions of Thor who care and value Midgard more readily because they're much more compassionate and noble.
And, really, from the sound of it how Young Thor acted really didn't have anything to do with the moral of the story anyways. It's just an Aaron protagonist being an Aaron protagonist.
I dunno. I think Thor is a hero because he's a hero and not because he cared about being worshiped. Because he wants to help people, defend the worlds he loves, and is a good person. So it's not a lie because it's not a lie .I don't think it was a front at the time, to HIM, because he had built up (with the help of human worshippers) this heroic image of himself. Once he had his self image shattered and questioned the previously unquestioned, he recognized the front. But for most of the time we saw "our" Thor, no, it wasn't a front to him. "It's not a lie if YOU believe it".
Maybe in the abstract Aaron was getting into how people see or look at Thor but at the core I don't think that (or human worshipers) had anything to do with the story.
"Sir, does this mean that Ann Margret's not coming?"
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"One of the maddening but beautiful things about comics is that you have to give characters a sense of change without changing them so much that they violate the essence of who they are." ~ Ann Nocenti, Chris Claremont's X-Men.
I think it's good that we can both read the same thing and have different takeaways as to what's important and why. To me it says that the story didn't overly explain or put forth one "right" way to read it. We can both make good cases for our viewpoints and they're both totally valid. I also think it's inevitable that a story with such huge abstract concepts that lack one singular definition (worthiness, the role of gods and religion, selfless acts existing or not, how much past actions define us, and a slew of others) is going to read many different ways depending on how you feel about those things.